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Post 40

Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 5:49pmSanction this postReply
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I'm not trying to mix it up. Simply attempting to provide realistic examples for each fellow to analyze and react to. "If such and such a person was in front of you, looking you in the eye, would it be moral to regard them as non-human? And therefore, without rights? Including the right to life?" These folks have clearly reached whatever conclusion they are going to reach on the matter, and have decided what qualifies as a right-possessing entity. So. Decide. Hypotheticals can be hazy, nondescript, unrealistic fantasies, sometimes not worth the time it takes to read them. But I have given realistic examples of people who definitely exist in our world.
Life is beautiful in itself. No more complex system exists that we know of. Study it, understand it and provide for it. Try not to advocate killing it because it's not sentient; if you have to kill, a rational reason must exist. Would it be rational to kill a mouse, for the sake of killing it? You may argue, "Fine, the rational reason I advocate abortion is because I don't wish to sacrifice my life for another's i.e. a child's." Well, where were the rational precautions one can take to prevent pregnancy? If those fail, why not let the child be adopted? Too much effort? Too taxing on the body and mind? Well, no act is without cost. To think otherwise is the premise of mysticism. The folks above have certainly presented well-rounded arguments as to what contitutes "human". Well, what would they do with those constitutions? Abortion smacks of an "easy way out" to a complex problem, but I am still undecided over this issue.
As such, I won't tell a woman not to have an abortion. Nor will I say to her, "I know for certain the child within you is a parasite...a boil...so lance it if you like." In fact, I'll remain silent on the issue unless addressed further.
J



Post 41

Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 5:56pmSanction this postReply
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But wait...not quite yet...another question....is abortion a moral issue at all??? You said yourself atlascott, "No one would argue abortion is 'good'". So is it evil? Is it within a grey moral area? Those don't exist, do they? Can abortion be considered a moral issue only by those who think it is evil?
Cheers,
J



Post 42

Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 6:05pmSanction this postReply
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In response to Jeremy, I can't think of a condition where a man would be permanently and consistently reduced the state of an animal without any vestiges of rationality whatsoever. In such a case, you would treat him like one. Bear in mind, it doesn't follow that if something has no rights, we kill it. We don't kill animals because they have no rights, we kill them because they're required for human survival and prosperity.

Rights aren't axiomatic nor are they mystically entwined with human DNA; they're social principles arising only in the context of human interaction. (There’s no rights when you’re alone on a desert island.) The right to life only applies to life (self-sustaining/self-generating) and only to human (rational animal) life. If it's not a self-sustaining/self-generating animal with the capacity for rationality, then there's no right to life! No capacity for rationality? No right to life – it’s not human. Not self-sustaining/self-generating? No right to life – it’s not a life. I hope this is clear, because it’s the crux of this whole debate.

When we talk about "potential life," we're talking about the potential to be self-sustaining and self-generating. We can't talk about "potential rationality" because that's entirely a function of free will and individual consciousness. A person has to choose to be rational. Biology can't tell us whether you'll be rational or not. All it can tell us is that if you're human, you have the capacity for rationality, not that you will be.

I agree with you that life is beautiful and sacred, but it’s important to identify why and what life is and what it is not.

g.



Post 43

Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 6:27pmSanction this postReply
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And on the "is abortion good or evil?" question, there is no inherent morality in an action without context. You could ask, "Is eating good?" Well, if you're eating nothing but sugar and fat six times a day, then, no, this instance of eating is not good. "Is sex good?" Well, if you're having unprotected sex with diseased hookers five times a week while taking intravenous drugs with a dirty needle and wielding a loaded weapon, then, no, this instance of sex is not good. “Is abortion good?” Well, if it’s a means of birth control you undertake every month with a rusty coat hanger, then, no.

The standard should be, “Will this action be conducive to my life in the long term?” If the answer is yes, then it’s good. An unwanted pregnancy is at best inconvenient and worst downright crippling to a woman’s life, therefore, a safe abortion is a value, is good, considering the alternative. Without trivializing the complexities and emotions involved, it’s rather like a filling a cavity. No one likes doing it, but it’s for the best in the long term.

g.

P.S. This section provides plenty of answers to basic questions of the nature of morality and context.

Okay, I'm done with this, already! :)



Post 44

Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 7:47pmSanction this postReply
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MR. REED: An appeal to man to act against his nature by NOT changing inconvenient features of the happenstance "natural order" cannot be justified except by ascribing "natural law" to something allegedly "higher" than man, such as God. Which is, unfortunately, the unstated basis of Stolyarov's argument. By failing to acknowledge that it is in accordance with Man's nature to change the nature of other things, Stolyarov is bringing God in through the back orifice.

MR. STOLYAROV: I have used Natural Law to state that a certain process will be carried through without intervention, not that man cannot or that it is not within his nature to intervene. The only reason why man must not intervene here, is not because he is disrupting an inexorable process, but because of the result of that inexorable process, i.e. a living human being. This does not deny the capacity for man to intervene per se nor the desirability of him doing so in other situations. So, this still does not link to a God.

MR. REED: But an _idea_ can only exist in a conscious, functioning mind. In whose mind, then, does the fetus already exist as "the idea of the particular mind in full?" Certainly in no human mind, since no human mind has examined its "unique genetic scheme" at this point. So this other base of Stolyarov's structure also inserts his God into the back orifice of the argument, as the only mind in which this "idea of the particular mind in full" could conceivably exist.

MR. STOLYAROV: I am surprised to see an Objectivist write this. Remember, Mr. Reed, that existence and existents are absolute, that were every possible observer wiped from the face of this Earth, the existents he would have observed would continue to exist. To say that a mind has to exist to perceive DNA is to say that knowledge is generated by the mind, which is entirely relativistic. In fact, knowledge exists outside the mind, as does the concept of the universe, the concept of rationality, and the concept that the DNA will inexorably lead to the creation of a human being with time.

MR. REED: Then Stolyarov inserts God into the argument a third time, asserting that the DNA of the fetus has the moral status of an inventor's blueprint for a product, so that "if you entered the factory and burned the blueprint, you would already be guilty of property and patent violations." Against whom? In the case of a real blueprint, against the designer. But in fact there is no designer, since the DNA is the product of a process of random evolutionary accidents. So whose property is being infringed in the case of abortion? Again, the only possible answer is the God in Stolyarov's back orifice.

MR. STOLYAROV: Recall, Mr. Reed, that this is where I had stated the analogy was shaky. The child (see my earlier posts and references to Locke) possesses a property in himself. (No two issues are quite the same. Every analogy will diverge and become irrelevant at some point, so it is helpful to know where that point is so that no misunderstandings are had.)

MR. ZUMA: Something is a potential not because it might not be actualized but only because it hasn’t been actualized. Even if a change is unavoidable, what an entity will become, strictly speaking, is still only a potential until it becomes what it will become. Usually, we focus on cases where there are alternatives – obviously we can deliberate about the alternatives. However, the concept of potential is one that integrates identity and change – not identity and chance.

MR. STOLYAROV: But do you not concur that there is an essential difference between an event toward which there is a multitude of pathways and an event toward which there is only one? To a passive spectator, it is the difference between the possible and the inevitable. Hence, a conceptual distinction must be rendered between the two. You seem to use the term "potential" to refer to anything that may or will occur in the future. I use "potential" as a subcategory of your term. Let us agree on nomenclature. In physics, potential energy is the energy of an object in a set position. The object does not move, but if it starts (in any given direction) we can calculate its velocity, and the distance it will travel. So, potential should define only those instances where the direction is not yet evident, where there are many occurrences. I think the larger term that encompasses potential and futuristic certainty should be not "potential" but rather "event" or "happening," because this is the level of breadth required to encompass the two.

MR. ZUMA: And I accept that. Now, let’s add another point that hopefully we both agree: a potential exists only in virtue of some actual. For the case of the fetus, it is the actual DNA, physiological processes and the woman’s nourishment that supports the potential. (However, aftet this we disagree.) What actually exists is not yet a human being (rational animal). It is not merely an incidental difference that time will heal but a substantial difference. A person may be incidentally sleeping – but retains the physical structure that enables human consciousness: a funtioning brain. A fetus, in the 1st 2 trimesters, is substantially different – it lacks the physical structure that enables human consciousness.

You claim that since DNA fully defines the individual and its construction is in progress, it is as good as done. The dye as been cast, the plan is set, it's in the cards, the play is written and character defined, etc. Right? I claim a substantial change hasn’t occurred. You claim it’s been defined. I claim: so what? At this point you invoke Stolyarov maxim: regard each entity as that which it will almost certainly become (aka "futuristic certainty"). At which point, I claim that a substantial change can’t be ignored or faked – no matter how well defined and certain its outcome. A fetus is not a person – and thus it has no rights.

I think this sums up our differences. Right?

MR. STOLYAROV: As far as I see it, yes. You have correctly outlined the issue.



Post 45

Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 7:50pmSanction this postReply
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MR. atlascott: So, does anyone take exception to my conclusion, (above, way above) that there is really no meaningful communication on this issue possible with Mr. Stolyarov? I have watched, as each of you gentlemen have dissected his arguments and masterfully exposed the flaws and contradictions. Mr. Stolyarov avoids these, and misinterprets your arguments. "Mr." Glenn, do you REALLY advocate slaughtering third-graders? ;>)

I have followed this thread soley because I am so heartened by the strong and lucid response to Mr. Stolyarov's brand of mysticism.

MR. STOLYAROV: I think Mr. atlascott is acting like quite the stale dogmatist here. Because I disagree with him, he essentially contends, and because I remain unswayed by his reiterations, no one should continue to try to extract whatever he believes to be a grain of truth from a disagreeing party. I reply that it is from those with whom we disagree that we learn most. Mr. Zuma and I have already been able to outline in far more specific terms than my fairly brief article the nature of the two positions.

Moreover, Mr. atlascott continues to lash out with his name-calling and references to me as a "mystic" due to a NON-FUNDAMENTAL DISAGREEMENT. Is John Locke a mystic, too, because he believed that man's property over his life does not extend to the right to deprive himself of it? Is anyone a mystic simply because he does not fall into step with Mr. atlascott's "closed doctrine" party line?

Perhaps this is merely an envious and spitefully-driven outlash at me for my having demonstrated that Mr. atlascott's warrantless repetition that my ideas are "not Objectivist" is not conductive to actual examination of the issue and amounts to wishful thinking. So he has devised a new insult and a new means of suppressing dynamic thought under the blanket of closed-doctrine dogmatism.

Mr. atlascott seems to espouse the view that whenever someone offers a disagreement with my position, I should just passively acquiesce and concede the debate instead of investigating and engaging the far from finished issue in detail.

Mr. atlascott is welcome to keep his dogmatism to himself, but it is not tactful for him to intervene in a productive discussion and attempt to dissolve it.



Post 46

Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 7:59pmSanction this postReply
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MR. JOHNSON: You can argue that potentiality does not equal actuality. Entirely true. A blank canvas does not a masterpiece make. But that doesn't negate the value of the canvas. And the lack of a rationally functioning (or just plain functioning) mind can't negate the value of life. A socialist has less value to me than a capitalist, but that doesn't mean I want them dead, or think anyone else has the right to kill them if they've harmed no one else.

MR. STOLYAROV: I think you have pinpointed a crucial issue. Despite the fact that futuristic certainty is not present actuality, and cannot be treated in the same manner, certain underlying characteristics and considerations exist. A canvas is still the property of the painter. So is the painting. It so happens that the life of a man is his own property. So is the life of a fetus. The right to life, just as the nature of the canvas's property exists throughout its development.

While one certainly would not treat a socialist in the same manner as one would a capitalist (in a personal, not a legal sense, i.e. one would not vote for him in an election or sign a business contract with him), both are entitled to their inalienable rights. The only difference in that regard between this scenario and that of the fetus is the arbitrary line that abortion proponents have drawn that states that "birth defines a human being."

A question for Mr. Zuma: Assume for a moment that the brain becomes fully developed by the third trimester. The baby can kick, breath, and even generate noise. Why still hold birth as the defining moment? Rational capacity already exists, does it not. If an already born infant were kept in a cellar without any interaction with the outside world, the situation would still be the same. Or would you oppose abortion in this case?

This is intended to clarify your position to me and see where precisely you draw your line. If it is not birth, do you uphold judgment on a case-by-case basis (since each fetus's times of development are slightly different)?



Post 47

Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 8:44pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks Glenn.
J



Post 48

Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 9:12pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Stolyarov: This whole debate could be put to rest quite simply by providing your definition for human life and therefore where the right to life occurs. You've yet to do so. I've given mine. Mr. Glenn says:

A human life is a self-sustaining, self-generating animal with the capacity for rationality.

This statement, in my view, is the defining moment, subsumes all instances of human life and excludes everything else. Anything that falls outside of this is not a human or not a life and should not be treated as such.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but your definition appears to be:

A human life is EITHER: (1) human DNA; OR (2) what Mr. Glenn said.

Now, while this is true of all instances of human life, it fails to exclude hair, skin flakes and toenail clippings.

Now, you could narrow this to:

A human life is EITHER: (1) human DNA that has the "futuristic certainty" of becoming what Mr. Glenn said; OR (2) what Mr. Glenn said.

But with the advent of cloning, hair, skin flakes and toenails are "futuristically certain" of becoming a man under certain, un-intervened conditions (which you concede is the ultimate qualifier.)

So, would you narrow it further?

A human life is EITHER: (1) human DNA that, under "natural" conditions, has the "futuristic certainty" of becoming what Mr. Glenn said; OR (2) what Mr. Glenn said.

Besides having an awful lot of parentheses and scare quotes, you've also agreed with Mr. Reed that it is man's nature to change nature. What makes cloning "unnatural"?

Human life is sacred because of its potential, not because of its building blocks. I'd throw in the towel if I were you, Mr. Stolyarov!

g.



Post 49

Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 9:53pmSanction this postReply
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I suggest Wikipedia online Encyc. to you all for direct, easy access definitions of some of the common terms in this debate...life, death, human, etc...
J



Post 50

Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 7:56amSanction this postReply
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I glad we have a significant understanding of the essence of each other’s position (re: June 17 7:47 pm post). Now, I need to take a breather – work calls.

Before I’m off let me explain one point. You noticed (re: June 17 7:59 pm post) that I’ve focused on the 1st two trimesters - before the development of a functioning brain. I’ve been arguing the case for abortion rights in this case without commenting on the converse. I’ve compared the early fetus with a fully functioning adult human being. Thus, I haven’t covered the 3rd trimester nor have I provided a foundation or description of the rights children possess – let alone some of the other cases Jeremy Johnson brings up.

There are a whole host of points worthy of comment; you and others have debated these points. While I also think they are important, I wanted to focus on one essential part of your argument.



Post 51

Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 8:43amSanction this postReply
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Anyone who derives an argument from 'Natural Law,' which is itself derived from a belief in God or a Creator, is a mystic. I think Mr. Zuma pointed that out quite well.

I also think that several people on this list have done a fine job identifying and explaining how and why your views are in opposition to reality, and Objectivism. So to the extent that I write that your views are incorrect and anti-Objectivism, I am not practicing dogmatism. I just prefer not to rehash what has already become fairly obvious to anyone reading the thread.

I have already addressed your failure to correctly define what 'human life' is (and therefore, when the human's right to life' begins). I quote from an earlier post:

"You are staring directly at the answer, and are purposely looking in another direction. Volitional conciousness. Even a profoundly retarded person has volitional conciousness. A fetus does not. A dead person does not. A sleeping man does. That a genome is in place means nothing. We all leave genetic material behind whereever we go--hair, skin, even in urine and feces. A person could be cloned from these. Should I not flush? And that a fetus is a potential person means nothing. It is not until a person is a person in fact that one gains right qua man. "

I apologize if I have offended you, but I deny that I have called you a dirty name.



Post 52

Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 2:53pmSanction this postReply
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MR. atlascott: I also think that several people on this list have done a fine job identifying and explaining how and why your views are in opposition to reality, and Objectivism. So to the extent that I write that your views are incorrect and anti-Objectivism, I am not practicing dogmatism. I just prefer not to rehash what has already become fairly obvious to anyone reading the thread... I apologize if I have offended you, but I deny that I have called you a dirty name.

MR. STOLYAROV: You are free to disagree with the consistency of my reasoning and any other arguments that I propose. But to call me a mystic smacks of espousing a closed doctrine. I do, after all, espouse the fundamentals of reality, reason, individualism, and capitalism. My dispute with abortion is one which seeks merely to ascertain which existents can be defined as individuals, and which concepts (acting as the criteria) can be deemed rational. If I have committed an error (which I do not yet concede) it is an error of knowledge. The same is true in your case. Neither disqualifies us from being Objectivists.

Moreover, cloning is NOT futuristically certain. The genetic material that man leaves wherever has not yet been converted to embryo form and implanted in a mother; it will not inexorably develop ABSENT INTERVENTION. Now, once interevention HAS occurred, and the embryo is implanted, then futuristic certainty exists.

See my essay, "The Morality of Cloning."

http://www.geocities.com/rationalargumentator/Morality_of_Cloning.html

I have also refuted the Natural Law/God equation in earlier posts. I see no need to address this further as 1) I am certain that I am an atheist, 2) Natural Law does not equal god, and 3) numerous secular humanist philosophers have employed Natural Law in their writings, including Rand herself.



Post 53

Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 3:08pmSanction this postReply
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By the way, I harbor no personal resentment against Mr. atlascott, nor am I anymore of the opinion that he holds any in my direction. It is likely that our views coincide on most other matters as well but diverge (and will likely continue to do so) on this one.

MR. GLENN: A human life is EITHER: (1) human DNA that has the "futuristic certainty" of becoming what Mr. Glenn said; OR (2) what Mr. Glenn said.

But with the advent of cloning, hair, skin flakes and toenails are "futuristically certain" of becoming a man under certain, un-intervened conditions (which you concede is the ultimate qualifier.)

So, would you narrow it further?

A human life is EITHER: (1) human DNA that, under "natural" conditions, has the "futuristic certainty" of becoming what Mr. Glenn said; OR (2) what Mr. Glenn said.

Besides having an awful lot of parentheses and scare quotes, you've also agreed with Mr. Reed that it is man's nature to change nature. What makes cloning "unnatural"?

MR. STOLYAROV: I say: (1) human DNA that has the "futuristic certainty" of becoming what Mr. Glenn said. I never argued that Mr. Glenn's definition was improper in any manner but its overly restrictive timeframe and implied stasis-thinking. I think my essay shall serve to fittingly assert the fact that cloning is not futuristically certain. (The DNA exists, but no definite means of actualizing it can be pinpointed prior to its implantation, at which point abortion is unjustified.) Let me compare cloning to reproductive intercourse. No futuristic certaintly exists before then, and a couple can choose contraception to avoid pregnancy just as someone can choose not have his DNA cloned. There is just potential, an alternative among millions.

Saying that human life is human DNA "that, which under "natural" conditions, has the "futuristic certainty" of becoming what Mr. Glenn said" is a bit repetitive. I concede that there is nothing unnatural about cloning (but there is no futuristic certainty). I am not one of the New Right who believes technological undertakings to be unnatural.

But my essay states it more comprehensively than this post.



Post 54

Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 4:42pmSanction this postReply
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Still waiting for your definition, Mr. Stolyarov! That's all I want. Just one succinct statement, in your own words, that subsumes all instances of human life (i.e. those entities entitled to the right to life) and excludes all things that aren't human life (i.e. those entities that aren’t entitled to the right to life.)

Efficient polemics demands stripping back to essentials. Our difference, sir, lies in the essential nature of what human life us. My definition subsumes you, me, Mr. atlascott, babies, socialists, sleeping people, and fetuses capable of self-generation. It excludes dogs, tumors, dead people, fingernail clippings, embryos and the French.

You say that you never argued that my definition was improper, yet my definition excludes embryos/fetuses! Let's hear it!

G.



Post 55

Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 2:15pmSanction this postReply
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First of all, I would like to commend you Mr. Stolyarov II for your tenacious willingness to defend an idea in the face of substantial opposition. I believe that this type of pregnant resolve is a crucial genesis of conception for all meaningful, productive human endeavors (puns intended).

However, I do take issue with the defensibility of the reasoning that you posit in support of your deductions. My main point of contention with your argumentation rests on the idea of a "fallacy of the continuum" (which, barring your rebuttal to this accusation, I'm currently convinced that you are guilty of). An absurd example (from T. Edward Damer's "Attacking Faulty Reasoning"-p.48) will be illustrative [begin quote]:

Human Being Argument

(Since contraries or extremes, connected by small intermediate differences, are very much the same),

and it would be arbitrary to insist that at some particular point between the extremes they become different,

and conception and delivery are extremes connected by small intermediate differences,

and a fetus is a human being at delivery,
________________________________________

Therefore, a fetus is a human being at conception.


Temperature Argument (Absurd Example)

(Since contraries or extremes, connected by small intermediate differences, are very much the same),

and it would be arbitrary to insist that at some particular point between the extremes they become different,

and the temperatures of 0 [degrees F] and 100 [degrees F] are extremes connected by small intermediate differences,

and a temperature of 100 [degrees F] is hot,
____________________________________

Therefore, a temperature of 0 [degrees F] is hot.
[end quote]


In case this is not enough evidential reasoning to settle the issue, I further invite you to electronically "sign" my Rational Discussion Treaty below (by simple "verbal agreement" of course), before I will agree to further debate on this issue (by the way, ANYONE is welcome, indeed "invited", to offer feedback on this so-called "treaty" of mine) ...

Rational Discussion Treaty
(Rules of Engagement for Rational Discussion)

Rule #1 – Agree to collaborate (work together) for a “mutual understanding”

*Why?
A “mutual understanding” is of paramount importance to any real discussion. The reason for this is because you must understand before you can be said to be in an agreement (or even in a disagreement!) with someone. Without mutual understanding in a discussion, you can be said to literally “not even know what you are talking about”

*How?
First of all, “come to terms” on language relevant to the issue(s) – conform the language used with shared ideas

To speed resolution: Identify the precision (sensitivity – acceptable uncertainty, highest probability wins, etc) and scope (specificity – exclusive special case or inclusive life reality) appropriate for a “right answer” in the given context. Only one answer can be the most “correct” one (or more “right”)


Rule #2 – Agree that evidence & reasoning are all that matters. They make or break any and every argument. The quality & quantity of these 2 things determines what is “right” (or, at least: “best”)

*Why?
With regard to rationally “knowing” anything, there is nothing else besides evidence & reasoning. There is evidence & reasoning behind every concept or notion, it is just sometimes really bad evidence and/or really bad reasoning

*How?
Create a written list of premises (which you presume truthful) and conclusions (which you presume valid) and put them in standard, syllogistic form for mutual evaluation. For each separate argument, create 2 premises leading to one conclusion (syllogistic reasoning). Stringing arguments together is allowed (different syllogisms, back-to-back, leading to a grand conclusion)


Rule #3 – The “best available argument” always wins. Appeals to “proof beyond reasonable doubt” are allowed when no rival argument is forwarded (note: this standard is high enough to decide human fate in murder trials). Appeals to “absolute proof beyond a shadow of a doubt” are rejected outright as a denial of human fallibility (expecting “perfection” or “the impossible” when you’re not allowed to; only insane people are allowed to maintain these expectations, not reasonable people)

Signed (both parties): _____Ed Thompson_____ & _____________________


With unconditional positive regard for evidential reasoning,
Ed Thompson



Post 56

Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 2:25pmSanction this postReply
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First of all, I would like to commend you Mr. Stolyarov II for your tenacious willingness to defend an idea in the face of substantial opposition. I believe that this type of pregnant resolve is a crucial genesis of conception for all meaningful, productive human endeavors (puns intended).

However, I do take issue with the defensibility of the reasoning that you posit in support of your deductions. My main point of contention with your argumentation rests on the idea of a "fallacy of the continuum" (which, barring your rebuttal to this accusation, I'm currently convinced that you are guilty of). An absurd example (from T. Edward Damer's "Attacking Faulty Reasoning"-p.48) will be illustrative [begin quote]:

Human Being Argument

(Since contraries or extremes, connected by small intermediate differences, are very much the same),

and it would be arbitrary to insist that at some particular point between the extremes they become different,

and conception and delivery are extremes connected by small intermediate differences,

and a fetus is a human being at delivery,
________________________________________

Therefore, a fetus is a human being at conception.


Temperature Argument (Absurd Example)

(Since contraries or extremes, connected by small intermediate differences, are very much the same),

and it would be arbitrary to insist that at some particular point between the extremes they become different,

and the temperatures of 0 [degrees F] and 100 [degrees F] are extremes connected by small intermediate differences,

and a temperature of 100 [degrees F] is hot,
____________________________________

Therefore, a temperature of 0 [degrees F] is hot.
[end quote]


In case this is not enough evidential reasoning to settle the issue, I further invite you to electronically "sign" my Rational Discussion Treaty below (by simple "verbal agreement" of course), before I will agree to further debate on this issue (by the way, ANYONE is welcome, indeed "invited", to offer feedback on this so-called "treaty" of mine) ...

Rational Discussion Treaty
(Rules of Engagement for Rational Discussion)

Rule #1 – Agree to collaborate (work together) for a “mutual understanding”

*Why?
A “mutual understanding” is of paramount importance to any real discussion. The reason for this is because you must understand before you can be said to be in an agreement (or even in a disagreement!) with someone. Without mutual understanding in a discussion, you can be said to literally “not even know what you are talking about”

*How?
First of all, “come to terms” on language relevant to the issue(s) – conform the language used with shared ideas

To speed resolution: Identify the precision (sensitivity – acceptable uncertainty, highest probability wins, etc) and scope (specificity – exclusive special case or inclusive life reality) appropriate for a “right answer” in the given context. Only one answer can be the most “correct” one (or more “right”)


Rule #2 – Agree that evidence & reasoning are all that matters. They make or break any and every argument. The quality & quantity of these 2 things determines what is “right” (or, at least: “best”)

*Why?
With regard to rationally “knowing” anything, there is nothing else besides evidence & reasoning. There is evidence & reasoning behind every concept or notion, it is just sometimes really bad evidence and/or really bad reasoning

*How?
Create a written list of premises (which you presume truthful) and conclusions (which you presume valid) and put them in standard, syllogistic form for mutual evaluation. For each separate argument, create 2 premises leading to one conclusion (syllogistic reasoning). Stringing arguments together is allowed (different syllogisms, back-to-back, leading to a grand conclusion)


Rule #3 – The “best available argument” always wins. Appeals to “proof beyond reasonable doubt” are allowed when no rival argument is forwarded (note: this standard is high enough to decide human fate in murder trials). Appeals to “absolute proof beyond a shadow of a doubt” are rejected outright as a denial of human fallibility (expecting “perfection” or “the impossible” when you’re not allowed to; only insane people are allowed to maintain these expectations, not reasonable people)

Signed (both parties): _____Ed Thompson_____ & _____________________


With unconditional positive regard for evidential reasoning,
Ed Thompson



Post 57

Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 3:48pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Thompson, I accept your treaty and look forward to discussing this issue with you. My time at present is scant, so I will thoroughly reply to your post in the future. In the meantime, I would like to address my definition of a human being.

A human being is any entity capable of acting on the deliberate instructions of its mind (i.e. volitional consciousness) or an entity that will with certainty reach such a condition in the future automatically, as derived from its present conditions. This futuristic certainty is defined as inevitable development in the absence of volitional human or circumstantial (i.e. non-human or non-volitional human) interventions into the process whereby this development occurs.

My definition subsumes children, fetuses, adults, the mentally handicapped (as they, too, possess an elementary capacity for volitional action always), the sleeping, the awake, and the comatose. It even includes the French, though not the corpse of Jean-Paul Sartre.



Post 58

Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 3:51pmSanction this postReply
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Let me also add to my definition that a human being can also be any entity who has in the past experienced a state of volitional consciousness and has not yet encountered the cessation of the entirety of his bodily processes. Hence, it would be immoral to cut off life-support from a brain-dead person, whose will had stated that he wishes to be sustained indefinitely (on his own funds).



Post 59

Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 4:49pmSanction this postReply
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Hehehehe. I thought so! Mr. Stolyarov writes:

"A human being is any entity capable of acting on the deliberate instructions of its mind (i.e. volitional consciousness) or an entity that will with certainty reach such a condition in the future automatically, as derived from its present conditions."

To quote Miss Rand: "A is A. It's either/or, buddy!" An entity that could (or even will) become A is not (yet) A, no matter how "futuristically certain." Yes, you can have either/or choices in characteristics, but not in essentials.

"My definition ... even includes the French ..."

Well, now your credibility is completely shot! :)

g.



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