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Post 20

Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 5:02pmSanction this postReply
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Shayne,

"It's really getting tiresome to have you making pointless jabs at me at every opportunity."

Get used to it.

If I am reading something interesting and you come barging in with gratuitous insults, I will respond. (Frankly, I have better things to do with my time, but your lack of civil discourse sidetracks my focus, and that pisses me off - I want to think about what I am reading, not about Shayne.)

You want to dish it out, learn to take it.

Michael




Post 21

Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 5:35pmSanction this postReply
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Well it should be clear to any sane person that you are the one who initiated the insults in this thread - and switched the subject from the topic at hand onto something no one wants to read about. I think your behavior is starting to go past tiresome and into the realm of stalking.




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Post 22

Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 6:22pmSanction this postReply
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Shayne,
About your one word reply to MM's post: you described it as "on topic", I didn't think you were trying to make a useful exchange of ideas and I thought you misunderstood MM's point.  I said as much and also that you were sometimes interesting in my post to MK. 

I found this exchange of yours on your blog in a reply by "Anonymous" to your article "Listening Skills":

"Anonymous wrote:
"As a collorary, many times good ideas are mixed with bad one[s]. Even if one starts with a willingness to understand the author's viewpoint, often the bad part change one's attitude."

 
You Wrote:

It's important to recognize that the "bad parts" don't change your attitude; you change your attitude. The point is that your change in attitude should be driven by a reality-oriented evaluation, not a knee-jerk reaction to something you disagreed with.
Don't get me wrong, some authors do deserve to be dismissed. Sometimes there is a pattern of wrong-headedness that you can observe, and conclude that it's unlikely the author will have anything useful to say.
But what is more common is for poor readers to misunderstand and therefore to prematurely dismiss someone based on a strawman misinterpretation; or on the other hand to mindlessly and uncritically absorb whatever they read from their favorite author. Both behaviors are a manifestation of intellectual laziness."

The first half of the last paragraph appeared to be what you had done with your one word "absurd" reply.  You made some good points in your "Listening skills" article.  "Communication is an art. This applies both when trying to communicate an idea, and when trying to understand one." , is a good one.  I don't think anyone doesn't want to get along with you.  I would like to see you practice what you preach, however.





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Post 23

Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 9:00pmSanction this postReply
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Shayne,
 
Not stalking. And very tiresome.
 
Michael




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Post 24

Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 6:06amSanction this postReply
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In post 7, Shayne Wissler wrote: "Adam I think your argument is confused. UNIX may be "out of the bag", but a software company in principle ought to be able to copyright ...  "open source" movements whose sole existence is made possible by cloning ... companies should have retained rights such that no cloning would have been possible."

This is all very complicated on many levels.  A long time ago, I learned in a Basic Principles of Objectivism lecture that any discussion eventually comes down to metaphysics.  So, let's start there.  I have a sandwich here now.  I am eating it.  If you take it from me, then I cannot have it.  On the other hand, a computer program can be replicated.

A book can also be copied.  However, the copiablitiy of a book is separable from its existence.  Copyability is inherent in the essential nature of software.  That term, "software" must include both "code" and "data."  There is no essential difference between them. 

You and are I reading and posting to two different "copies" of SOLO.  We do click on the IP address or URL, but we also have instantiations of code on our own machines.  SOLO is not a place or a thing or a person.  SOLO is a set of processes which by their nature coexist with other processes that are in all ways undifferentiable except for locale: you have yours and I have mine.  Neither of us can prevent the other from enjoying the benefit.  And in fact, differentiations are possible -- and not clearly important.  Suppose you are running Netscape and I have Internet Explorer.  We have two different presentations of the same thing.  Exclusivity of use is impossible to argue.

However, exclusivity is the sine qua non of property.  Rights associated with property derive from the fact that two people cannot occupy the same place at the same time.   In essence, all property rights derive from considerations of real estate.

However, real estate law was inadequate for the industrial revolution.  Capitalism was not "non-manorial farming."  It was a new way of creating wealth.  We do have titles for our cars, mostly because the state taxes them.  Do you have any other titles besides your home and car?  Did you get a title with your computer?  We have elaborate mechanisms for title searches when land is sold, but no such thing for machinery.  Laws for land do not apply to the nature of machinery.  You can take a machine from one place to another and create wealth with it wherever it is.  Land stays.  So, capitalism required new understandings of ownership, rights, and property apart from medieval or primitive concepts about land and rights to it.  If someone took your computer (or your car), the police would not ask you if you had title to it. However, if you came home and found someone farming your land, title would be the totality of the problem.

In fact, we say that your "title" to the computer or car defines your ownership and defines the fact of  theft.  My point is that your title is not registered with the government, as it is with land.  With land, if you do not register your title you are exposed to serious risk. 

When we translated real estate law to industrial society, failures happened.  We have copyrights and patents that are impossible to define unambiguously.  Copyrights and patents were not defined from metaphysical principles as applied to commercial societies based on individual rights  for the protections of which governments are established.  Instead, kings granted patents and copyrights to people who paid for them.  And here we are, confused about software.

It is 1885.  You are walking down a country lane and you hear an odd mechanical sound and over the hill comes Karl Benz.  Wow! A horseless carriage.  Of course, you have seen railroad trains.  You have seen windmills and sailing ships and steam ships.  As interesting as this contraption is, it is obviously a compact machine of some sort.  "Hmmmm....." you say.  "I think I can build something like that."  However, you cannot do that.  The government has granted a patent to Karl Benz.  Fortunately, the local government does not extend to America.  After gaining an American patent, Samuel Morse went to the U.K. to sue for a patent there.  He lost.  The telegraph was considered "prior art" there.  Nicola Tesla sued Guglielmo Marconi. Tesla never built a broadcast radio for carrying voice transmissions, but he did broadcast oscillating magnetic waves.  The point of those examples is  that these problems in copyrights and patents come from attempting to understand capitalism in feudalist terms.

By extension, cybernetics is different from machinery.  Attempting to fit software to the procrustean bed of industrial law will only make everyone suffer.

Objectivism teaches that there can be no contradictions between metaphysics and commercial law.  If contradictions seem to exist, check your premises.  One of them, at least, will be wrong.




Post 25

Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 10:12amSanction this postReply
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Michael: There's no need to get so philosophical about the nature of software. There's in fact no difference in principle between a book and software from the aspect of copyability. In order to copy a book you need physical access to the book. In order to copy software, you need physical access to the computer the software is on. Both require that the owner of the physical device give you permission to do the copying. (And in fact, that's the rational basis of copyright).

Now if you want to start arguing that books should not be copyrightable, go right ahead. I'll follow right behind with a counter-argument.

And please note that I never said anything about patents.
(Edited by Shayne Wissler on 3/24, 10:15am)




Post 26

Friday, March 25, 2005 - 5:09amSanction this postReply
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Michael: There's no need to get so philosophical about the nature of software. There's in fact no difference in principle between a book and software from the aspect of copyability. In order to copy a book you need physical access to the book. In order to copy software, you need physical access to the computer the software is on. Both require that the owner of the physical device give you permission to do the copying. (And in fact, that's the rational basis of copyright).

That is not entirely true.  It is not a perfect analogy.  In your article on the nature of software, you point out that it is only an arrangement of switches.  It is.  Can you copyright an arrangement of flowers?  Granted that we have copyrights for arrangements of music and arrangements of dancers on a stage and of course for arrangements of words, marble, oil paint on canvas, etc.  The "intellectual" and "artistic" arrangements were given special legal status not granted to arrangements of flowers or crops.  We know that planting certain crops in rotation is good.  Legumes fix nitrogen into the soil and so on.  Could the first person to have discovered that get a copyright on it?  How is an arrangment in time of seeds in soil different from an arrangement of semiconductor switches?
 
I can write out a program on a piece of paper.  I can do it in pseudocode, Warnier-Orr diagrams, Nassi-Scheiderman diagrams, or flowcharts.  I can write in BASIC.  (It is said that Basic is still Bill Gates' primary tool, honestly and by way of complement.)  If I write it one way, you can rewrite it another.  If I write out the code in C++ on a piece of paper, you can key it into your computer directly.  In the oldest of days, we used to do that.  You must know that.  In 1975 when I started programming, we wrote out our code on sheets of programming paper, different paper for COBOL and FORTRAN.  The paper went to keypunchers who created decks of cards.  Those went in trays to an operations room where they were put into a hopper.  Good programmers were allowed to punch their own decks.  No one was allowed to run their own programs.  So, is the programming sheet copyrightable in some way different from the copyright on the deck of cards?  Each would have a separate copyright under the law because the deck of cards is a different  FORM of the program.  You copyright the FORM, not the SUBSTANCE. 

The deck of cards, the paper, the tape, whatever, those have physical reality that is copyrightable.  The arrangment of switches is not substantial.  It is not material. The laws that apply to books or plays or music or paintings cannot apply to software, even of those laws had objective validity, which they do not.




Post 27

Friday, March 25, 2005 - 7:33amSanction this postReply
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Michael: Your argument is very confused. And it's not really even an argument. All you do is list a bunch of concretes, you state no principle. You are certainly wrong about software not being copyrightable - a book can be written in ink or bits and it is, software can be written in ink or bits too. The form is irrelevant, they are essentially similar with respect to being concrete expressions of particular intellectual processes.

But I don't think it matters. Because you imply that even books should not be copyrightable. If that's what you think then why are you quibbling about software? Because if books shouldn't hold a copyright, then certainly software shouldn't either. So argue your case for books.




Post 28

Monday, March 28, 2005 - 12:34pmSanction this postReply
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My posts poke all kinds of holes in the theory that software should be copyrighted.  Whether books (or anything) should be is a wider discussion, best dealt with in a different post in a different forum.  As for software, I have demonstrated that your theories lack internal consistency and do not correlate with the facts of reality.  Like "atheism" (so-called), my case is only that you have not made yours.  You said that software is an arrangement of switches.  I pointed out that an arrangment of seeds is the same thing -- and yet not considered copyrightable.  What makes an arrangment of switches special?

The nature of copyright law is specifically that it is the FORM that is copyrighted.  That is why the Bible can be copyrighted.  You claim that a flowchart on a piece of paper is the "same" as a program that runs on a computer.  I pointed out that these are two totally different FORMS even if they are of the same idea.  As we both know, a flowchart is not a working program.  By your own logic, the relevant form of the program is the arrangment of switches.  I dealt with that.

You know that you can write your own compiler and run all the "copyrighted" code in the world.  The compiler is itself a program.  What you have is like a book about a book, like a critique of Atlas Shrugged.  A literary criticism of Atlas cannot violate the copyright of Atlas, and neither can a newly compiled instantiation of a pre-existing program. Yet, that is exactly what software copyrights seek to prevent.  That is unreal on several grounds.  Basically, it contradicts the nature of the medium. 




Post 29

Monday, March 28, 2005 - 12:53pmSanction this postReply
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Michael: I've not dealt with your "arguments" against my position on software for two reasons. First, if you hold that books should not be copyrightable, I think the whole argument about software is moot since I think the basis of software copyrights is identical to the basis of book copyrights. Again, I think the argument would end up being a pointless technical quibble. (Which indeed is all you appear to want to do here. We don't need a new thread to see your basic argument against book copyrights, and it's certainly relevant to this thread.)

Second, even if I entertained quibbling with you, my first observation would be that you haven't even competently represented my position when arguing against it. E.g., I never said that software was "an arrangement of switches." Still, even if you competently dealt with my actual position, I'd find it hard to be motivated to argue with someone about software copyrights who didn't even believe in book copyrights.

I guess I'll take up just one of your confusions, just for kicks. You say that arrangements of seeds aren't copyrightable. Well that's flat out wrong. If the seeds were arranged in such a way that they embodied a work of the intellect, then certainly they would be copyrighted. Arrangements of ink blobs can form letters which can form a book; likewise seeds can be arranged to form a work (a book can be written in ink, or seeds, or as computer software). You talk to me as if I'd said that random switch arrangements should be copyrightable but that's just your incompetent strawman.




Post 30

Monday, May 7, 2007 - 8:29amSanction this postReply
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Over two years later, SCO is on the verge of being de-listed.




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