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Post 40

Sunday, October 31, 2004 - 3:42amSanction this postReply
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Duplicate - deleted.
(Edited by Michelle Cohen on 10/31, 3:45am)




Post 41

Sunday, October 31, 2004 - 3:42amSanction this postReply
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Fred - you wrote:
the philosopher, who gave me the broad ideas by which I live;
Rand's fundamental metaphysical idea was that reality consisted of one dimension. In fact, you pointed out the agreement between her and Nietzsche on this issue in your paper "Nietzsche: The Myth and the Method." (Reason Papers #22)  So if you accept Rand's broad ideas and live by them, do you accept that there is only one dimension, and that Kant's two-dimensions metaphysics is wrong?

-- Michelle




Post 42

Thursday, November 4, 2004 - 11:26amSanction this postReply
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Michelle,

"do you accept that there is only one dimension, and that Kant's two-dimensions metaphysics is wrong?"

No, I don't buy that interpretation of Kant. I think the phenomenal is just our way of getting the noumenal. Of course, if Kant is a two-worlder, then he is wrong. For more on this two-world business but with respect to Plato, see my book Chapter One, section 3, THE THEORY OF FORMS in which I discuss this topic. See esp. n47 where I list some of the strange many-world views. The prize for the weirdest goes to Plutarch who thought there were 183 worlds. After that, 2 worlders almost, I say almost, seem sane.

Fred



Post 43

Friday, November 5, 2004 - 2:23pmSanction this postReply
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Fred,

What do you mean by a "two-worlder"?  Do you mean epistemological dualism?

In my opinion, and my opinion is formed mostly from reading how others interpret Kant, the only thing that could save Kant's epistemology would have been a defense of it as some form of representationalism, which implies epistemological dualism.  But if you reject that, then how can you still support Kant?




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Post 44

Saturday, November 6, 2004 - 5:07amSanction this postReply
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Fred,

You wrote:
I don't buy that interpretation of Kant. I think the phenomenal is just our way of getting the noumenal.
I quote from CPR:
Thus even after reason has failed in all its ambitious attempts to pass beyond the limits of all experience, there is still enough left to satisfy us, so far as our practical stand point is concerned. No one, indeed, will be able to boast that he knows that there is a God, and a future life... No, my conviction is not logical, but moral certainty; and since it rests on subjective grounds (of the moral sentiment), I must not even say, 'It is morally certain that there is a God, etc.', but 'I am morally certain, etc.' [A828f-B856f]
Kant himself disagrees with you that the phenomenal is our way of getting the noumenal.
 
 




Post 45

Saturday, November 6, 2004 - 2:30pmSanction this postReply
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Michelle,

When I wrote "I think the phenomenal is just our way of getting the noumenal." I had in mind passages like the following:

"If...appearances are not taken for more than they actually are; if they are viewed not as things-in-themselves, but merely as representations, connected according to empirical laws, they must themselves have grounds which are not appearances. (A537=B565)
In this sense knowledge or experience is a package deal involving the thing-in-itself and us. It is in that sense that Kant is not a two-worlder. On this view see the book that Peter recommended, W. T. Jones' A HISTORY OF WESTERN PHILOSOPHY, p. 821 in the hc., the section title KNOWLEDGE A CO-OPERATIVE AFFAIR.

Your post is interesting. As I pointed out earlier on SOLO I think Kant has three views on the noumena. (1) We cannot know it theoretically, (2) we can think it--in fact we must think it if we are to avoid idealism. Appearances presuppose something (= X) that appears; (3) we can practically "know" it, i.e., we can subjectively (in Kant sense of that term, not Rand's) posit "God" and the other regulative ideas for the purpose (at least in the first Critique) of systematic unity of the sciences.

Fred



Post 46

Saturday, November 6, 2004 - 2:39pmSanction this postReply
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Michelle, RE: Your post 31.

"I can find references in CRITIQUE for Kant's attempt to build a case for a-priori conceptual knowledge."

I agree with you on this one. I do belive that Kant thought that we did in fact possess synthetic a priori knowledge, in math and certain parts of physics and that we were responsible for that due to the forms of intuition and the categories of the human mind.

Fred



Post 47

Sunday, November 7, 2004 - 4:50amSanction this postReply
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Fred -

Based on your posts 45 and 46, can you still say that Kant was a Prototype Objectivist?

Michelle




Post 48

Sunday, November 7, 2004 - 4:54pmSanction this postReply
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Michelle,

I think you are right to keep pressing this issue. One of the things I mean by that, (when I'm not just saying it for effect) is in comparison to say other modern continental thinkers. I'm currently teaching a course in Modern Phil. from Descartes to Kant. If I were to compare, say, Leibniz and Kant to Rand, Kant seems so much closer to her than does Leibniz. Descartes is toooo rationalistic to suffer comparison with Rand. Not to mention all that Innate idea stuff. Now I know Peikoff often has nice things to say about Spinoza, but for my money, Kant is more Randian (and that, in the end, may not be all that much). Rand is still Rand and there ain't no one like her for me. But when I'm reading the above four great thinkers, there is just more resonance between Kant and Rand than either of the other three, for me anyway.
If we move to the British, Hobbes is too much of a materialist and a power political; Locke is fine if we stick to his politics, but as Rand said on one occasion the rest of his philosophy is a disaster. Besides he calls for the killing of atheists--something Kant would never do, since every man is an end in himself. Berkeley is toooo subjectivist, and Hume is toooo skeptical. Anyway that's some of what I mean when I say that. Mostly it has to do with Kant's position on the active and identity possessing consciousness as well as his notion of objective reality.
In the end of course, Rand is Rand. For me, all historical figures either lead to Rand or are wrong. It might be an interesting experiment to lay out these guys from left to right with Rand at one end and whomever at the other and see where they all fit. I don't know if that would be an easy or difficult task. I can easily do it when I take 3 of them as I did above with Leibniz, Kant and Rand.
(It also make a difference If you restrict it to one branch of philosophy--Then among the moderns Locke is closer to her than any other in Politics.) I know Rand would disagree with me. She sees Kant as her antipode and maybe she is right. If she is, then of course, I'm wrong.
Fred





Post 49

Monday, November 8, 2004 - 1:22pmSanction this postReply
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Fred,

Consider the following news item:
Theo van Gogh was murdered in Amsterdam on Tuesday. His attacker was a Dutch Moroccan who wore traditional Islamic clothing. After shooting van Gogh, he stabbed him repeatedly, slit his throat with a butcher knife, and left a note containing verses from the Qur'an on the body. Said Dutch Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende: 'Nothing is known about the motive' of the killer.
If I were to apply Rand's article "Philosophic Detection" to this news item, I will clearly see that the Dutch Prime Minister is looking for 'the motive in itself,' independently of any phenomenal evidence. The essence of Objectivism is an application to actual events, not an abstract academic talk.




Post 50

Tuesday, November 9, 2004 - 10:21amSanction this postReply
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Michelle,

The Minister is either TRYING t o say nothing prior to an investigation, or he is an idiot. But saying the minister is looking for the "motive in itself" is probably too complimentary to the minister. He sounds like his next thought will be his first.

Fred



Post 51

Tuesday, February 19 - 6:06amSanction this postReply
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What Perigo fails to include in his essay is the fact that natural philosophy, one of the engines of the Renaissance, was promoted by purging the Aristotelean nonsense. Galileo had a good deal to do with this. Galileo, Copernicus and Kepler paved the way for Newton and the Bright Enlightenment by showing most of Aristotle's physics and cosmology was balderdash.

Aristotle made great contributions to logic and conceptual clarity. What he did NOT DO, was to promote careful checking of premises by testing their logical consequences. We call that experimentation, nowadays. Aristotle was a fine philosopher but a bad physicist. His approach held natural philosophy (aka natural science) back by a thousand years. The only thinkers in the ancient world that transcended Aristotle limitations were folks like Heron and Archimedes. Unfortunately they did not found Schools nor did their works survive the destruction of the Library at Alexandria well.


Bob Kolker




Post 52

Tuesday, February 19 - 8:40pmSanction this postReply
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Aristotle is a convenient target.  We have no easy way to parse the man from the lecture notes of his students or either of them from Theophrastos, his (ahem) intellectual heir.  What of Aristotle survived the burnings of Library of Alexandria depended on what had survived being buried in the ground by Demetrios Polyorketes and his kith and kin, as if the "treasure" of Aristotle's works were to be hoarded to maintain its value.

Aristarchos said that the orbits were circles.  Was the Fall of Rome his fault?   Hippocrates sought to rebalance the humors.  Was he to blame for Attila the Hun?  Archimedes failed find parallax and concluded that either the universe is impossibly huge or else the Earth is at the center of it.  He put the Earth at the center.  Should we blame him for the Dark Ages?

As a physicist, surely you appreciate Aristotle's resolution of forces in the parallelogram of forces.  (Or was that Theophrastus following in his master's shadow?  Or did he record later what Aristotle had taught earlier?)

Myself, I am not a good experimentalist.  Rather, I am a thinker.  And I don't think well on my feet.  I need days to think something through.  So, for me, Aristotle is what he is, 2500 years old and Greek.  I don't blame him for his not knowing what I know ---  because what I know I learned from others who came after Aristotle.

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 2/19, 8:44pm)




Post 53

Wednesday, February 20 - 3:33amSanction this postReply
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Michael writes:

As a physicist, surely you appreciate Aristotle's resolution of forces in the parallelogram of forces. (Or was that Theophrastus following in his master's shadow? Or did he record later what Aristotle had taught earlier?)

Myself, I am not a good experimentalist. Rather, I am a thinker. And I don't think well on my feet. I need days to think something through. So, for me, Aristotle is what he is, 2500 years old and Greek. I don't blame him for his not knowing what I know --- because what I know I learned from others who came after Aristotle.

I reply:

Aristotle had no proper notion of force. He attributed ALL motion to force which is just plain false. Uniform unaccelerated motion cannot be physically distinguished from rest. Only accelerations can be detected (internally).

Aristotle did pioneer work on logic and certain forms of linguistic analysis. What he did in his Physics held the science up for over a thousand years. If the Ionians had prevailed instead of the Athenians we would be traveling about in star ships rather than jet airplanes. Aristotle's work on physics turned out to be a disaster. Even the genius Archimedes (the greatest thinker of Antiquity) could not rescue Aristotle's physics and cosmology.

Bob Kolker





Post 54

Wednesday, February 20 - 6:21amSanction this postReply
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So, this Aristotle guy, he held a gun to everyone's heads for 2000 years, preventing them from thinking on their own.  Wow, I never heard about that.  Must be the Aristotle Police have been keeping us ignorant about being ignorant.

I wonder how it was that the World of Non-A ever came about?  Oh, that will/did happen when the Heraclitan starships land/landed and rebuild/rebuilt the timeline...

If only someone had noticed that rubbing amber was the same a passing a copper wire near a lodestone... That's not too much of an intellectual leap, is it?  And there is/was/will be/will have been  Marcus Aurelius wasting his time on morality when there's physics to be done...

When I did public demonstrations on physics at the Hands-On Museum here in Ann Arbor for 14 months, I pointed out -- while swinging a bowling ball from the ceiling -- that Aristotle lived in a world of horsedrawn carts and ships pushed by oars and sails.  After a couple hundred years of building large clocks during the late middle ages, people came to understand more in their daily intuitions about force and motion, so Galileo and the others saw things differently.  Galileo, in particular, lined his inclined trough with parchment to reduce the friction.  It still took another hundred years for Newton to put it all together.

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 2/20, 6:28am)




Post 55

Wednesday, February 20 - 8:32amSanction this postReply
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M.E.M.


When I did public demonstrations on physics at the Hands-On Museum here in Ann Arbor for 14 months, I pointed out -- while swinging a bowling ball from the ceiling -- that Aristotle lived in a world of horsedrawn carts and ships pushed by oars and sails. After a couple hundred years of building large clocks during the late middle ages, people came to understand more in their daily intuitions about force and motion, so Galileo and the others saw things differently. Galileo, in particular, lined his inclined trough with parchment to reduce the friction. It still took another hundred years for Newton to put it all together.

Me:

Every word, true. But in his day Aristotle did not bother to check his conclusions. The Ionians did somewhat. The more empirically base pre-Socratic approach declined, not to reappear fully for another two millenia. Aristotle's main flaw: he did not check. Had he done something simple like drop two rocks of similar shape but of disparate weights from a high enough place at the same time, he would have seen immediately that his assertion that heavier things fall faster than lighter things (disregarding air resistance) is total non-sense. This is something any ten year old kid might have thought of. Why not Aristotle?

Bob Kolker




Post 56

Wednesday, February 20 - 7:15pmSanction this postReply
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Kolker: Had he done something simple like drop two rocks of similar shape but of disparate weights from a high enough place at the same time, he would have seen immediately that his assertion that heavier things fall faster than lighter things (disregarding air resistance) is total non-sense. This is something any ten year old kid might have thought of. Why not Aristotle?


Drop a feather; drop a stone.  Drop a hair; drop a rock.  Drop a bird; drop a horse.  Light things -- things of the air -- are not attracted to the Earth as much as are earthy things.  Where is the surprise in that?  No, the surprise was that air is something.  In other words, there is not "nothing" between the atoms, but "something" between the atoms.  So, how do we move through this "something"?  Hmmmm  tough question... in fact, given the speed of light this "something" must be extremely dense.  Now, there is a poser! You cannot blame the ancient Greeks in general or Aristotle in particular for knowledge they did not have.  You might as well beat up on Thomas Young for failing to reconcile his diffraction experiment with the obvious fact that light has pressure, which is impossible for a wave.  Would you blame Thomas Young for retarding science for 100 years?

You say "disregarding air resistance" as if that were conceptually easy, but air resistance was a big deal!  Understanding it was a real discovery.  For the ancient Greeks, the big discovery via Empedokles of Akragas, was that air is a substance that has weight.  And it still took about 400 years for someone to invent a water-driven air-activated musical instrument.

On the other hand, I will grant that some Greek engineering works -- the tunnel at Samos; all those temples; see L. Sprague DeCamp's classic, The Ancient Engineers -- showed deep insight from which Aristotle and most others seemed not to have benefited.  The example given to me was pile drivers. They used them to establish foundations in soft soils, so they must have known a bit about falling bodies from dropping rocks on trimmed tree trunks.  Still and all, the failure was not limited to Aristotle.  No one "got" it, apparently. 

Finding where a meteor had fallen -- the story goes -- Anaxagoras of Klazomenai concluded that the sun is a ball of hot metal (or rock), larger than the Pelopponesus.  Of course, this is ridiculous... but that is not the point, is it?  It is not that this or that theory was right or wrong, but that the method of rational inquiry (versus mythology and religion) was the way to go.

We learn in our tax-funded schools that the Greeks did not perform experiments because they denigrated physical labor.  Plato might have felt that way about craftsmen, but that was not the general view.  Even in Plato's Dialog of Protagoras, we read that if a question comes up in the assembly that requires specific knowledge of craftsmenship, then the craftsman is called to speak If anyone attempts to speak on a technical subject he has no working knowledge of, no matter how good-looking or high-born, he is shouted down.  So, the Greeks did honor craftsmen over the "aristocrats."  Also, the Greek philosophers did perform experiments.  Again, Empedocles of Acragas showed by experiment that air is a substance. 

Aristotle was a medical doctor first and foremost.  His biological works still merit praise.  And, while we have had at least two paradigm shifts since then, the fact is that Aristotle's Physics does show the parallelogram of forces.  They knew.  He knew.  But no one took that one critical fact and followed it where it would lead... until Newton... 2000 years later... and Newton did not start from that, but from other considerations, entirely.  The Greeks almost had the differential and derivative and almost had that connected to the area within a curve.  Would you blame Apollonius of Perga for the failure of everyone else not to invent calculus?

Leave Aristotle alone, Bob.  He did just fine.

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 2/20, 7:16pm)




Post 57

Thursday, February 21 - 6:13amSanction this postReply
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MEM:

Aristotle was a medical doctor first and foremost. His biological works still merit praise. And, while we have had at least two paradigm shifts since then, the fact is that Aristotle's Physics does show the parallelogram of forces. They knew. He knew. But no one took that one critical fact and followed it where it would lead... until Newton... 2000 years later... and Newton did not start from that, but from other considerations, entirely. The Greeks almost had the differential and derivative and almost had that connected to the area within a curve. Would you blame Apollonius of Perga for the failure of everyone else not to invent calculus?

Me:

The Greeks had very primitive arithmetic. Base one tally. It was no different in principle from what the Romans or Hebrew used. They used their alphabet to do double duty as numbers. The Greeks never developed the zero (whereas the Babylonians and the Mayans did). They never had algebra and the closest Hellenistic thinker to algebraic manipulation was Diaphantus who lived in the Common Era.

The Greek mathematicians who came closest to the substance and spirit of modern mathematics, where the arithmetic and the geometric are properly united were Archimedes (while he worked in Alexandria) and Eudoxus who -nearly- hit on the underlying principles of what we now call "real numbers". That is it. If Archimedes or Eudoxus had the zero and algebra they would have developed mathematics to what it was around the 16-th century C.E. But they did not. To see both the advanced and primitive aspects of Greek mathematics read -The Development of Mathematics- by E.T.Bell, an excellent historical expositor and a productive mathematician. The failure to unite arithmetic and geometry properly stunted the development of Greek mathematics. This was not accomplished until the time of Descartes and Fermat both of whom invented what we now call analytic geometry. Descartes got the credit, but both invented it.

One thing the Greeks did produce, their very own and unique gift to human thought was the axiomatization of mathematics. This was first done by pre-Socratic Greek philosophers, most notably Thales and Pythagoras. Aristotle made no substantial contributions in this area. Besides Archimedes, the greatest Greek mathematical theorist was Eudoxus. He figured out how to handle ratios even when the terms were incomenserable. This was something that eluded the Pythagorians. Of the Athenian schools, Plato's school promoted the development of mathematics the most. A sign over the gate of Plato's academy read something like this - Let no one ignorant of Geometry entry through here-. There was no such sign over Aristotle's Lyceum.

Aristotle's best works were descriptive studies of living things and weather. See -Meteorology-, -On the Heavens-, -On Generation and Corruption-. Aristotle's contribution to the quantitative modalities was sparse. He never did get motion right nor did he ever develop a proper idea of force. Archimedes came closer in the area of statics, that is systems where force is balance. Archimedes is noted for his work in cranks, pulleys, levers and screws along with his laws of hydrodynamics which are as good today as they were when he lived. In the area of dynamics (i.e. the kinematics and dynamics of moving massive bodies) the Greeks never quite hit the mark. That had to wait for a later time.

Neither Plato nor Aristotle were fond of the ideas of Leucippus or Democritus who hit on the right idea early on (stuff is made of teeny tiny indivisibles). Neither L nor D was able to push the idea much beyond speculation because the technology needed, was not available during their time. Plato's Forms were closer in substance and spirit to the modern abstract approach seen in physics which is based largely on the principles of symmetry and least action. It was Plato's thinking as shown in -The Timaeus-, -Theatitus- and -The Meno-, that was closer to the modern way.

Aristotle's cosmology was a journey down the wrong path which was not corrected until Copernicus, in the Common Era, picked up where Aristarchus left off with a non-geocentric system. One of my favorite alternative history fantasies is one where the Greeks develop lenses and get the telescope in ancient times. That would have made a big big difference in the way things turned out.

The Ionians lost the battle for prominence and we suffered. That is history. One damned thing after another.

Bob Kolker




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