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Monday
October 11, 2004

The Grinning Face of Evil by Luke Setzer

Steven Alan Hassan, cult counselor and mind control expert, contends that commercial cults can bring as much harm as religious cults to their members and families. Former members of many different multi-level marketing (MLM) companies will support this bold claim. This entertaining speech employs an "over the top" portrayal of a typical MLM "weekend training and motivational retreat" to illustrate the worst aspects of the worst MLM companies. It won first place at a local Toastmasters Area Contest for International Speech. (Read more...)
Discuss this Article (16 messages)

Monday, October 11, 2004 - 9:06am

Funny! I was thinking about starting my own cult…

Adam

Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 8:01am

Very revealing essay... I always got the sense of that undertone in these motivational seminars, but wasn't sure if it was deliberate.

Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 10:04am

One of the more popular slogans in the Amway Motivational Organizations is:

"If the dream is big enough, facts don't matter."

I am not making this up! Check it out yourself if you dare.

Luke Setzer

Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 6:42pm

Yes, well...

To the best of my understanding, Amway is a pyramid scheme anyways. And as viable as pyramid schemes are, I'm not surprised by their whole "fact don't matter" philosophy.

Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 8:46pm

Luke,

Funny. I especially liked that BITE thing:

Behavior control, Information control, Thought control and Emotional control...

Have you ever thought of doing something like this? You sound like you would be pretty good at it.

Hey! Let's set up an Objectivist MLM campaign - just the two of us...

Michael

Saturday, March 15 - 3:32pm

Someone e-mailed me privately expressing dissatisfaction with my candid remarks about MLM:

Hey Dick,

Thanks for posting your negative vibes to the website about the MLM industry. The truth is that you are not educated nor have any desire to learn more about it. There are good mlm companies and there are bad ones. NuSkin and Usana are not the greatest companies of all time but they have been around longer than most, and so their Momentum has passed a while ago. You are in business to make a profit through the acquisition and retention of customers. It is still a business and you have tax advantages. It is A LOT EASIER building a business with a network marketing company and helping others by promoting products first rather then business opportunity and not have to deal with the hassles of having employees. Not all companies stress recruiting, why don't you do your fucking homework before you blast your nonsense to the entire world?

Why don't you do us all a favor and stop stealing our dreams of financial freedom! For most average people, network marketing is another way they can do just that.

So STOP MAKING MONEY OFF YOUR UNINFORMED WEBSITE GET A LIFE.

[Name Deleted for Privacy]

I replied that I would take her seriously if she could answer six words that generally stop MLM people in their tracks:

SHOW ME YOUR CASH FLOW STATEMENT.

I have yet to receive a reply.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 3/15, 3:40pm)

Saturday, March 15 - 5:01pm

Why don't you do us all a favor and stop stealing our dreams of financial freedom!

Wow, she's really giving you a lot of power, Luke. I'll bet you didn't even know you had so much!

These people are such a stupid joke.

Is Amway a cult?
Critics of Amway have compared it to a cult whose main product is Amway itself. Amway folk do resemble religious devotees in some respects. They have great faith in their company, its products, and the hope for wealth and early retirement. They attend seminars and meetings that are reminiscent of revivalist meetings, where the power of positive thinking replaces (or is accompanied by) faith in Jesus.

Saturday, March 15 - 5:33pm

reply to post 6.

The MLMs such as Amway are just a finger's breadth away from being Ponzi Schemes which are illegal. Any mode of doing business that relies on the existence of The Greater Fool is suspect.

One obvious question. What happens when the last hopeful sucker is signed up? How does the scheme sustain itself?

Bob Kolker

Saturday, March 15 - 7:22pm

But there's a sucker born every minute - or so am told.......;-)

Monday, March 17 - 6:28am

Luke, I fully support your condemnation of MLM - it is, essentially, a systemic method for ripping people off. They sell no innovative products, just crap that is marked up to exceptionally high prices and they get away with it through the MLM system, which relies on both greed and ignorance, which are hallmarks of the scam artist and how he works. I would also note that many MLM schemes make use of supplements that have absurd "health benefits" that carry legal disclaimers but rely upon various "personal" accounts of their effectiveness. In other words, they sell stuff at absurdly high prices by claiming absurd benefits.

Monday, March 17 - 12:58pm

In all fairness to the MLM advocates, I will concede that I like Amsoil products and use them regularly.

However, their products actually deliver on their claims and the company substantiates them with reliable third-party verification.

Hence, I do not find myself constantly hammered to come to "motivational meetings" to learn of the "business opportunity" because a handful of serious networkers can make enough money retailing a good product without having to resort to such recruiting tactics.

I have researched other synthetic oils but have yet to find anything to outperform Amsoil.

If someone knows otherwise, now is the time to post.

Wednesday, March 19 - 11:21am

=========
Is Amway a cult?
=========

Cult Identification

Adapted from 2008 Mar 19 retrieval of:
http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=5

Universal Definition

CULT –
Any group which has a pyramid-type authoritarian leadership structure with all teaching and guidance coming from the person/persons at the top. The group will claim to be the only way to God; Nirvana; Paradise; Ultimate Reality; Full Potential, Way to Happiness etc, and will use thought reform or mind control techniques to gain control and keep their members.

1. Their leader/s may claim a special, exclusive ministry, revelation or position of authority.
2. They believe they have the only true worldview and take a critical stance regarding competing worldviews while at the same time praising and exalting their own group, leader/s and work.
3. They use intimidation or psychological manipulation to keep members loyal to their ranks.
4. Members will be expected to give substantial financial support to the group.
5. There will be great emphasis on loyalty to the group and its teachings.
6. There will be total control over almost all aspects of the private lives of members.
7. Any dissent or questioning of the group’s teachings is discouraged. Criticism in any form is seen as rebellion. There will be an emphasis on authority, unquestioning obedience and submission.
8. Members are required to demonstrate their loyalty to the group in some way.
9. Attempts to leave or reveal embarrassing facts about the group may be met with threats.

A heuristic minimum threshold for cult-hood might be meeting at least 5 of the above 9 items (with perfect scores indicating the definitive). Using this proposed rubric, here is an evaluation of Objectivism, Amway, and Islam.

Objectivism
1. [ NO ] Their leader/s may claim a special, exclusive ministry, revelation or position of authority.
2. [ YES ] They believe they have the only true worldview and take a critical stance regarding competing worldviews while at the same time praising and exalting their own group, leader/s and work.
3. [ NO ] They use intimidation or psychological manipulation to keep members loyal to their ranks.
4. [ NO ] Members will be expected to give substantial financial support to the group.
5. [ YES ] There will be great emphasis on loyalty to the group and its teachings.
6. [ NO ] There will be total control over almost all aspects of the private lives of members.
7. [ NO ] Any dissent or questioning of the group’s teachings is discouraged. Criticism in any form is seen as rebellion. There will be an emphasis on authority, unquestioning obedience and submission.
8. [ NO ] Members are required to demonstrate their loyalty to the group in some way.
9. [ NO ] Attempts to leave or reveal embarrassing facts about the group may be met with threats.

Cult score: 2 out of 9
Cult status: none

Amway
1. [ YES ] Their leader/s may claim a special, exclusive ministry, revelation or position of authority.
2. [ YES ] They believe they have the only true worldview and take a critical stance regarding competing worldviews while at the same time praising and exalting their own group, leader/s and work.
3. [ YES ] They use intimidation or psychological manipulation to keep members loyal to their ranks.
4. [ YES ] Members will be expected to give substantial financial support to the group.
5. [ YES ] There will be great emphasis on loyalty to the group and its teachings.
6. [ YES ] There will be total control over almost all aspects of the private lives of members.
7. [ Not Applicable ] Bible-based cults may proclaim they have no clergy/laity distinction and no paid ministry class - that they are all equal.
8. [ YES ] Any dissent or questioning of the group’s teachings is discouraged. Criticism in any form is seen as rebellion. There will be an emphasis on authority, unquestioning obedience and submission.
9. [ YES ] Members are required to demonstrate their loyalty to the group in some way.
10. [ YES ] Attempts to leave or reveal embarrassing facts about the group may be met with threats.

Cult score: 9 out of 9
Cult status: undeniable

Islam
1. [ YES ] Their leader/s may claim a special, exclusive ministry, revelation or position of authority.
2. [ YES ] They believe they have the only true worldview and take a critical stance regarding competing worldviews while at the same time praising and exalting their own group, leader/s and work.
3. [ YES ] They use intimidation or psychological manipulation to keep members loyal to their ranks.
4. [ YES ] Members will be expected to give substantial financial support to the group.
5. [ YES ] There will be great emphasis on loyalty to the group and its teachings.
6. [ YES ] There will be total control over almost all aspects of the private lives of members.
7. [ YES ] Any dissent or questioning of the group’s teachings is discouraged. Criticism in any form is seen as rebellion. There will be an emphasis on authority, unquestioning obedience and submission.
8. [ YES ] Members are required to demonstrate their loyalty to the group in some way.
9. [ YES ] Attempts to leave or reveal embarrassing facts about the group may be met with threats.

Cult score: 9 out of 9
Cult status: undeniable

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/19, 11:27am)

Wednesday, March 19 - 11:38am

How do you all feel about my characterization of the cult-status of Objectivism, proper? Here's food for thought ...

Objectivism
1. [ Do the Rand/Peikoff excommunications qualify here? ] Their leader/s may claim a special, exclusive ministry, revelation or position of authority.

6. [ What of the full-life integration aspect of Objectivism? ] There will be total control over almost all aspects of the private lives of members.

7. [ Do the Rand/Peikoff excommunications qualify here? ] Any dissent or questioning of the group’s teachings is discouraged. Criticism in any form is seen as rebellion. There will be an emphasis on authority, unquestioning obedience and submission.

8. [ Are we all required to get permanent tatoos of the New York skyline? ] Members are required to demonstrate their loyalty to the group in some way.

9. [ What of threats of libel? ] Attempts to leave or reveal embarrassing facts about the group may be met with threats.

;-)

Ed

Thursday, March 20 - 7:05pm

How do you all feel about my characterization of the cult-status of Objectivism, proper? Here's food for thought ...

Objectivism
1. [ Do the Rand/Peikoff excommunications qualify here? ] Their leader/s may claim a special, exclusive ministry, revelation or position of authority.

Well, Rand at least was special, and did hold position of authority. She could kick anyone out she pleased. It was her movement, after all, just like any private outfit.

6. [ What of the full-life integration aspect of Objectivism? ] There will be total control over almost all aspects of the private lives of members.

The operative term here is "control." There were never any directives, like "you vill alveyz wake at 5am, and sleep at precisely at 8:45pm. You vill study economics and engineering. Breakfast iz alveyz at 7am.

Nuthin' like that kind of stuff.

7. [ Do the Rand/Peikoff excommunications qualify here? ] Any dissent or questioning of the group’s teachings is discouraged. Criticism in any form is seen as rebellion. There will be an emphasis on authority, unquestioning obedience and submission.

I wouldn't say criticism in any form was viewed as rebellion. I've heard plenty of stories about the "Collective" arguing late into the night over lots of issues. There are still long standing disagreements over many things. Besides, too many people who hold no affiliation to the official "movement" have been influenced. It isn't possible to excommunicate people you don't know, and even if Peikoff tried that, he'd be laughed off. You can't excommunicate a mind. The ideas rage on, no matter what Peikoff does or says.

8. [ Are we all required to get permanent tatoos of the New York skyline? ] Members are required to demonstrate their loyalty to the group in some way.

We have an oath, does that count?

9. [ What of threats of libel? ] Attempts to leave or reveal embarrassing facts about the group may be met with threats.

Naaaah. Insults and flames, but not threats.

Tuesday, March 25 - 8:57am

Ed: To Post 11: Your exact analysis of Cult Identification must, in what refers to Islam, be also applied to Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism and, of course, Scientology.

In view of your brilliant analysis I consider, however, that no religion of any kind whatsoever has the slightest chance of deserving respect. Thus, even just mentioning that there are potential candidates of religions deserving respect (your post 0 of "Religions I can actually respect (not merely tolerate)" - http://rebirthofreason.com/Forum/GeneralForum/1190.shtml) is totally out of place. You should delete it from a Webpage that promotes the establishment of reason.

Please see my post 1 of "Religious Faith Fails its Followers" (http://rebirthofreason.com/cgi-bin/SHQ/SHQ_FirstUnread.cgi?Function=FirstUnread&Board=2&Thread=1992) where I mention what Abu'l-Ala' al-Ma'arri's (975-1057) said: "The inhabitants of the earth are of two sorts: those with brains, but no religions, and those with religion, but no brains." It is not just that we should always follow reason; no, we MUST always follow reason. Please take this into consideration. Ayn Rand would never have done any differently.

Tuesday, March 25 - 5:47pm

Manfred,

Thank you for calling my attention to the potential imperfection in the words which I have typed (in the other thread). I will take your advice and critically examine them against a standard of perfection -- making modifications, qualifications, or deletions (where appropriate).

Ed