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Post 20

Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 12:44pmSanction this postReply
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Marotta writes: "By their nature, people who volunteer for military duty are not introspective empathetic philosophers. They are extroverts, group-joiners and team-builders, with weak ego structures. They cannot admit their fragility."

Wow, a little dose of collectivism, anybody? Thanks for clearing that up, Michael, I didn't know that I had a fragile personality and a weak ego, but hey, why get to know anybody who serves in the military when you can make bullshit psychological statements about them instead?

As an overpaid private [aka a Second Lieutenant, Mr. Garcia can attest to our uselessness:-)], I can honestly state that I serve in the military to defend the greatest nation on earth. Period. And it would be news to my friends that I have a small, fragile ego.

Frankly your ridiculous ad hominems against military personnel show that you have no grounding in reality. I am seriously disappointed by your weak psychological points, because I formerly held you in a modicum of respect.



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Post 21

Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 12:48pmSanction this postReply
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Lieutenant Druckenmiller wrote: "As an overpaid private [aka a Second Lieutenant, Mr. Garcia can attest to our uselessness]"

I would never attest to such a thing, sir.  How would you like your coffee, sir?




Post 22

Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 12:48pmSanction this postReply
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In response to those wanting immediate responses:

Please click the link under my name and count how many posts I've done within the past three days. Clearly, I haven't exactly been ignoring criticisms and comments.

Patience! I'm on two tight work deadlines, and still have to do my taxes. I'll get to further replies as time permits.
(Edited by Robert Bidinotto
on 4/13, 12:49pm)




Post 23

Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 12:51pmSanction this postReply
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Tibor,

You write: “neither do I consider it correct to simply derive rights directly, without any additional considerations, from the ethics of rational self-interest.”

On the previous thread, I noted Rand's argument:
It is useful to keep the derivation in mind, because its premises have a specific scope - and it is a scope violation, an error in logic, to apply the principle of rights outside the scope of those premises. Rand's derivation (in VOS, starting on p. 93) is:

A. My interest requires that I act only in ways that safeguard the conditions ("rights") required for my own life qua man.

B. I will benefit from cooperation and trade with others only if they respect those conditions.

C. My potential trade partners are rational men like myself.

D. Therefore they will only trade and cooperate with me if I respect their rights.

E. Therefore, to benefit from cooperation and trade with other men I must respect their rights.

Now consider a situation in which some men - for example, the subjects of a dictatorship - are being prevented from trading with us. This means that they are outside the scope of (B) until they become free to trade - that is, the principle of rights will not become applicable to them, until the dictatorship over them is defeated. Defeating that dictatorship first is necessary to bring them within the scope of the principle of rights. It is a scope violation - an error in logic - to insist that our struggle to defeat that dictatorship be hampered by having to "respect rights" that the subjects of our enemy do not yet have.
What, exactly, is your objection to Rand's derivation of the moral principle of respect for the rights of others, from self-interest as above?
(Edited by Adam Reed
on 4/13, 12:54pm)




Post 24

Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 1:34pmSanction this postReply
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 I  think, as far as rights goes, while there is no "intrinsic right" when we talk about rights, we must take more into consideration then rational self interest. Rational self interest is derived from Metaphysics and Epistemology...which leads to the ethics of rational self interest. Man and his capacities are the-- is, and his relation to reality, if he uses his capacities properly...generate rational self interest. 

Now, why do we say that a free market, and a free society are beneficial to an individual? Is it not because of what he
"IS"? By his capacities?  We can all see , or most of us can, that the free society is beneficial on a utilitarian standpoint.  People are free to choose their own values, and live in a wealthier society. But, what is it about man, the distinct part about him, that makes living in a free society beneficial?


Also, I would like to bring up the point of self ownership. I think everyone here can agree they own their own body, that when they talk, walk, write, or do anything, it is themselves doing it, and not the collective, nor anyone else. With this in mind, why should anyone be able to tell, anyone else, how or what way they should use their body or live their life, so long as they aren't hurting anyone else? Obviously children should follow a parents rules if they want to live under the parents roof. (As long as a child's life isn't being threatened) If they don't like it, they can move out. 


Adam wrote:

Now consider a situation in which some men - for example, the subjects of a dictatorship - are being prevented from trading with us. This means that they are outside the scope of (B) until they become free to trade - that is, the principle of rights will not become applicable to them, until the dictatorship over them is defeated. Defeating that dictatorship first is necessary to bring them within the scope of the principle of rights. It is a scope violation - an error in logic - to insist that our struggle to defeat that dictatorship be hampered by having to "respect rights" that the subjects of our enemy do not yet have.


While you don't indicate it in your writing, I would just like to point out, that it does not necessarily follow that 'WE' should have to take that dictator out of power to make them our trading partners, or to help them obtain their rights.


Regards,

Shane

(Edited by shane hurren on 4/13, 1:42pm)




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Post 25

Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 3:22pmSanction this postReply
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I don’t see any conflict between rights as derived moral concepts, and “having them” upon birth, like thumbs. The former is a statement of the –nature- and –origin- of rights, the latter regards their –vesting-.

(And let’s forgive one another for common language: Just because someone says “A man –has- rights” doesn’t mean intrinsicism, any more than saying, “The sun has set” means…what the hell’s the word…earthcentrism, that’s not the word, but you know what I mean.)

When Rand asserted that simply being born was sufficient for the possession of rights, I took her to mean that the individual doesn’t have to do anything special in order for rights (a moral concept with a certain derivation in logic) to –apply- to him. He doesn’t have to pay a special protection tax, or be tight with the local bishop, or have aristocratic blood, or anything else. I took her to mean universality of vesting, nothing more.

I know (I think) that Adam Reed doesn’t mean this, but his statements above seem to imply that man has no rights until his oppressors are vanquished. I’m having difficulty squaring his scope limitation with the notion I hold that men always have rights, whether acknowledged or not.

Here’s another example where I have trouble with his scope limitation: If rights don’t apply to those men trapped in a slave-pen because I can’t trade with them, then what about a poodle groomer living in Boise? I’m confident I’ll never have occasion to trade with her, either.

I’m thinking that once the derivation is understood, the vesting must be: Every Man, not just the ones that can be fit into the derivation. In this sense, I see the derivation and vesting as separate.

Jon



Post 26

Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 3:38pmSanction this postReply
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Robert: “Like all other moral principles, "rights" end at the point of a gun…At that point, to unilaterally remain committed to recognizing the moral principle of "rights," when your coercive adversary does not, is to commit oneself to a course of self-sacrifice, in the name of what has now become a platonic abstraction.”

Robert, I don’t think this essay is up to your usual high standard. I would be very surprised to find any natural rights theorist arguing for a type of Kantian categorical imperative in regard to rights, although I can’t speak for libertarians and anarchists on this one.

Nor am I convinced that the introduction of “context” solves the dilemma of the hostage situation, whether that is regarded as a specific situation, or the broader “hostage population”. If rights are social extensions of a morality of self-interest, and no rights apply in this situation, presumably I would have to fall back on ethics as a guide to my actions.

The ethics of self-interest will then tell me that I should take whatever means are required to preserve myself. But what about the interests of the hostage population? Can we say that each individual hostage has a justified interest in his own self-preservation? If so, whose interest takes precedence, theirs or mine?

I don't think the introduction of “context” solves the original problem, because the hostage situation is itself the context. The context that you introduce is in fact an additional principle: that rights end at the point of a gun. That may well be the case, but that doesn’t resolve the issue, it merely shifts the argument.

Brendan




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Post 27

Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 4:04pmSanction this postReply
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Brendan raised an interesting point: The perspective of the hostages and their freedom of action within the concept of rights. And thanks, Brendan, for providing the background plot for MY Bidinotto Shootout scenario:

I am one of the hostages. I’m packing, but so far only I know that. Bidinotto rounds the corner, the hostage-taker says, “Wrong place, wrong time. Now you die, Bidinotto!” Robert draws a machine gun. I know I’m doomed if I fail to act. This distraction of Robert’s was all the opportunity I needed to produce my weapon without the hostage-taker noticing. Being the more immediate threat, I drop Robert where he stands then I shoot the distracted hostage-taker.

So, Brendan, you asked: “Can we say that each individual hostage has a justified interest in his own self-preservation? If so, whose interest takes precedence, theirs or mine?”

MINE.

Ask Robert and he will say, “Mine.” And we are both right.

Jon



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Post 28

Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 4:58pmSanction this postReply
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Brendan writes:
Nor am I convinced that the introduction of “context” solves the dilemma of the hostage situation, whether that is regarded as a specific situation, or the broader “hostage population”. If rights are social extensions of a morality of self-interest, and no rights apply in this situation, presumably I would have to fall back on ethics as a guide to my actions.
That presumption is correct.

In normal, non-coercive social situations, there are no necessary sacrifices of interests among men. One man's gain does not come at another's expense. Voluntary relationships are to mutual advantage; and in a fully non-coercive society, each individual is free to pursue his own happiness without sacrificing others. He is free to "maximize gain."

But under the threat of force, you no longer have the alternative of "maximizing gain." An aggressor has eliminated that option. His threat of destruction compels you to pursue some course you would not have freely chosen -- a course you would otherwise regard as harmful.

When an aggressor limits your choices to various harms rather than values, no fully moral choice is possible to you. 

The ethics of self-interest will then tell me that I should take whatever means are required to preserve myself. But what about the interests of the hostage population? Can we say that each individual hostage has a justified interest in his own self-preservation? If so, whose interest takes precedence, theirs or mine?
There is no metaphysical hierarchy or yardstick "out there" by which one person's "interest" is superior to another's. And under normal social circumstances, where rights are mutually respected, there is no such "conflict of interests." But that is not the case under coercion.

Under an aggressor's coercion, facing only degrees of harm to your values, you are reduced to crude calculations of self-preservation. In hostage situations, for example, the aggressor engineers an artificial conflict of interests between you and others -- even between your survival and theirs.  Instead of cooperating and trading with others to mutually "maximize gain," the only self-interest alternative left to you may be: "minimize loss."

At the extreme (as in war), that may mean sacrificing the interests, even the lives, of others for your own survival.

But morally speaking, you are not to blame. It is the aggressor who is to blame. He is forcing people's normal interests into conflict: the hostage(s) will be sacrificed by the aggressor, unless other individuals sacrifice their lives or best interests for the sake of the hostage(s).

That is not a "moral alternative." And there is no "moral" answer -- except to get out of the situation with as little loss to one's life and important values as possible.

And so it is for the hostage. His self-interest may be pitted against yours, and he may try to defend himself against you, if he sees you as a threat.

That is the ugliness of force and coercion: it eliminates moral choice. And in the absence of morality, all are reduced to a primitive, often savage quest for simple self-preservation. 




Post 29

Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 5:00pmSanction this postReply
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Jon, under your thought experiment, you are correct.
(Edited by Robert Bidinotto on 4/14, 5:32am)




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Post 30

Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 5:13pmSanction this postReply
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Robert said: At the extreme (as in war), that may mean sacrificing the interests, even the lives, of others for your own survival. But morally speaking, you are not to blame. It is the aggressor who is to blame. He is forcing people's normal interests into conflict: the hostage(s) will be sacrificed by the aggressor, unless other individuals sacrifice their lives or best interests for the sake of the hostage(s). 

Bingo!

This is the essential concept that is always dropped, by those that deal in moral equivalency as a means of disparaging the West, in vile comparisons with the most primitive tyrannies on earth. It is their weapon of choice. The idea being to destroy the context, once the context is destroyed - any argument can be advanced; no matter how viscous, no matter how ridiculous the analogy. After context, the next two victims are 'degree' and 'proportionality'. Combine this with a hefty dose of revisionist historians, and you have the recipe for LewRockwell.

 

George

 
 




Post 31

Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 5:15pmSanction this postReply
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In the hostage situation it is your hierarchy of values -  that your own life is your top value above the rights of others that allows you to shoot the hostages in order to save your own life.

Of course, faced with a life threatening situation you are going to put the value of your own life above all else, even your respect for the rights of others (which is normally in your rational self-interest). 

However, there may be some rational individuals that are willing to sacrifice their life for others if they have placed a higher value on the hostages "right to life".




Post 32

Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 7:41pmSanction this postReply
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I am largely in agreement with this point Robert makes: "Regarding the other point -- that concern for the rights of others doesn't appear to emerge directly from an ethics of rational self-interest -- I disagree. This assumes that it is not to my individual self-interest to generalize the concept of moral boundaries (rights) as a principle of social ethics.
"If we do not establish generally recognized moral boundaries for individual action in society, the only alternative will be a society governed by unrestrained power relationships -- which is demonstrably not to the best interests of individuals. But if our goal is maximizing our individual well-being and happiness in society, then establishing a mutual framework of rights is the best -- arguably, the only -- way to achieve that objective." However, the reasoning involved from one's rational self-interest all the way to the benefits one gains from generalizing the concept of moral boundaries is one that is pretty tough to carry out, while figuring out one's rational self-interest in ordinary life situations isn't all that complicated. This is why I said "directly" (or perhaps I should have said "simply"). Which is why we had to wait for John Locke to suggest and, in time, Ayn Rand, to undertake (a sketch of) this task. The understanding of the generalization involved is no small feat and requires subsidiary knowledge about human nature, about long term self-interest, and so forth. It may even involve a complicated knowledge of other people's dignity and rationality. (I think this is what Eric Mack is after in his critique of Rand on this point--see his paper in JARS.)




Post 33

Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 8:01pmSanction this postReply
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Tibor, I really don't think we're in disagreement. I would be the last to claim that the case here can be made purely deductively. Empirical input of the sort you describe is required at every stage of the argument...else we float off into rationalism. Let me reassure you on this point, if you got a contrary impression from my brief essay.




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Post 34

Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 8:17pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Adam. I broke my promise to myself by checking in for a minute to relax from tax preparation. That's when I encountered your post concerning the lack of rights that supposedly characterizes the subjects of a dictatorship.

If I understand you, a subject of a dictator loses his right to life by virtue of being restricted by the dictator. He loses this right to life because one not-so-oppressed is not free to trade with the unfortunate subject. If the shackles of dictatorship are broken, then the former subject's right to life blooms.

Here is why I think you are mistaken. First, anyone may be restricted in his freedom to make choices at any time. For example, if I worry that someone might sue me maliciously (and successfully given the sympathy of judges/juries to redistribute wealth through litigation)I might well pass on transactions that I would normally take advantage of. Of course, in the USA there are a myriad of regulations and taxes that restrict one's freedom to trade. I am not free to travel to Cuba, to sell real estate without a license, to offer investment advice without passing a battery of tests and continuing ed tests, to ship livestock, own land, subdivide land, inherit property, hunt, drink beer, fly an airplane, drive a car, or smoke cigarettes without permission from the state. Such permission is by no means assured. Have I lost my right to life? Can an agent of some better land legitimately take my life in the name of liberating mankind? If a "freedom fighter" from Yemen bombs a US Navy ship that puts in to refuel, for the purpose of killing American soldiers--near slaves during their term of service, partial slaves after their release--and the freedom fighter proclaims the liberation of Americans from state imposed restrictions as his goal, has he struck a blow for freedom? What exactly distinguishes a dictatorship from a free country for the purpose of your calculations of who has the right to live and who may have to die? The war aims of a Republican adminstration?

What if the dictator favors some in his regime with more freedom than others, so that some are really quite free to choose in broad areas of their lives. They might enjoy freedom that approaches ours. Are these semi-free subjects strictly dead men walking? What about the principle of proportionality: if they are partly unfree, should they lose only a proportional part of their rights? Or does the slightest restriction of their freedom extinguish their right to life?

Given your thesis that one oppressed loses his right to live, then rights are ultimately vested in the decisions of various oppressors. These scoundrels now get to determine who gets to live, and who forfeits this right.Those they set free, by permitting them to move away, acquire rights; those they restrict have no rights. But if the restricted have no rights, then the suffering imposed on them is not injustice, for the subjects attain the moral status of animals, lacking moral agency because of restrictions, lacking rights because they are not free to patronize McDonalds or Intuit. I have always assumed that dictators violated individual rights; by your reasoning however, they extinguish them in accordance with natural law. What a perverse universe we inhabit!
 
Finally, the dictator who forfeited his right to life by imprisoning his subjects is himself politically free, because he makes decisions for himself and others. By virtue of his freedom, does he thereby retain his right to life? Why should his act of forfeiture trump his assertion of his own freedom?

If I understand your thinking, its strict application would extinguish the rights of nearly everyone throughout history.  




Post 35

Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 9:20pmSanction this postReply
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"I am one of the hostages. I’m packing, but so far only I know that. Bidinotto rounds the corner, the hostage-taker says, “Wrong place, wrong time. Now you die, Bidinotto!” Robert draws a machine gun. I know I’m doomed if I fail to act. This distraction of Robert’s was all the opportunity I needed to produce my weapon without the hostage-taker noticing. Being the more immediate threat, I drop Robert where he stands then I shoot the distracted hostage-taker."

I've seen a lot of hostage scenarios mentioned to try to show rights or lack thereof in different cases, but never one of a defending hostage killing a rescuer. That is an extremely good and creative example, and I think your resolution is spot-on.




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Post 36

Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 11:08pmSanction this postReply
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MJ Adler's perspective on rights (contrasted with the Bidinotto Manifesto on rights) ...

------------
Note: This post serves to stimulate discussion by drawing from, and expanding on, the insights of Mortimer J. Adler.
------------

One of my gurus is Mortimer J. Adler. I know, I know, he was ultimately a Christian philosopher with some intrinsic views, but please, check out this man's insight --I suspect that it is valuable here.

I feel that MJ Adler was the preeminent PROFESSIONAL philosopher of objective rights/values in the middle of the 20th Century (Ayn Rand and, to a lesser extent, Eric Hoffer, being preeminent pseudo-professional advocates--in the middle of the 20th Century) ...

------------
First a telling quote from this deceased man ...
------------

Source:
http://www.radicalacademy.com/adlerdirectory.htm

"The only standard we have for judging all of our social, economic, and political institutions and
arrangements as just or unjust, as good or bad, as better or worse, derives from our conception of the good life for man on earth, and from our conviction that, given certain external conditions, it is possible for men to make good lives for themselves by their own efforts." Mortimer J. Adler

------------

My own interpretation of this quote:

Right and wrong can only be known against background conditions of the "what-is-possible." It has to do with man's nature as man qua man, man's powers and potentialities, man's goodness. It doesn't have to do with how "bad" man can be when he turns his back on his own powers and potentialities. Normative concepts use the exemplary (the superior of all possible instantiations) to judge the inferiority (distance away from the highest good) or superiority (closeness to that which maximizes happiness for the acting / interacting agents).

------------
Now, excerpts from some of his work ...
------------

Natural Rights and Civil Rights

Source:
http://radicalacademy.com/adlernatcivrights.htm

If human rights are natural rights, as opposed to those that are civil, constitutional, or legal, then their being rights by natural endowment makes them inalienable in the sense just indicated.

Their existence as natural endowments gives them moral authority even when they lack legal force or legal sanctions. Their moral authority imposes moral obligations, which may or may not be respected or fulfilled.

------------[break]

When a human right is not acknowledged by the state, or when it is not enforced or when it is violated by a government, it still exists. It retains its moral authority even though it is not enforced or has been transgressed. If these rights did not continue in existence in spite of such adverse circumstances, then we would have no basis for condemning as unjust a government that failed to enforce them or that trampled on them.

------------

On the Mistake of Giving Primacy of
the Right Over the Good

Source:
http://radicalacademy.com/adlerrightgood.htm

Two serious errors that affect our understanding of justice have already been touched on and corrected in earlier chapters of this book, explicitly or by implication.

One, the mistake of giving primacy or precedence to the right over the good, had its origin in the moral philosophy of Immanuel Kant and was given currency in this century in a book, "The Right and the Good", published by an Oxford philosopher, Professor W. D. Ross, in the early thirties. It stems from ignorance of the distinction between real and apparent goods--goods needed and goods wanted--an ignorance that could have been repaired by a more perceptive reading of Aristotle's "Ethics."

Once that distinction is acknowledged and its full significance understood, it will be seen at once that it is impossible to know what is right and wrong in the conduct of one individual toward another until and unless one knows what is really good for each of them ...[my insight: goodness is a relation, not a property--a proper relation to your identity/nature]

Real goods, based on natural needs, are convertible into natural rights, based on those same needs. To wrong another person is to violate his natural right to some real good, thereby depriving him of its possession and consequently impeding or interfering with his pursuit of happiness.

In short, one cannot do good and avoid injuring or doing evil to others without knowing what is really good for them. The only goods anyone has a natural right to are real, not apparent, goods. We do not have a natural right to the things we want; only to those we need.

"To each according to his wants," far from being a maxim of justice, makes no practical sense at all; for, if put into practice, it would result in what Thomas Hobbes called "the war of each against all," a state of affairs [anarchy] he also described as "nasty, brutish, and short."

If, as Professor Ross maintained, the right had primacy over the good, we should be able to determine what is right or just in our conduct toward others without any consideration of what is really good for them. But that is impossible.

The second mistake, equally serious for the subject at hand, made its appearance more recently in a widely discussed and overpraised book, "A Theory of Justice", written by Harvard professor John Rawls. The error consists in identifying justice with fairness in the dealings of individuals with one another as well as in actions taken by society in dealing with its members.

Fairness, as we have seen, consists in treating equals equally and unequals unequally in proportion to their inequality. That is only one of several principles of justice, by no means the only principle and certainly not the primary one. [I think it is!]

If, as Professor Rawls maintained, justice consists solely in fairness, murdering someone, committing mayhem, breaching a promise, falsely imprisoning another, enslaving him, libeling him, maliciously deceiving him, and rendering him destitute, would not be unjust, for there is no unfairness in any of these acts. They are all violations of rights, not violations of the precept that equals should be treated equally.

Only when the facts of human equality and inequality in personal respects and in the functions or services that persons perform provide the basis for determining what is just and unjust can justice and injustice be identified with fairness and unfairness.

When, on the contrary, the determination of what is just and unjust rests on the needs and rights inherent in human nature, then justice and injustice are based on what is really good and evil for human beings, not upon their personal equality or inequality or upon the equality and inequality of their performances.

The fact that all human beings, by nature equal, are also equally endowed with natural rights does not make their equality or their equal possession of rights the basis of a just treatment of them. If only two human beings existed, one could be unjust to the other by maliciously deceiving or falsely imprisoning him. That wrongful act can be seen as unjust with out any reference to equality or inequality. It is unjust because it violates a right.

Murder, mayhem, rape, abduction, libel, breach of promise, false imprisonment, enslavement, subjection to despotic power, perjury, theft--these and many other violations of the moral or civil law are all unjust without being in any way unfair. They are all violations of natural or legal rights. That is what their injustice consists in, not unfairness.

Murder wrongfully deprives an individual of his right to life. Mayhem, torture, assault and battery wrongfully impair the health of an individual, which is a real good to which he has a natural right. False imprisonment, enslavement, subjection to despotic power transgress the individual's right to liberty. Libel, perjury, theft take away from individuals what is right fully theirs--their good name, the truth they have a right to, property that is theirs by natural or legal right. Rendering others destitute, leaving them without enough wealth to lead decent human lives, deprives them of the economic goods to which they have a natural right.

In all these instances of injustice, which consist in the violation of rights, the ultimate injury done the unjustly treated individual lies in the effect it has upon his or her pursuit of happiness. The circumstances under which individuals live and the treatment they receive from other individuals or from the state are just to the extent that they facilitate his pursuit of happiness, unjust to the extent that they impair, impede, or frustrate that pursuit.

------------

Natural Needs = Natural Rights

Source:
http://radicalacademy.com/adlernaturalneeds.htm

Resting on the distinction between the real and the apparent good, a basic tenet of the commonsense view is that what is really good for any single individual is good in exactly the same sense for every other human being, precisely because that which is really good is that which satisfies desires or needs inherent in human nature -- the makeup that is common to all men because they are members of the same biological species. The totum bonum -- happiness or the good life -- is the same for all men, and each man is under the same basic moral obligation as every other -- to make a good life for himself.

Two things follow from this controlling insight.

Every real good is a common good, not an individual good, not one that corresponds to the idiosyncratic desires or inclinations of this or that individual. The same, of course, holds true of the totum bonum as the sum total of all real goods.

------------[break]

In addition, when I know the things that are really good for me and what my happiness consists in, and when I understand that each real good and the totum bonum as the sum of all of them are common goods, the same for all men, I can then discern the natural rights each individual has -- rights that others have which impose moral obligations upon me, and rights that I have which impose moral obligations upon others. [my note: the moral obligation NOT to infringe on others' rights--negative rights]

------------[break]

But what is a moral right as contradistinguished from a legal right? It is obvious at once that it must be a right that exists without being created by positive law or social custom. What is not the product of legal or social conventions must be a creation of nature, or to state the matter more precisely, it must have its being in the nature of men. Moral rights are natural rights, rights inherent in man's common or specific nature, just as his natural desires or needs are. Such rights, being antecedent to society and government, may be recognized and enforced by society or they may be transgressed and violated, but they are inalienable in the sense that, not being the gift of legal enactment, they cannot be taken away or annulled by acts of government.

------------[break]

That which I do not need for my own good life or that which is not an essential ingredient in my pursuit of happiness does not impose a duty on me, as far as my own private conduct is concerned, nor does it impose a duty on others with regard to their conduct toward me because such matters give me no natural or moral rights that others must respect.

------------[break]

Natural needs make certain things really good for me; the things that are really good for me impose moral obligations on me in the conduct of my private life; these, in turn, give me certain moral or natural rights, and my having such rights imposes moral obligations on others with respect to me.

------------[break]

And just as natural needs and the real goods correlative to them are the same for all men because they have the same specific nature, so too, and for the same reason, the remaining items on the list are the same for all men. We all have the same moral obligations in the conduct of our private lives; we all have the same natural rights; and we all have the same duties toward others.

As our primary moral obligation is to make a really good life for ourselves, so our primary natural right is our right to the pursuit of happiness. To respect this right that I have, others are under the obligation not to do anything that prevents me or seriously impedes me from discharging my basic obligation to myself. If I did not know in some detail the things I ought to do in order to discharge the obligation I am under to make a good life for myself, I could not know what behavior on the part of others interfered with my pursuit of happiness and so was wrong -- a violation of my natural rights. In other words, all my subsidiary natural rights [break] stem from my right to the pursuit of happiness and from my obligation to make a good life for myself. They are rights to the things I need to achieve that end and to discharge that obligation.

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The only point I wish to reiterate here, because it is of such prime importance, is that the individual would not have a natural right to the pursuit of happiness if he did not have a moral obligation to make a good life for himself; and if he did not have that one basic natural right, he would not have any subsidiary natural rights, because all other natural rights relate to the elements of individual happiness or to the parts of a good life -- the diverse real goods that, taken together, constitute the whole that is the sum of all these parts.

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If we did not know or could not know what is really good or bad for the individual, we would not and could not know what is right and wrong in the conduct of one individual toward others; nor could we know what is right and wrong in the individual's conduct of his own life. If, without reference to others, we speak of an individual as acting rightly or wrongly, we are saying no more than that he is or is not discharging his moral obligation to make a really good life for himself. So when, with reference to others, we say that an individual acts rightly or wrongly, we are similarly saying that he is or is not discharging his moral obligations toward them, based on their natural rights -- rights that are grounded in each man's moral obligation to make a good life for himself.

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There is some point in preserving the distinction between an individual's moral obligations to himself and his moral obligations to others. He does not claim any rights against himself, as he claims rights against others. His moral obligations toward others are grounded in their rights, and determine the rightness or wrongness of his conduct toward them.

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We have seen that fortitude and temperance, which are aspects of moral virtue or strength of character, and prudence or soundness of judgment, operate instrumentally as necessary means toward the end of making a good life for one's self. A good moral character and sound judgment would also seem to be involved in making the effort that we are under a moral obligation to make in our conduct toward others -- to act rightly toward them and to avoid wronging them, which is another way of saying that we ought not to injure them by preventing them from making good lives for themselves. Thus we can see what is meant by saying that justice in general consists in having the moral character that the individual needs in the effort to make a good life, for when his moral character or virtue is directed toward the good life that others are under an obligation to make for themselves, it has the aspect we refer to as justice rather than as temperance or fortitude.

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Our basic natural right to the pursuit of happiness, and all the subsidiary rights that it encompasses, impose moral obligations on organized society and its institutions as well as upon other individuals. If another individual is unjust when he does not respect our rights, and so injures us by interfering with or impeding our pursuit of happiness, the institutions of organized society, its laws, and its government, are similarly unjust when they deprive individuals of their natural rights.

Just governments, it has been correctly declared, are instituted to secure these rights.

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On Inalienable Rights

Source:
http://radicalacademy.com/adlerinanrights.htm

One question still remains concerning the inalienability of natural human rights. The Declaration mentions our inalienable right to life and to liberty. But when criminals are justly convicted and sentenced to terms in prison, are we not taking away their liberty? And when they are convicted of capital offenses for which death is the penalty, are we not taking away their lives? If so, how then do the rights in question still exist and remain inalienable?

It is easier to answer the question about imprisonment than it is to answer the question about the death penalty. Two points are involved in the answer.

First, the criminal by his antisocial conduct and by his violation of a just law has forfeited not the right, but the temporary exercise of it. His incarceration in prison does not completely remove his freedom of action, but it severely limits the exercise of that freedom for the period of imprisonment.

The right remains in existence both during imprisonment and after release from prison. If the prison warden attempted to make the prisoner his personal slave, that would be an act of injustice on his part, because enslavement would be a violation of the human right to the status of a free man. This human right belongs to those in a prison as well as those outside its walls.

When the criminal's term of imprisonment comes to an end, what is restored is not the individual's right to liberty (as if that had been taken away when he entered the prison), but only his fuller exercise of that right. It is the exercise of that right that is given back to him when he walks out of the prison gates, not the right itself, for that was never taken away or alienated.

When we come to capital punishment, we cannot deal with the question in the same way. The death penalty takes away more than the exercise of the right to life. It takes away life itself.

If that right is inalienable, it cannot be taken away by the state, nor can it be forfeited by the individual's misconduct. It is one thing to forfeit the exercise of a right and quite another to divest one's self of a right entirely. What cannot be taken away by another cannot be divested by one's self.

It would, therefore, appear to be the case that the death penalty is unjust as a violation of a natural human right. Nevertheless, capital punishment has been pragmatically justified as serving the welfare of society by functioning as a deterrent to the gravest of felonies.

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I hope that this stimulates discussion,
Ed


(Edited by Ed Thompson
on 4/13, 11:13pm)




Post 37

Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 12:22amSanction this postReply
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Adler's perspective seems to rule out capital punishment--however, I am not yet convinced that capital punishment is, in principle, "wrong."

Adler's view is that rights always remain--regardless of the scope of realization of such--another apparent conundrum (of which, I hope, there is discussion).

Ed





Post 38

Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 9:04amSanction this postReply
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Also, Adler's standard is human happiness, not human life (he is a "thrive-alist"--not a "survivalist"). This makes his reasoning (on rights) become contrasted with Rand's.

Rand held the Right to Life as the logical and existential genesis of all other rights, Adler held the Right to a Pursuit (of Happiness) as the logical and existential genesis of other rights.

Ed



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Post 39

Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 9:43amSanction this postReply
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Ed,
I hope that this stimulates discussion
ahem... that little post of yours was 3195 words long on a tangent.

Dayamm!

May I suggest contributing an article to stimulate discussion?

Michael




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