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Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 5:40amSanction this postReply
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Kelly, very nice. This brings up two interesting questions, for me. One is the morality of doing or not doing, what you are good at, another is the appropriateness of others *expecting* you to do it (mostly for *their* pleasure or benefit).


John



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Post 1

Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 5:55amSanction this postReply
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What a great point you make here. In fact, you make two great points.
The first should be so basic to anyone that calls him or herself a Sense of Life Objectivist that I am surprised that it has to be made so often here; the goal of your life is YOUR LIFE; not Objectivism, not reaching the limits of your talents as defined by someone else. First of all, innate talent is GROSSLY exaggerated most of the time in judging an artist. Lanza, at 19, was okay, but nothing spectacular. Lanza at 23 was spectacular. HARD AND INTELLIGENT WORK made him a great singer, not a big chest. Every year Placido Domingo sings better; every year, Lucianno Pavarotti sings worse. Domingo works to expand his repertoire and to maximize his vocal talents.; Pavarotti, relatively speaking, lets it all slide and relies on the work he did forty years ago.
Innate talent and inspiration certainly play a roll, but have you ever noticed that great symphonies are conjured up by people who work their asses off, not by those who sit in the corner and wait for lightning to strike?
The second point is this; more often than not we are drawn to things we are good at because our hard work produces faster results. Kelly, I think you should be admired MORE for excelling at something that DIDN't comes as easily to you. My older brother is pretty good at everything, but he had a strong dislike for math when he was in high school. He decided that as a matter of discipline and for the adventure of it that he would throw himself into math and major in it. He is now one of a handful of people in the world who holds multiple actuarial degrees and has had his own successful company for most of his adult life. By the way, once he concentrated on math he discovered he loved it. Hard work helped him discover this love.
Only you can can determine if you are wasting your life; certainly not your parents nor society. Many people run away in fear from their abilities and do waste their lives, but that is a different point altogether. Other factors are relative, too, but those being equal: your greatest test as to whether you have chosen your life's work well is to what degree you have achieved happiness.



Post 2

Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 6:20amSanction this postReply
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Kelly,
    An excellent article and very well written.  (You should go into writing!)  James alluded to this point, but one argument that adds weight to yours is the case of someone who excels at many things.  We all know them.  In that case, which do they choose?  To what talent are they to be true?

Thanks,
Glenn

(Edited by Glenn Fletcher on 4/19, 9:44am)

(Edited by Glenn Fletcher on 4/19, 9:44am)




Post 3

Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 6:50amSanction this postReply
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Kelly,

What a timely article! This type of insight is one of the reasons I consider you one of the most rational people I know.  The discussion about Lanza got me to thinking, in my spare moments, about ethics and responsibility to oneself.  I hadn't resolved the question of whether one has some sort of "duty" to fulfill a particular potential.  And here you come and resolve this question in such a clear and incisive manner!  Thank you. 

Jason




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Post 4

Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 6:59amSanction this postReply
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A wonderful piece, very thought-provoking.

I've wrestled with my own issues in this area. I have abilities in a number of areas. Exploiting some of them might have been rewarding, and considerably more lucrative than those I have selected. But they would have been too narrow for me. I looked down the road and could see that I would have been frustrated, knowing that certain careers would have constrained my Self-expression (the capitalization is intended).

A brilliant book in this regard (and Tibor would back me up on this) is the late philosopher David Norton's Personal Destinies. It presents his own theory of ethical individualism, some of which I disagree with because it has intrinsicist premises. But as an expression of what it means to seek self-fulfillment, it's magnificent. Highly recommended.

Thanks again, Kelly.




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Post 5

Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 7:44amSanction this postReply
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Kelly,

I fully agree with you about a person being the one who decides what to do with his/her inborn talent, regardless of the degree or type. I do think you were a bit harsh on Hong though, because in context, she did not necessarily mean any moral obligation to use a talent.

Those who possess a specific talent and happen to passionately love the same field can't help but strongly feel gratitude to nature/God/uga uga, whatever, for being created a cut above ordinary mortals. Because of their love, they feel an obligation to fully use and train the gift they were born with. (I use the term "gift" colloquially, in the sense of having something most others do not have.)

This feeling of gratitude is very real and falls into the category of the "marvel at nature" emotions that come with simply existing as a human being (but which many rational self-interest practitioners seem hell bent on expunging from their soul). It is a powerful and proper emotion, but as your arguments hint, it is not for everyone.

Talent without love equals blind duty, and we all know what to think of that.

I am especially sensitive on the opposite scale of what you wrote about. I was an artistic producer in pop music for a number of years in Brazil. After word got out that an American producer was around, you should have seen the unending line of talentless, mediocre, horrible, stupid, stubborn, hard-pushing, God-awful, tasteless, shameless aspirants to fame and glory beating down my door. And all essentially clamoring, "Please make me rich and famous without me having to do a damn thing but smile!"

It is nearly impossible to convey what seeing a spark of talent means in that context. I had to learn patience the hard way.

This is made worse by the entertainment industry itself. There is a product machine that churns out flash-in-the-pan one-day wonders who actually should be driving a taxi or whatever, maybe going to school for something they are good at. If they can't sing, no problem. there are professional singers who record for them and they lip sync. If they can't dance, they will be decked out with a costume and choreographed with dancers. And it goes on.

These "artists" see all this going on around them and think, "Look at my work." But it is not their work. It is the work of a bunch of professionals in a hit machine covering for them.

Then the machine puts them on public display and milks everything it can from pure hype. And these paragons of artistic splendor love every minute of it. They soak it up as their due in life.

But then these poor souls, with the taste of fame in their mouths and without the talent to sustain a career, are spit out and cast aside by the machine when their flash run burns out. They spend most of their lives thereafter trying to regain something they never really had in the first place.

I personally have met a bunch of them. I sure wasted a lot of my own precious time trying to help a few regain paradise lost. It almost always couldn't be done, except for when I interested the hit machine again. But that was really hard because the hit machine caters mostly to youth and these artists stubbornly refused to keep getting older.

So, maybe there is no moral obligation to use an innate talent, but there sure is a moral obligation to look at yourself in the mirror and see when you don't have it. Lying to yourself about anything, but especially about having a talent you don't have, is not only evil, it will make you a real pain in the ass to everyone around you (especially long-suffering tortured producers).

As a Beatle song says, "All the lonely people. Where do they all come from?"

Michael




Post 6

Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 8:14amSanction this postReply
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Thanks everyone!

Michael, I meant to make it clear that I was only using what Hong said as a springboard. If that wasn't clear enough, let me make it clear. I saw in what she said something implicit in many of the posts about Lanza. It got me thinking, and I wanted to write about it. I wasn't responding to her in any particular way. By the way, did she take off for good? I hope not!

Kelly



Post 7

Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 8:19amSanction this postReply
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Glenn,

Strangely enough, I am finding that I enjoy writing SOLO articles. I just hated academic writing. So maybe I can turn my talents this way! I'm still in search of my career path (I have several maybes like farming, writing a book of essays on the history, culture, and people of the particularly fascinating town we live in, owning a health food store, getting back into midwifery), so I have been doing lots of thinking about what I like and why and what I am good at.

Kelly



Post 8

Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 9:39amSanction this postReply
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Another brilliant article Kelly!

It's easy to understand the sentiment that it's a shame for someone to waste their talent, but a situation where a individual was forced by his parents into a path not of his own choosing because of some supposed "god given" talent is a surely a far greater tragedy.

MH




Post 9

Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 11:26amSanction this postReply
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Kelly,

This article ought to be read by every parent - or at least every parent whose child happens to have a talent or two. Not every child has the inner strength to follow her own happiness even by the more difficult path...



Post 10

Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 1:13pmSanction this postReply
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"No one is born with any kind of 'talent' and, therefore, every skill has to be acquired. Writers are made, not born. To be exact, writers are self-made." -- Ayn Rand

Kelly: You focus on the intrinsicist error of accepting a duty to do something one is allegedly good at. But as always, the subjectivist error looms near. Any thoughts on it?




Post 11

Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 1:40pmSanction this postReply
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Shayne,

Would you please elaborate on what exactly the "subjectivist error" is in the situation Kelly described?  I just want to understand what error you didn't find treated in Kelly's comments. 

Jason




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Post 12

Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 2:14pmSanction this postReply
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Shayne, as for the Ayn Rand quote, she is clearly wrong.  Mozart wrote symphonies at 4 years old.  I don't think he was working that much harder than other preschoolers.  Talent is worthless without hard work, of course, but anyone with eyes can see that talents are clearly inborn.  I would suggest looking at reality rather than the Lexicon.  As for your question about subjectivism, I don't have a clue what you are talking about.  If you see any subjectivism in what I have written, please point it out.  I wasn't focusing on intrinsicism either; I was focusing on "Talents and Values," as the title of my article suggests.  It is your focus which is on intrinsicism and subjectivism.

Kelly




Post 13

Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 2:15pmSanction this postReply
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There may be a semantics problem here. Rand appears to be using "talent" as synonymous with "skill." But Kelly appears to be using "talent" as synonymous with "innate capacity." Webster's sides with Kelly, defining talent as "special, often creative natural ability."

A natural ability, and a developed skill, aren't the same thing. And innate natural abilities do exist, in different areas, and in different degrees.

Some things "come easier" for people; some things are just harder, because they lack the requisite capacity. Just as I don't believe every man has the same genetic capacity as Arnold Schwartzenegger for physical development, I don't believe every man has the same genetic capacity for intellectual development, either. Not everyone has Bach's innate capacity for music, or Einstein's for physcis, or Astaire's for tap dancing or Edison's for technical invention. Try as he might -- and he worked so much harder -- Salieri could never be Mozart, for whom musical inventiveness was effortless.

P. S. Kelly: "I would suggest looking at reality rather than the Lexicon." ROFL! Bravo!
(Edited by Robert Bidinotto
on 4/19, 2:17pm)




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Post 14

Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 2:53pmSanction this postReply
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Your gratuitous insult of me without knowing what I actually think, and your readiness to dismiss Ayn Rand, rather than try to work out what she -- a genius -- actually meant, really speaks for itself. And if you can't recognize that your article is fundamentally one warning against intrinsicism, well that just demonstrates that you don't really know what it is. Fine, but don't hide behind the claim that I'm changing the subject.

I recognize the distinction between developed skill and innate aptitude. I think you conflate them in your article. Aptitude is very general. Mozart, I am sure, was not merely talented toward music, but had an innate capacity for creation that transcended music. It's just that he chose to apply it to music, in part because his father encouraged it.

Men can't be born with the "talent" to write symphonies. That is just plain ridiculous.




Post 15

Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 3:31pmSanction this postReply
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Kelly I've sent you a PM detailing exactly what your article was *really* about...fundamentally






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Post 16

Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 3:39pmSanction this postReply
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Shayne,
Mozart, I am sure, was not merely talented toward music, but had an innate capacity for creation that transcended music.
I have read studies on the physical attributes of the brain of those endowed with an extra-high degree of innate musical capacity. I would have to look this up, but from what I read, those studied have an abnormally high neurological communication pathway between the left side and the right side of the brain that has been measured scientifically.

Since organizing "musical concepts" from "musical percepts" follows principles similar to all concept formation, it stands to reason that a person with a tremendous innate capacity for tonal organization would learn how to write in the musical structures of the time at a very early age, while other lesser mortals (like myself) have to study hard. Sort of like special children who learn to read very early in life and can memorize long poems and other texts.

But as you state that you are sure of Mozart's "capacity for creation that transcended music," and that from birth (or at least by four years old) he chose to use it for music instead of something else, I would be very interested in knowing what you base this on.

Michael

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 4/19, 3:41pm)




Post 17

Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 5:17pmSanction this postReply
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Kelly,

Thanks very much. I see myself reflected in your article in the exact reverse way. I was very, very good at mathematics and so I glided into and out of graduate school with plenty of free time on my hands without much difficulty in theoretical mathematics and got two degrees in it which are now useless to me. Because I don't like it. It is dry and doesn't fill my soul or inspire me.

I love literature and history and psychology. But I find them -much- harder than math, which no matter how advanced I always understood on a first fast reading of the chapter. But in the humanities it's read, underline, think about, write an outline, think about some more. Maybe reread. Literature for a long time was the hardest of all for me, the very thing you find so smooth and easy. Sometimes I miss the subtleties.

Phil



Post 18

Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 5:54pmSanction this postReply
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as for the Ayn Rand quote, she is clearly wrong.
First-handedness of the best kind! 

Kelly, I would not change a word of your post # 12.  Clear, sharp, and insightful.  Bravo!

Jason

(Edited by Jason Dixon on 4/19, 5:55pm)




Post 19

Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 5:59pmSanction this postReply
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I agree Jason. Very few people have the sense of self to state it as Kelly did. Well done the whole thing.

John



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