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Post 80

Friday, June 9, 2006 - 1:01pmSanction this postReply
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Joel, but isn't it also true that the number 2 stands for something (ie. protons), and isn't it true that the first electron orbit shell contains 2 electrons, and isn't it true that that precludes the chemical combination of helium with other chemicals, and isn't it true that ...

I could go on, but my point's been made (definitions are made up of actual knowledge). And, if you become aware of how the definition of helium fits into reality -- then you are aware of a great many things. This new awareness -- is an accrual of knowledge.

So there.

Ed




Post 81

Friday, June 9, 2006 - 2:00pmSanction this postReply
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Cal, one of the numbers below refers to pi. Can you discern which one it is?

3.1415926 ...

3.1428571 ...


Sure. And your point is?





Post 82

Friday, June 9, 2006 - 2:19pmSanction this postReply
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Dean:
Lets say that you want to know the ratio of one circle's circumference to another one's, exactly, and you know both of the circles' radii. How would you do it without pi?
Just by dividing the radii. All circles are similar, so you don't need the value of pi.




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Post 83

Friday, June 9, 2006 - 2:50pmSanction this postReply
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Cal wrote:

This is just the definition of pi; how much 'genuine knowledge' is there in a definition?


If there is no genuine knowledge to a definition, by what standard of communication are you using right now? Are your words just a string of meaningless, arbitrary sounds?

Your statement seems to fall under the fallacy of a stolen concept or the fallacy of self exclusion.

You say there is no genuine knowledge in a definition to a word, so therefore the words you are using to state, "there is no genuine knowledge in a definition to a word", presupposes the words you are using, have no definition to them that can be accepted as genuine knowledge. I can only conclude then your statement has been derived without genuine knowledge, and since it is devoid of this knowledge, it can't be accepted as something knowledgeable or known to be true. Since there is no genuine knowledge to your words, your statement should therefore be rejected.
(Edited by John Armaos
on 6/09, 3:16pm)




Post 84

Friday, June 9, 2006 - 3:27pmSanction this postReply
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Cal wrote:

Just by dividing the radii. All circles are similar, so you don't need the value of pi.


Yes but how do you know all circles are similar? I think that's what Dean was trying to say about Pi. Pi is the same number used for all circles, if you know the circumfrence of a circle is always its diameter times Pi, we know therefore all circles are similar. Knowing this allows us to say all circles are similar. Otherwise, how do you know all circles are similar?



Post 85

Friday, June 9, 2006 - 4:19pmSanction this postReply
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how do you know all circles are similar?
By sight - just look at it, and ye can see the similarity..;-)




Post 86

Friday, June 9, 2006 - 4:22pmSanction this postReply
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John:
You say there is no genuine knowledge in a definition to a word, so therefore the words you are using to state, "there is no genuine knowledge in a definition to a word", presupposes the words you are using, have no definition to them that can be accepted as genuine knowledge.
Where do I say that there is no genuine knowledge in a definition? I only asked: "how much 'genuine knowledge' is there in a definition?" Of course a definition is based on existing knowledge, but does it generate in itself any new knowledge? Now if we can show that the number that we define as the ratio circumference to the diameter of a circle can be expressed as a certain power series we have really gained knowledge. Although that series is in fact already implied in the definition, this is not obvious, so we don't know it automatically from the definition alone.



Post 87

Friday, June 9, 2006 - 4:32pmSanction this postReply
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Yes but how do you know all circles are similar? I think that's what Dean was trying to say about Pi. Pi is the same number used for all circles, if you know the circumfrence of a circle is always its diameter times Pi, we know therefore all circles are similar. Knowing this allows us to say all circles are similar. Otherwise, how do you know all circles are similar?
That follows from the axioms and definitions of geometry. You don't prove similarity with pi, it's the other way around: from the similarity of all circles we know that the ratio circumference to diameter of all circles is the same and therefore a fixed number; that number we call pi. If all circles were not similar, pi wouldn't be a fixed constant. Trying to prove similarity by using pi would be begging the question.



Post 88

Friday, June 9, 2006 - 4:46pmSanction this postReply
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Where do I say that there is no genuine knowledge in a definition? I only asked: "how much 'genuine knowledge' is there in a definition?"


Well Cal then I don't understand your question. Why would you ask that question unless you had some doubt to its answer? Or was it rhetorical? Another words you do think there is genuine knowledge to a definition? I didn't think your question was rhetorical, therefore I inferred your question to mean you thought there was no genuine knowledge to a definition. I don't know why you would be surprised I would infer that since it's obvious you implied it by asking that question.

Now if we can show that the number that we define as the ratio circumference to the diameter of a circle can be expressed as a certain power series we have really gained knowledge


I'm sorry, I thought that would be the definition of Pi then. What am I missing here? Why wouldn't you characterize that as genuine knowledge found in a definition of Pi?

Although that series is in fact already implied in the definition, this is not obvious, so we don't know it automatically from the definition alone.


So I was right in my initial inference. You don't believe there is genuine knowledge to a definition. Any further explanation of the definition would just be giving more defining qualities to the word, it would still in itself be a definition. It would be an extended definition, a definition that is more thorough than the first.



Post 89

Friday, June 9, 2006 - 5:00pmSanction this postReply
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That follows from the axioms and definitions of geometry. You don't prove similarity with pi, it's the other way around: from the similarity of all circles we know that the ratio circumference to diameter of all circles is the same and therefore a fixed number; that number we call pi. If all circles were not similar, pi wouldn't be a fixed constant. Trying to prove similarity by using pi would be begging the question.


Well at the risk of sounding too pedantic, all circles, by the definition of a circle, must be similar. How we define a circle is how we define the relationship between geometric qualities in that shape. So I would interpret that to mean we have come up with the concept of a geometric shape called "circle" to mean it has a diameter, and who's circumference is determined by multiplying it by Pi. You say if all circles were not similar, that Pi would no longer be a fixed constant, but that would mean we have changed the definition of circle. Otherwise you would be probably be speaking of an oval, or some other shape such as a rhombus or rectangle. All geometric shapes have qualities to them that give them their definition.

A square is defined as a parallelogram, with 4 equal sides, with 4 90 degree angles. We can expound on that further to explain what we mean by sides and what we mean by angles and what we mean by parallelogram, but in all of those instances, we are required to use a definition as part of that explanation. We can keep defining words until we strip them down to some a priori knowledge. Ultimately, all language is comprised of words that have a definition to them, that gives them some coherent meaning to them when two people converse with each other.



Post 90

Friday, June 9, 2006 - 7:01pmSanction this postReply
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Cal,

Earlier you had written:

===============
This is just the definition of pi; how much 'genuine knowledge' is there in a definition?
===============

But -- 'using' this definition, you can become aware of some of the contrast in the world (you can gain knowledge, from use of the definition). In particular, you can (in principle) become aware of the distinction of pi from literally ever other number imaginable.

Definitions are cool. They are contextually-absolute factual statements about relations of things in the world.

Ed




Post 91

Friday, June 9, 2006 - 7:48pmSanction this postReply
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We can keep defining words until we strip them down to some a priori knowledge.
What the is an "a priori knowledge"? No such thing... unless you mean the practically random connections and weights between an infant's neurons. I think what you really mean is that the words can only be stripped down so far before you actually have to provide examples in reality of what they refer to before you can teach someone the meaning.

For example, to provide the meaning of "angle", you would say something like "a measure of the degree of rotation". Well, what is rotation? To move, yet to not change in distance from an axis. What is an axis? Its a strait line about which an object can rotate. What is to move? To change in position.

What is position? (core question, cannot be answered without referring to examples in reality)
What is to change? What is to be different? (core question, cannot be answered without referring to examples in reality)

What is a strait line? Connect two positions with the shortest path between them. What is a path? A continuous set of positions that lead from one point to another.

What is length? (core question, cannot be answered without referring to examples in reality)

What is continuous? lacking gaps
What is a gap? Space between points. (core question, cannot be answered without referring to examples in reality)

What is a measure? A comparison to a unit.
What is a unit? (core question, cannot be answered without referring to examples in reality)
What is a comparison? a summary of similarities and differences
What is a similarity? (core question, cannot be answered without referring to examples in reality)
What is a difference? (core question, cannot be answered without referring to examples in reality)

That was fun. Its sweet to have words that are direct distinct references to parts of reality... and then words that refer to relationships between those things... and then suddenly I am able to store and communicate information by using the references (words) instead of drawing a circle every time I want to say that my car's wheels are circular.



Post 92

Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 7:14amSanction this postReply
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What the is an "a priori knowledge"? No such thing..



Dean, I think I'm probably using the term a priori to mean axiomatic. Perhaps I am using that term incorrectly but what I mean to say is that eventually, there are axioms that precede all other definitions within reality.
(Edited by John Armaos
on 6/10, 7:16am)




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Post 93

Monday, June 12, 2006 - 7:18amSanction this postReply
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Ed wrote:
I could go on, but my point's been made (definitions are made up of actual knowledge).
"Actual", yes. "Genuine", in the sense of "new", no. See what I wrote in my last post, and you will appreciate what I meant:

"Once you know that a given molecule is helium, if a lab mate tells you that that same given molecule has atomic number 2, he provides you no new "knowledge."

"In the same fashion, if you know what the constant pi is, of course you [already] know its definition."

To me the "genuine" word of Cal's post #73 was interpreted as an equivalent of "new." And Cal used it in that sense (see his clarificating post, #86).

Joel Català


(Edited by Joel Català on 6/12, 7:23am)




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Post 94

Monday, June 12, 2006 - 8:46amSanction this postReply
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I couldn't let this pass. Joel wrote,
Ayn Rand thought she deduced a metaphysical system from the tautological definition "A is A"...
Ayn Rand didn't think she had deduced anything metaphysical from the law of identity, let alone a "metaphysical system," whatever that's supposed to mean. Rand was not a rationalist. What she did was simply identify the fact that existence is identity. If you're going to take pot shots at Rand, at least make an effort to learn something about her philosophy.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer
on 6/12, 11:52am)




Post 95

Monday, June 12, 2006 - 7:01pmSanction this postReply
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Joel,

Our 'bickering' stems from disparate expectations of definitions. You wail and moan about how definitions don't provide new knowledge -- when that is not the purpose of definitions in the first place.

The purpose of a definition is to differentiate (knowledge of) an existent from all others.

In this respect then, definitions merely help us keep straight that knowledge which we had already gained.

Ed




Post 96

Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 2:43amSanction this postReply
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definitions merely help us keep straight that knowledge which we had already gained.
In this specific point, agreed.

 
Ed
Joel Català

(Edited by Joel Català on 6/13, 3:17am)




Post 97

Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 3:03pmSanction this postReply
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Joel,

Fine then.

Ed
[snubs nose in your general direction]




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