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Friday, August 12, 2005 - 7:03amSanction this postReply
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Sorry your car didn't get fixed. ;-)

I believe your complaint is that 'a man's word is no longer his bond'.  It's true, of course, honor has been replaced by subjectivism.  Surprisingly, much of this is not the fault of tribalists who honor each other to a fault.  It can be more proportionately laid at the feet of Libertarians who mistakenly believe that capitalism/objectivism is social Darwinism, that benevolence is altruism and that others are a just the means to our personal ends.




Post 1

Friday, August 12, 2005 - 7:43amSanction this postReply
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Robert Davison, I am always surprised when you take issue with what I post here.  In this case, I agree with what you wrote and I gave it a Big Red Check.  Yes, I could take issue with some of the explicit details, but, broadly, you got it 100% right. 

Just for starters, giving one's word is extremely serious in "tribal" societies. In reading an book not that old for tourists in the Middle East, the warning is that one never says to a market vendor, "I will come back later" as a way of saying "No."  The vendor will take you at your word and expect you back.

I agree, also, that in our ego-centric capitalist society, no "reasonable" person expects you to keep your word contrary to your own interests -- however momentary they may be.  We all know that sooner or later, everyone will say, "Sorry, but I cannot."  Yet, we carry these iron age or bronze age (or stone age) myths of the hero who keeps his word at the cost of his life -- for, what is life without honor?




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Friday, August 12, 2005 - 7:49amSanction this postReply
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Reading Perren's article again, I see that this all comes down to keeping one's word.  The post took the long route to the last three paragraphs.

As for the decay in modern society:
Republic, VIII, 562b-563e.
the father accustoms himself to become like his child and fears his sons, while the son likens himself to his father, and feels neither shame nor fear in front of his parents, so he may be free ; the metic [563a] becomes the equal of a citizen and the citizen of a metic, and similarly with the foreigner.
It indeed so happens, he said.
To these, said I, such trifles do add up: the teacher, in such a case, fears his pupils and fawns upon them, while pupils have in low esteem their teachers as well as their overseers; and, overall, the young copy the elders and contend hotly with them in words and in deeds, while the elders, lowering themselves to the level of the young, sate themselves with pleasantries [563b] and wit, mimicking the young in order not to look unpleasant and despotic.
http://plato-dialogues.org/faq/faq003.htm

On a related theme, I offer this.
Lord Acton once said, "Every institution finally perishes by an excess of its own first principle." (quoted in Lifecraft, by Forest Church, p 70).
http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/16/messages/324.html




Post 3

Friday, August 12, 2005 - 10:27amSanction this postReply
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Hi Jeff,
I like the abstract of this article very much. But I couldn't read through the whole article after the first two paragraph - can not personally relate to the phenomenons you described.

Yes, I also find that it's almost impossible for me to deal with people who are not consistent.
To show integrity in your behavior is to actually pursue those things which you tell yourself you value.
Very well said.

Hong





Post 4

Friday, August 12, 2005 - 12:05pmSanction this postReply
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Amen to all that, Robert.

It's frustrating to see so much more of the "I'm in it for #1" attitude that isn't supported by the right philosophy. They forget about the "so long as it doesn't interfere with the ability of others to do the same" part. And the reason they don't get that is because they can't make the connection that clearing room for others to act equally in their self-interest is in your own self-interest (assuming ethics are in place). The "I'm in in for me and fuck everyone else" stance almost always doesn't act in a person's self-interest. The sad part is that sometimes people get away with it. What goes around does not necessarily come around, just usually.

I think a lot of it has to do with low self-esteem, and, by the same token, pseudo-self-esteem. When the self-work collapses, one of the behaviors is this kind of "entitlement" thing, and I see a lot of it. A lot of people are convinced they are entitled to things that they aren't. I"ve called a few people on that, and they are honestly shocked- it's like they literally never thought of it that way.

I don't understand the entitlement mentality, I've never experienced it, at least as an adult.




Post 5

Friday, August 12, 2005 - 12:15pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

Robert Davison, I am always surprised when you take issue with what I post here.
I am sorry.   I do not single you out, and disagree with Linz that you have no talent for writing.  Writing doesn't spring like Athena from the head of Zeus full grown, it comes from good editing.  Write volumes then delete about 50% of it.





b

 




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Post 6

Friday, August 12, 2005 - 3:06pmSanction this postReply
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Yes, I also find that it's almost impossible for me to deal with people who are not consistent.

LOL. Hong, you mean like starting to read an article, but not finishing it?

I agree with this article. It's not so much a case of sacrificing yourself for someone else by staying consistent, but staying true to your own convictions.

Give people the respect you believe you yourself deserve. Be an individual of integrity. If you can't guarantee something, then don't.

Others must earn your respect, just as you must earn their respect.

Otherwise expect to be screwed by everyone you deal with.




Post 7

Friday, August 12, 2005 - 7:11pmSanction this postReply
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Otherwise expect to be screwed by everyone you deal with.
QED




Post 8

Friday, August 12, 2005 - 7:15pmSanction this postReply
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Rich,

It's frustrating to see so much more of the "I'm in it for #1" attitude that isn't supported by the right philosophy. They forget about the "so long as it doesn't interfere with the ability of others to do the same" part. And the reason they don't get that is because they can't make the connection that clearing room for others to act equally in their self-interest is in your own self-interest (assuming ethics are in place). The "I'm in in for me and fuck everyone else" stance almost always doesn't act in a person's self-interest
That pretty much nails it..




Post 9

Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 11:20amSanction this postReply
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Robert-

You know what I mean about this "entitlement" attitude being more in the forefront? I mean, this is in-your-face Rand 101. It's always been there, but now it is a fucking daily serious business problem, on top of everything else. Rand 101, I'm telling you...Atlas 101.




Post 10

Monday, August 15, 2005 - 11:11pmSanction this postReply
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Jeff,

Very good observations. I have been away from the USA for 32 years and, on coming back, I encountered the flaws you wrote about. I thought that they must have been just as present before I left, only that I wasn't too aware of them back then. Now I see that others have noticed also.

Due to circumstances beyond my control, I have had to break my word a couple of times recently, but I still honor it as a value and do what I can to make amends when I cannot keep it (and to hell with any guilt feelings).

I still find much in the American character to admire. Envy has not become a way of life here, for instance, like it is in other cultures.

Nevertheless, one of the proper functions of an intellectual is to call people to task for spiritual shortcomings like you did. Good job.

Michael




Post 11

Sunday, December 30, 2007 - 1:52pmSanction this postReply
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O tempora, o mores!

It's a commonplace that people observe that the morals were better in past generations. This was noted in Greece and Rome and it is noted today. Of course, today it may be true.

As a child I remember hearing two phrases constantly used: "sticks and stones may break my bones..." and "it's a free country." The later seems to have been forgotten entirely, and the former has a new ending "...but words can always hurt me, and put you in legal jeopardy, and get me a big cash settlement."

I think Jeff's observation on education is quite correct. Those who can't speak coherently are unlikely to reason coherently. But I find that the culture of exhibition that seems to have been born in the 60's, waned a bit, and then come back with a vengeance in the 1990's with Jerry Springer and now "reality" shows demonstrates that whether or not the common man of the 1950's was any more or less moral in private, he didn't consider it a matter of pride to flaunt his shame in public. JFK is supposed to have done what Bill Clinton certainly did. JFK's cabinet did not parade on TV and swear to the man's veracity. I do believe JFK's cabinet would most likely have resigned. Bill Clinton seems to have chosen a cabinet partially on the assumption that the kind of people he was choosing would not do do.

I never eat lunch in the break-room at my job. The TV is invariably set to Tyra Banks or Judge Who's-it, and the topic is "who is cheating on whom, with a lesbian" and "who is whose babies' father with a lesbian." My coworkers, to a one, including the nominal Christians who declare such shows disgusting, describe them nonetheless as "but still fun to watch."

Ted Keer





Post 12

Sunday, December 30, 2007 - 4:16pmSanction this postReply
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Gresham's Law applied to culture: debase the value of your social coinage and you'll end by being unable to afford the finer things of life.

Or, quod licit bovi non-licit jovi.



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