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Friday, September 9, 2005 - 5:41amSanction this postReply
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This is a cautionary tale Luke. Thank you for writing it. There are vampires out there, (financial, emotional, spiritual) who take no responsibility for themselves and will literally suck you dry. That experience could have turned ugly for you and your wife. Benevolence is not an open ended credit card and seeing the red flags in others behavior is an acquired skill.

regards
John



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Post 1

Friday, September 9, 2005 - 8:15amSanction this postReply
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Luke,
You say, "...What he needed was not a nurturing mentor, but a drill sergeant..."
My impression is that he needs serious psychiatric attention. With the right medication, he may be a lot better, but without it, he obviously can't function in the real world.





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Post 2

Friday, September 9, 2005 - 8:33amSanction this postReply
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Oh, he'll function, all right. As long as people give him a pass and don't hold him personally responsible for his own conduct. His mother SHOULD abandon him. But co-dependants are out there, all over the place.

Chilling story, Luke.



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Post 3

Friday, September 9, 2005 - 8:43amSanction this postReply
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Ah, yes, the dysfunctional grifters of the world, and their progeny. How I could go on. I used to find comfort in the quote by Henry Kissinger- "Trust, but verify."
But that didn't comfort me for too long, although it can be a good practice.

You probably weren't used to encountering that kind of thing too often. And, you are an honorable man, so you work based on trust.

The psychology was too in place for one thing. When you hear "mentor," it often really means things like people needing someone else to be codependent upon.
In that case, it seemed to be a uniform way of thinking in their family, which is not unusual. It's all very sad. You have to wonder. Somehow, he got himself to the point of wanting to do something with Objectivism. And, the family probably had a piece of them that was hoping a true "mentor" could help them "fix" things.
Mentors, however, have the challenge (at least according to the general philosophy that most people on this forum adhere to) of teaching self-responsibility. Taking responsibility. That is the piece of Objectivism that Branden amplified and developed. The psychological piece of it. It is too much for some people, sometimes- when how you are helping them is by telling them they have to help themselves. That is the teaching.

On the other hand, they could have been up for a conscious grift.

My take on it is that they were not entirely conscious of the grifting behavior that was going on. Conscious grifters tend to be more polished than that.

It is all very sad. I try not to let my experiences like this overly affect how I assess each person, each situation. Fools rush in.

Don't let it spoil the next benevolent thing you do, Luke. The reason we do benevolent things is to act in our own self-interest. That is what we are doing- our true values show as the objects of our actions.




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Post 4

Friday, September 9, 2005 - 9:32amSanction this postReply
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Luuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuke.... [sorry - I just had to add that]  "But you are his mentor! You don't understand! I am afraid of my son! He says all these crazy things about killing people and taking guns and blowing people away! My husband says he will divorce me if I bail him out! That poor girl, he put her in the hospital! I don't know what's wrong with him! He rode his bicycle for thirty minutes to get there and he nearly beat her to death! He broke every single thing in his apartment and do you know, like a stupid person, I cleaned all that up?! I don't know why he is so angry. He goes to a psychologist every week and he never talks about why he is so angry. All he talks about is his atheism and Ayn Rand ... and you! Why is he like this? You don't have any children! You don't know what it's like! He is my son! My only child! He is my blood! He is my blooooooooooood! Why would he beat this girl for getting government checks? He knows I pay for his support with checks from the government!"
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This story is a great illustration of the sanction of the victim as well as someone twisting Objectivism to fuel their hate and belligerent lack of empathy.  I hate to say it, but I think the co-dependent mother clearly needs to check her premises as well.   I hope that he has had some success with his therapy as he is clearly sick as well as dangerous to himself and others.   I sure hope he has stopped calling himself and Objectivist also.  The nutters give us all a bad name.

This was certainly an extreme situation.  Mentoring relationships do not generally go this badly, and I hope that Luke's adventure does not discourage anyone from getting involved with others in a cause they feel passionately about.  There is no need to turn your back when someone asks for help, just watch your back.   It can be a very rewarding experience to watch the transformation and growth in another.  That is part of the reason some of us become parents or do volunteer work.  It feels good.... usually. 

Great story, Luke.   Please keep Merritt Island clear of the crazies.     ;-)


 





Post 5

Friday, September 9, 2005 - 9:41amSanction this postReply
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Luke,

You did the right thing.  Clearly, this young man looked up to you as a moral compass of sorts, even though he failed miserably to follow your advice.  I get the sense that this guy was deeply aware of his moral shortcomings, but in dealing with someone like you he was able to feel (at least partially) "good".  You seemed to be a crutch for him during his most intense moments of self-doubt - I wonder if he sincerely did value and appreciate your efforts, or if he was just knowingly using you the way he used his Mother and others... 




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Post 6

Friday, September 9, 2005 - 9:47amSanction this postReply
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Interesting article, Luke.

I think this is more than a nitpick.  In Objectivist terms, I would say you were exercising charity, not benevolence, towards Gregorio.  Because of my Catholic upbringing, in which the meta-virtue of charity subsumes goodwill, I conflated the two for long time.  But I now see the distinction between the two.  Charity is material assistance (including time expended as a mentor), whereas benevolence is goodwill (a rational benefit of the doubt).  I say this because charity can be given without benevolence, and benevolence can be offered with full anticipation of receiving material value as a result.

Nevertheless, you gave us an excellent cautionary tale.

Andy




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Post 7

Friday, September 9, 2005 - 10:01amSanction this postReply
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Andy, in retrospect, I think you are right, at least to a point.  If Gregorio had actually followed my advice and grown as a person, I would have enjoyed the sense of effective nurturing that Kat described.  But that payoff never came.

I should mention that before this fiasco, I and some others in our group did offer some mentoring, mostly via e-mail, to a local high school girl for a project she did on Ayn Rand.  I saw her final presentation and she did an outstanding job.  I felt a certain level of pride in making a positive difference that way.  Unfortunately, that experience did not get repeated with Gregorio.




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Post 8

Friday, September 9, 2005 - 9:17amSanction this postReply
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Dear Luke don't feel sorry about what happened.
Your benevolence was dictate only from the fact that you could not see a young person's life being wasted like that.
You wanted to save a life, something that all we objectivists value the most.
Ciao. 

(Edited by Ciro D'Agostino on 9/09, 10:31am)




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Post 9

Friday, September 9, 2005 - 11:10amSanction this postReply
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Luke,
I saw her final presentation and she did an outstanding job.  I felt a certain level of pride in making a positive difference that way.
That's a great example of how Objectivism is not the philosophy of lone wolves and cannibals.

Andy




Post 10

Friday, September 9, 2005 - 11:36amSanction this postReply
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Luke, going through smaller but much less intense experiences like those as you led me to define my own attitude on the issue;

I am more than happy to help someone become a better person and I can be very forgiving, as long as it is not detrimental to me to be
so.  But I am extremely intollerant of poor actions and in no way will help someone continue to be a bad person or become an even worse person.

Michael




Post 11

Friday, September 9, 2005 - 12:33pmSanction this postReply
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I enjoyed your post, Kat.

So, Luke- I'm thinking what we need to do is just get your little club tied up to the right websites. Now that you've broken your cherry, and such? :)

Do you have any preferences? I'm thinking Fundamentalist Skinheads. They like male role models. A lot.

You need a permanent location, though. Something secure. Something with...a cellar...

Best Regards,
Rich Engle
I'm an Idea Man

(Edited by Rich Engle on 9/09, 12:34pm)

(Edited by Rich Engle on 9/09, 12:35pm)




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Post 12

Friday, September 9, 2005 - 1:03pmSanction this postReply
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Luke,

Good article and I hope it prompts some good debate.

I am extremely hesitant to call the mentoring experience "charity" or "benevolence." It can be very selfish. There is a pleasure from it that is very real. Branden called it the principle of psychological visibility, if I'm not mistaken (Muttnik principle). I call it the pleasure of the farmer.

Many times a farmer will grow a plant or animal that has no monetary value or practical value like food or clothing whatsoever. He just likes watching the thing grow and become what it becomes. He helps it become the best "it" that it possibly can become.

The pleasure experienced, as Branden properly noted, was the experience of seeing another living being flourish according to its nature. If it can flourish to a high degree, so can we. The pleasure of watching a young mind grow is very similar.

Ayn Rand herself certainly gave enough of her own time to young minds. I believe that she also valued this pleasure of the farmer.

As do you.

And I.

(Remember the Wet Nurse? Rearden's love for him at the end was neither charity nor benevolence - it was so much more and it was very selfish.)

Do not let the crazy fucks in the world who pop up and stick to you like glue destroy that pleasure.

There even might be an article in how to nurture it and filter out the crazies. (You ought to see the pieces of work who sometimes come at you when you live in the public eye in music, even classical music, but then in pop it gets worse.)

Michael



Post 13

Friday, September 9, 2005 - 1:15pmSanction this postReply
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Thank God I got out of the business end of the music business. Whew.

Over here in East Cleveland we deal with people wanting things from us all the time. My boss is known as The King of Credit- he's built his business helping out people on all different levels. Talk about watching someone stretch their benevolence. Sometimes it involves artillery... :)

Helping people is a thing that you can grow from, especially after you've done a lot of other things in life. Charity begins at home, of course, but if you have reasonable bandwidth, it's a great thing to do from the selfish side. There are things in that that you will not be able to find anywhere else. And maybe you even leave the world a little better place.




Post 14

Friday, September 9, 2005 - 2:16pmSanction this postReply
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Great story, Luke.  I don't see how you could have handled it any better than you did.

Thanks,
Glenn




Post 15

Friday, September 9, 2005 - 4:25pmSanction this postReply
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"As expected, Gregorio spent the weekend in jail. He had the nerve to relay through his mother a request that I post $100 bail for him."

Wow, only $100.00 bond??  Pretty cheap for a violent assault. Probably got probation at trial too, if there even was a trial. 

Sounds to me like Jeanne was the one in need of mentoring. Ever find out if she was alright?




Post 16

Friday, September 9, 2005 - 5:12pmSanction this postReply
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I ended communications with that entire crowd, Teresa.  I hope things worked out well for Jeanne.  I barely knew her but she seemed basically harmless.  Sadly, she had the disheartening experience of being adopted twice.  Her first set of adoptive parents literally returned her and the second set was ready to boot her from the house because she was about to graduate from high school and had no job prospects.  Hence, she applied for disability benefits because of her cerebral palsy.

At least, that was Gregorio's version of the story.

It was unfortunate that none of the people I encountered who were intimate with Gregorio -- himself, his parents or his girlfriend -- had enough elemental equivalents of the Objectivist ethics to call him on his nonsense and make him pay the price at a much younger age.  I am thinking here of the Protestant work ethic, a common tradition in the American south and one on which I was raised.  I guess I could see enough elements in him of how I might have become -- without firm, productive parental guidance -- to lead me to feel a sense of empathy with his apparent plight.  Shame on me for not seeing and calling him on his nonsense from the start.  Now I know better.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 9/10, 3:52am)




Post 17

Friday, September 9, 2005 - 8:54pmSanction this postReply
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Great story. It's a powerful lesson to us all.



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Post 18

Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 5:52amSanction this postReply
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Yes. I hate the "I-just-couldn't-help-it" types



Post 19

Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 6:43amSanction this postReply
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Neha,

LOLOLOLOL...

Absolutely correct.

How about those who say, "I'm only being sincere, and you deserve sincerity," right before they tell you something like, "I have been sleeping with your worst enemy," or they smack you upside the head with a 2x4 and try to wipe you off the face of the earth?

Some sincerity! I suppose they can't help it.

//;-)

Michael




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