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Post 0

Friday, March 10, 2006 - 7:50amSanction this postReply
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A very good discussion of these ideas can be found in Ought, Reasons, and Morality: The Collected Papers by that late W. D. Falk (Ithaca, NY: Cornell University Press, 1986). Here is a missive fromme, of a while ago, that addresses a related matter and may be of additional help with the topic:

 

Being Helpful isn’t Always Best


 

         Now and then when one shops or patronizes some establishment, one receives favors from clerks or servers and this is usually quite welcome. Indeed, it is often believed that what makes people decent is how willing they are to be benevolent toward others. The late W. D. Falk, a philosophers at the University of North Carolina, wrote about this phenomenon, explaining how it distorts our understanding of what it is to be ethical. Focusing only on the nice things people do for others gives the impression that altruism is the true morality, but this is quite misguided.

 

         Many people who are helpful to others, say, in a store or restaurant, actually are neglecting what they should be doing, namely, work for those who hired them. That is why they were employed, that is the promise they made when they were hired, so to renege on it amounts to breaking one’s word, failing to live up to a promise. Employees are not supposed to be doing kind things for customers over and above acting civilly and being personable, which facilitates business. Professionally they are committed to such conduct for purposes of enhancing the economic well being of those who hired them.

 

         Imagine if when you went to a doctor whose services you pay for (sometimes through insurance but often also up front) he or she didn’t pay attention to you but kept getting on the phone and helping some friend or relative. This would be a serious lapse in the doctor’s professional ethics. Anyone who extends an invitation to people to become his or her clients is, if the invitation is accepted, committed to work for those clients. Being nice to others at these clients’ expense is the farthest thing from being decent and kind. Whatever the motivation, the actual conduct is ethically objectionable.

 

         Also, if one is always being nice to other people while neglecting one’s projects—including attending to the needs of one’s family and friends—this may seem a good thing but it isn’t. Indeed, it may well be done so as to gain brownie points, to “win friends.” But that can take one away from more important but less public tasks. The altruist is doing something nice for someone but often fails to do something nice to those, including himself, he should take care of first. Just like that clerk who gives a customer a special break while failing to work for those who have employed him, the altruist can seem like he is doing such fine things while, when it is all computed, turns out to be hurting those who deserve it least.

 

         Altruism is widely hailed as such a noble ethical stance but this is doubtful. As the poet W. H. Auden once quipped, “We are here on earth to do good for others. What the others are here for, I don't know.” The ethical altruist is in fact part of a daisy chain of self-denial the ultimate goal of which is difficult to fathom—if we all must renounce, what of those whom we serve instead? Do they, too, have to renounce? Who is justified in collecting all the goods given away?

 

         But even more seriously, altruism rests on the dubious idea that by nature we are all cruel and self-indulgent and are naturally self-regarding, so we need to be taught that others matter more than we do. It’s kind of an antidote to natural egotism.  Yet, in fact, most folks are very far from self-regarding and quite often botch up their lives which could use a lot more care than they give it.  Especially since they tend to know a lot more about their own needs and wants, it would be best if all who can would attend to their own interests first.

 
         But because most of us tend to pay attention to other people to the extent that they are benefiting us, we tend to praise this other-directed conduct on their part and forget that there is an entire life for them to attend to which they may not be doing so well. Instead of bending over backwards to be nice to others, we could probably do much better in life by paying more attention to what we need and should want first.




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Post 1

Friday, March 10, 2006 - 8:18amSanction this postReply
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Someone who practices self-sacrifice, like Mother Theresa,  could easily be argued as more immoral.  And so if 'evil' just means the most potent form of immorality, we'd have a huge discrepancy with the traditional view of the term.  Mother Theresa would be more evil than Hitler.
The Witch Doctor is now more evil than the Attila?

Michael




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Post 2

Friday, March 10, 2006 - 9:53amSanction this postReply
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Both are evil due to assuming the right to enforce one's ideals without consequence. Whether it's 'Attila' or his Witchdoctor. Both ultimately assume a magical position of rightness through an incompletely picture of the world, thus their acts are automatically against their best interests, but also that the side-effect, which is more pertanent[sp?], is that it assumes that others must be subject to their ideals no matter how wrong they are in them.

The example of Hitler and Stalin is partially correct, but the real reason why such individuals are deemed evil is because of their assumption to rule over others and that their ways are right no matter how often they are proven wrong. Imagine if these were just men that demanded more pay for less work, or drank to excess and beat their wives, then sobered up to blame their wife or to give power to the spirits they drank the night before? In such cases, it can be easily derived their actions are evil since their ideas or premises concluded that others owe them some mystical intangible pardon to their acts. Hitler used the claim that Jews were the ones corrupting Germany as his mystical pardon. Stalin used the flawed theories of Marx as his. In both cases, they both were implicitly, and even explicitly at certain times, exhorting the world at large for forgiveness and/or sanction for their acts.

As such, they already violated the fundemental maxim of Ethical Egoism: One owes nothing to others and no others owe anything to one.

-- Bridget



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Post 3

Friday, March 10, 2006 - 11:48amSanction this postReply
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Joseph, I would like to touch on the Hitler-Mother Teresa analogy you made in your article; an analogy that could be easily misunderstood or distorted.

 

So, correct me if I am wrong, but from my reading of your article, what you are saying is not that Mother Teresa is more evil than Hitler in every context, but that she may be more evil in the context that; if the standard of value is our own lives, then her actions in regards to her own life - could be evaluated as more self-destructive (immoral/evil) than the life that a despot may have lived. Conversely, you are also saying that although this may be true, Mother Teresa is certainly less evil than Hitler in relation to others, because her self-destructive acts have little to no bearing on the lives of those others, and by logical inference, my own life and values. Therefore, in this context, the context of my own life as the ultimate standard of value, the despot should be properly judged as being a greater evil, by virtue of the far greater threat he poses to my life and values.  

 

Is my assessment of the intent of your analogy, essentially correct?

 

George

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 3/10, 12:17pm)




Post 4

Friday, March 10, 2006 - 12:25pmSanction this postReply
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George, your analysis is exactly right. Since the term 'evil' has multiple meanings, which are quite distinct in Objectivist ethics, you have to be careful to identify exactly what concept you're using.

If I had to choose which use of the term was correct or that Objectivist should push for, I wouldn't be sure. The whole package deal is so confusing, I don't think there is a good answer. We have to be very careful with that term.

Tibor, thanks for the interesting excerpt.

MSK, you're confused again. It has nothing to do with Attila vs. Witch Doctor. I never used the phrases, nor did I imply them. That distinction is irrelevant to this topic.

It might be that Mother Theresa could be classified as a Witch Doctor, but it wasn't what I was referring to. I was only focusing on her self-sacrificing lifestyle. Her reasons for it are not important here. The question is by which standard are you making the judgment.

In fact, your question shows you didn't get a word I was saying. I write an article saying that the term is a package deal of multiple concepts and standards, and you ask a question without qualification.

Imagine I write about selfishness. I say the term means to be self-oriented, but it includes in the package-deal the idea that doing stuff for yourself is necessarily at the cost of other people. Your question is like asking "So are you trying to say that being selfish is okay?". The question ignores that there must be a distinction.

Bridget, don't follow MSK down the path of Attila vs Witch Doctor. It has nothing to do with my article. And as for you discussion of why they're really evil, you'd need to clarify what you mean by the term. My article was about why the term has multiple contradictory meanings.



Post 5

Friday, March 10, 2006 - 12:42pmSanction this postReply
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Joe, the overall thrust of your article, insofar as sensitizing us to the fact that 'evil' is used in two different ways is very helpful. There is an important area where you make a mistake, however:

>the traditional view upholds 'evil' in an others-oriented way. The most potent form of immorality is completely defined by how it affects others. Since Objectivism rejects that others-based standard, it has to reject that conventional view of the term. [Joe]

The dictionary indicates that the word evil is indeed used in two senses: highly morally objectionable behavior & that which causes harm or destruction or misfortune. And that one can call Mother Teresa evil in an 'internal' sense and Hitler evil not only in that sense but in an 'external harm' sense.

But this doesn't make the concept a flawed one or a "package deal". Due to the nature and evolution of language, important words -usually- have multiple senses. So, in asking whether Mother Teresa is more evil than Hitler, you simply have to be aware enough of this to first ask: "in what sense of evil - internal or in terms of external consequences?"

The same consideration applies to Rand's statement that Kant was the most evil man in history. If you go to the dictionary, you can see that she probably meant in the sense of the consequences of his ideas....not necessarily that he was internally blacker than Hitler.

> I don't have a clean solution to this. The term has two different meanings, both of which have emotional appeal. [Joe]

There is no philosophical problem here. You just have to specify the sense you are using. Both senses of the word are valid, objective, rational. They simply refer to different aspects or implications of departing from morality, regardless of whether your code of morality is altruist, egoist, or pragmatist. The common denominator, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, is that the word evil is the 'gold standard', so to speak, of the ultimate in immorality: it "refers to the the most comprehensive...expression of disapproval, dislike or disparagement". -- Online Etymology Dictionary, referring back to the OED.



(Edited by Philip Coates
on 3/10, 1:10pm)




Post 6

Friday, March 10, 2006 - 12:52pmSanction this postReply
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Excuse me for my ignorance, what self-sacrifice act did Mother Terasa practice?
(Edited by Hong Zhang on 3/10, 12:53pm)




Post 7

Friday, March 10, 2006 - 12:53pmSanction this postReply
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> If I had to choose which use of the term was correct or that Objectivist should push for, I wouldn't be sure. [Joe]

When a word has two objective meanings, you can't push for either one. You have to accept and use the English language as it is (unless a term itself is a stolen concept or fallacious in some other way). Otherwise no one will be able to understand you and you won't be able to communicate widely, get published, etc.

Rand's formulation "by selfishness I mean...." or "by capitalism I mean full, unregulated laissez-faire in which all property is privately owned..." is a good, short, economical way to do this in writing and speaking. (Especially since selfishness and capitalism have multiple senses -- including the pejorative and Nietzschean senses of the former and the mixed economy sense of the latter.)

> My article was about why the term has multiple contradictory meanings.

The meanings of the word 'evil' are -not- contradictory, but they are different as I explained in my previous post.



(Edited by Philip Coates
on 3/10, 1:01pm)




Post 8

Friday, March 10, 2006 - 1:17pmSanction this postReply
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Phil,

Since you are propsing this is just a definition thing, can you or anyone give me an example of where someone harms themselves physically, emotionally, or in some way and others would say that self harm was "evil."

Ethan

(Edited by Ethan Dawe on 3/10, 1:18pm)




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Post 9

Friday, March 10, 2006 - 1:17pmSanction this postReply
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But Hitler WAS evil for hurting himself (as well as the others, too). I'm using the correct, agent-based view here.

Hitler's actions were anti-man -- though the linch-pin for his evil was not an isolated action, but his persisting evasion. On this view, Bridgets summary is illuminative ...

"As such, they already violated the fundemental maxim of Ethical Egoism: One owes nothing to others and no others owe anything to one."

Persistently holding the wrong idea that one is owed what one is not -- is evil. In Hitler's case, this would create a perceived deficiency in his world view that would require much action of him -- over-and-above the REAL furtherance of his own life. In choosing to evade reality (all that Aryan crap -- such as setting up 'German' sciences, etc), Hitler precluded himself from enjoying reality as a full human being. He made it impossible for himself to be happy -- ie. for himself to have a full life, well lived.

Being so anti-man and anti-reality -- the persistent evasion -- relegated Hitler to a life primarily motivated by fear (not love). He failed to take note that he was a certain kind of creature (and that others are, too), and that that would mean that his happiness required a certain kind of action.

Mother Teresa is similarly guilty. An empty soul. Ask her what she wanted -- and she'd probably only tell you what OTHER folks wanted. Nothing inside. That is my view of her. Not understanding what it means to be human, she went about acting on her immediate, esthetic desires (to relieve visible suffering). Not willing to ask whether helping others can hurt them (long-range), she set out to erase the immediate, visible discomfort of other folks' life situations.

Pain, pain, pain -- that is all she ever focused on. Life is pain. Human spirits don't rise to meet challenges -- they must be hoisted with the available tithes. There's no value to earning your own self-respect by becoming more efficacious, so it's all right if you treat others as needy infants. Perpetual infants. Like baby chicks crying in a nest -- their mouths open for the worm.

The derangement shared by Hitler and Mother Teresa: Human spirits don't grow (and often in response to suffering). In the one case, that means savage (range-of-the-moment) ethnocentric annihilation -- in the other case, that means savage (range-of-the-moment) 'suffering' eradication. Hitler was motivated by fear, Mother Teresa by suffering -- and neither of these is a correct life motivation for homo sapiens.

The reality: Humans have potential. Humans require attainment of the feeling they're fit for reality. It's inescapable. It has to do with the kind of creature we are. If you help folks too much -- they'll never attain the feeling of being fit for reality (you will condemn them to unhappiness). Getting to a point where you can be correctly motivated (ie. by love), is not merely optional, it's necessary.

This applies to the acting agent, as well as to the 'beneficiaries/victims' of their anti-man actions. There is a quote about not fighting evil by evil means -- because evil means always negatively affect oneself. Altruistic slaughter and altruistic handouts are evil means that corrupt the acting agent's character. They distort a proper view of man.

Evil is the stubborn adoption of improper means and/or motivation.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/10, 1:23pm)

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/10, 1:26pm)




Post 10

Friday, March 10, 2006 - 1:39pmSanction this postReply
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Phil,

You wrote ...
================
When a word has two objective meanings, you can't push for either one. You have to accept and use the English language as it is (unless a term itself is a stolen concept or fallacious in some other way). Otherwise no one will be able to understand you and you won't be able to communicate widely, get published, etc.

Rand's formulation "by selfishness I mean...." or "by capitalism I mean full, unregulated laissez-faire in which all property is privately owned..." is a good, short, economical way to do this in writing and speaking. (Especially since selfishness and capitalism have multiple senses -- including the pejorative and Nietzschean senses of the former and the mixed economy sense of the latter.)
================

Okay, but Rand's examples don't fit this bill. There are not two objective meanings for capitalism, for instance. There is one objective meaning for it -- and several subjective meanings. What is then required, is for you to state that you are using the term (e.g. capitalism) in the objective sense -- as opposed to other senses. To say that capitalism has multiple senses, doesn't mean that it has more than one right sense.

Another way to say it -- is to tell your audience that you're using the term without contradiction or error (ie. noncontradictory integration), including everything that is logically entailed.

Ed




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Post 11

Friday, March 10, 2006 - 1:41pmSanction this postReply
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Hmmmm...

In real life examples, in an article examining the nature of evil, Mother Teresa is not a Witch Doctor preaching self sacrifice on earth and Hitler ain't an Attila thug dominating others by force on earth. They are something else altogether.

An interesting approach, I must admit. Personally, I cannot think of better historical examples of Rand/Branden's archetypes for evil. Then again, I guess I just don't understand things too well...

Michael




Post 12

Friday, March 10, 2006 - 1:58pmSanction this postReply
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> give me an example of where someone harms themselves physically, emotionally, or in some way and others would say that self harm was "evil." [Ethan]

That's an interesting point. I just went thru another bunch of dictionaries and here is a typical example: " Evil [four senses] = 1. morally or spiritually corrupt (sinful, immoral). 2. motivated by intent to harm or destroy (malevolent, malicious, vicious). 3. producing destructive effects (harmful, ruinous, pestilent). 4. characterized by bad acts or harmful effects (malign). "

But in each of senses 2-4 (which are related), the object or subject of the action is external. Those senses don't seem to be used for harm directed at one's self. However, sense 1, which is listed first and is therefore the primary, -is- internal or focused on the effects on oneself.

To directly answer your question, the envious Keating or Toohey-like mediocrity, someone who hates the good for being the good, would be an example of someone evil because of the harm he has caused himself, the shriveling of his own soul, the extreme form of absence of reason and justice.



(Edited by Philip Coates
on 3/10, 2:00pm)




Post 13

Friday, March 10, 2006 - 2:04pmSanction this postReply
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Phil, it's not that the term 'evil' has two distinct meanings and are used in two distinct ways. The problem is that the two meanings are the same under an altruistic morality. They are combined into a single package. You're welcome to use the term evil to describe the 'internal' sense, but I think it's a quick way to cause confusion.

And if you have to define a term every time you use it because the implications are radically different and you can't pick it up from the context, I tend to see that as a problem. Sure you can't overcome it by continuously defining the concept, but that negates the whole point of having a word for it.

Ed, let's be totally clear here. It's true that both Hitler and Mother Theresa were immoral from an egoistic point of view. But when people talk about Hitler being evil, they're not referring to the fact that he didn't practice eudaimonia. They're point out that he was a genocidal monster. It's true that his being a genocidal monster prevented him from living the good life, but that's not the focus. People aren't upset that he chose to live a non-ideal life.

Your use of the term "evil" might be correct because it's agent-based and from an egoistic standard. But it leaves the other half wide open. There is certainly a moral judgment we can make about the fact that Hitler was a mass murderer and dangerous to the lives of everyone else. Conventionally, 'evil' would describe it. And really, that's why the term has such powerful connotations. Using evil to describe a jobless uncle who mooches off the rest of the family cheapens the currency.

MSK, for once I agree with you. You don't understand things too well. For instance, you don't understand that these two examples embody a very different distinction Rand discussed-- people who think you have to sacrifice yourself to others, and people who think you have to sacrifice others to yourself. But I guess reading the article and understand the point is too much to expect.

Phil, just saw your last post. I think your wrong. While you can argue that the first definition is "internal", it's only focusing on whether a person has an immoral character. To know that, you'd have to have a moral standard, which is traditionally altruism. It's not saying anything about being destructive to your own life...that's you reading it from an Objectivist point of view. So it's not "internal" in the sense that you were using the term before, meaning judged on the standard of how it personally affects that person's life.




Post 14

Friday, March 10, 2006 - 2:44pmSanction this postReply
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Okay, Joe. You make a good point. I'm trying to undercut the package deal by premature exactification. But wasn't it you who wrote an essay on degrees of evil? So when you say ...

"Using evil to describe a jobless uncle who mooches off the rest of the family cheapens the currency."

I'd retort that that is merely a smaller degree of evil.

One standard to use (for measuring evil) is a utilitarian standard of the total amount of suffering caused. As a shameless rationalist-enthusiast, I don't like that standard. And after your critical (rationally-discriminatory) response to my first effort, I'll have to go back to the drawing board again, to see if I can come up with a viable standard ...

Ed





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Post 15

Friday, March 10, 2006 - 2:55pmSanction this postReply
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I was afraid of that. This article seems to say that implementing self-sacrifice is more evil than sacrificing others to yourself.

Gosh darn it. I always thought that both were equally evil on a philosophical level because they undermined rationality.

Guess I'll just have to bone up on Objectivism.

Michael




Post 16

Friday, March 10, 2006 - 8:27pmSanction this postReply
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> the first definition [of evil] is "internal", it's only focusing on whether a person has an immoral character...it's not saying anything about being destructive to your own life...that's you reading it from an Objectivist point of view [Joe]

Think of the person who is promiscuous, lazy, envious of those who work hard. That would be someone with an immoral character. If it's extreme enough or fundamentally destructive enough, both a bible-pounding preacher and an Objectivist would call him evil. Even if his evil is essentially internal and the person he is hurting is himself.

> if you have to define a term every time you use it because the implications are radically different and you can't pick it up from the context, I tend to see that as a problem.

Who said that? That's a straw man. Of course you normally get it from the context!

> the two meanings are the same under an altruistic morality. They are combined into a single package.

As far as it being a concept tied into or corrupted by altruism, that is simply not the way I have heard the word used my whole life: 'evil' is a concept which applies to the moral extreme, the nadir of **whichever moral code you accept**. Obviously you will -apply- the concept differently depending if you are an Objectivist. That's true of all kinds of value-laden or normative terms: Objectivists apply them differently. But the concept itself is objective. I looked up the word and took the trouble to insert it in my post 12 to avoid exactly this kind of pointless argument. But certainly you should go consult the dictionary (more than one, please!) if you have any doubts that 'evil' as a concept is:

(a) not contradictory or corrupt, but is a crucial concept needed in -any- code of ethics,

(b) not allied to and does not smuggle in altruism.




(Edited by Philip Coates
on 3/10, 8:35pm)




Post 17

Friday, March 10, 2006 - 8:34pmSanction this postReply
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Mother Teresa has the choice to live her own life or not.  If she chooses to not live it, she is not immoral.  Her choice has nothing then to do with morality.  But she did choose to live it, sort of.  From her viewpoint, she has simply made an investment of giving up life on earth for the far greater reward of heaven.  She sees life as a combination of life on earth and life in heaven.  In a way, she is trying to maximize and fully live her total life.  Or, in a way, she has chosen not live life on earth, in order to live life in heaven.  She has the right to do this.  She is mistaken in believing this earth/heaven combination is life, but the consequences of this mistake are primarily visited upon her.  By our philosophy she is immoral.  Of course, we are going to assess how moral she is by our own ethics.  We could even then say that she is evil, as in meaning very immoral.  Compared to most people's commitment to a dualistic earth/heaven life, hers is greater and so the consequences of her mistake on her life are greater.  But, she does essentially take the consequences of her mistake only upon her own head.  She may act to try to make others feel guilty about not so greatly sacrificing their lives on earth as she has, but for them to feel that guilt they also have to have irrational ideas of life.  They are not forced to share her immorality and they are not forced to bear its consequences.

Adolf Hitler, Joe Stalin, and Mao were every bit as immoral in their personal goals, but they did not give many others any choice about whether their lives were to be turned into the means by which this trio attained power and their self-glorification.  They did not hesitate a bit to smash the lives of many others, including those who knew how and wanted to live their own lives in a much more moral way.

Maybe it is worthwhile to note this difference in the nature and kind of immorality of Mother Teresa and Hitler by saying Mother Teresa is immoral and Hitler is evil.  It would be objectively useful to be able to separate the kind of immorality in which someone limits the consequences to their own life, which they are not even required to live, and those who visit great harm on others by the use of force.




Post 18

Friday, March 10, 2006 - 8:51pmSanction this postReply
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> saying Mother Teresa is immoral and Hitler is evil. [Charles]

The common denominator is that evil is the most total departure from morality. Massive externally directed destruction and depravity would fit the bill. But so would internal depravity, destruction, massive departure from morality. We can debate whether Mother Teresa fits the bill in the latter case --- I don't know enough about her, but it's possible for someone to want to help the poor because they gain egoistic satisfaction from a 'helping' career like being an aid or relief worker or feeding the starving or providing aid after a hurricane. But how we would describe MT morally shouldn't determine our use of the concept.

> It would be objectively useful to be able to separate the kind of immorality in which someone limits the consequences to their own life, which they are not even required to live, and those who visit great harm on others by the use of force.

We do that by adding another word or phrase as a modifier or qualifier: Self-directed evil. Massive self-destructiveness. Or whatever applies. You can't pack every moral aspect or qualification into just one word.



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Post 19

Friday, March 10, 2006 - 7:02pmSanction this postReply
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Some years ago, I heard a radio interview of Mother Teresa. It was shortly after
she received the Nobel prize. The interviewer began with the usual effusive
praise of her "selfless sacrifice", but Mother Teresa then stopped the
interviewer with a correction, "No, that is not right. I haven't sacrificed
anything. I do what I do because it's what I want to do." I was astounded to
hear this from the Queen of Altruism. The rest of the interview was a
forgettable recounting of her accomplishments, but I never forgot her statement.
It seems that Mother Teresa herself was possibly more interesting than her
public image.



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