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Post 40

Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 7:45pmSanction this postReply
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Mother Teresa clearly preached a vile and toxic philosophy. However, she did not kill people; she did not enslave millions; she did not run gas ovens for ethnic cleansing.

In other words, repugnant as she was, she was not Adolph Hitler, or Saddam Hussein, or Ted Bundy.

That said, I would like to pose a question to those who would equate holding or preaching irrational ideas, with engaging in real-world acts of butchery and destruction:

By what means can we even determine that evasion or "irrational ideas" are evil, if not from their real-world destructive consequences?

In other words, are destructive acts evil because they are rooted in evasion and bad ideas?

Or are evasion and bad ideas evil because they cause destruction?

Put another way: Is evasion bad because it violates the virtue of rationality? Or is it bad because it undermines the value of life?

Then what actually and primarily defines "evil": that "evasion" which we do within the privacy of our skulls, or that destruction which we carry out in the world?

And as a corollary, who is the most evil: he who accepts bad ideas and who evades facts -- or he who acts on bad ideas or evasion, and directly, willfully causes harm and destruction?

Kant or Hitler? Mother Teresa or Ted Bundy?

Think about it.



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Post 41

Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 7:55pmSanction this postReply
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Robert, I see what you are getting at, but I hold that people like Theresa, as Luke stated, are like "Tooheys". They don't initiate force, they are more insidious. They destroy the mind. They are the comprachicos. Don't forget, they start with the children. The Jesuits get em when they're young; those first seven years are crucial to ruining a mind.

And it's easy to be deceived by the surface appearance of the "sweet little nun"...ever see Mother Angelica on TV? Cute old lady, so sweet and lovable...how could anyone not like her? The kindly priest, friend of the alter boys...so peaceful, so serene...so how do they promote such vile ideas if they are not initiating force?

Mrs. Lovejoy: "I don't judge you, Marge. That's for an angry God to decide."

They scare the populace and fill their heads with notions of hellfire and brimstone. Eternal Damnation. Crusades. Etc. Bombing abortion clinics. Killing fags. "Oh, but we didn't mean it!" Yeah, heard that one before.





Post 42

Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 8:04pmSanction this postReply
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"We need to find God, and he cannot be found in noise and restlessness. God is the friend of silence. See how nature - trees, flowers, grass- grows in silence; see the stars, the moon and the sun, how they move in silence... We need silence to be able to touch souls. "
Mother Teresa


This, fittingly, was just posted at SOLO PASSION:
http://www.solopassion.com/node/621#new

Apparently, the church is not content to not use force, they are getting in bed with the government to "save the planet" ecologically. The only thing holding back people like Mother Theresa was the seperation of Church and state.

"Evangelical leaders have called on the United States to step up its efforts to control greenhouse-gas emissions. But can they force action where others have failed, asks Amanda Haag.
Fire and brimstone are coming to the aid of US science, as evangelical scientists and their allies in the religious community embark on a battle against climate change.
"The time has come...for destroying those who destroy the Earth," says Calvin DeWitt, a professor of environmental studies at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, quoting from the Scriptures. The Bible teaches stewardship of the planet, he says, which is partly why 86 prominent US evangelical Christians last month signed the 'Evangelical Climate Initiative' calling for mandatory limits on greenhouse-gas emissions."






Post 43

Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 8:08pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,
Those are excellent questions. They cut through to the bottom of the matter.  




Post 44

Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 8:08pmSanction this postReply
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Robert, "That said, I would like to pose a question to those who would equate holding or preaching irrational ideas, with engaging in real-world acts of butchery and destruction..."

Robert, who was the greater evil in the Fountainhead, Wynand or Toohey?

"You poor ameteur, you thought you wielded power..."



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Post 45

Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 8:14pmSanction this postReply
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Luke wrote:
Assuming the charity actually produces values that affirm life, how could this fall at odds with Objectivism? Technically, ARI and TOC both qualify as such charities even though they aim at encouraging flourishing rather than just alleviating suffering.
Charity is at odds with one's self interest when the charity is in the form of throwing away your own resources instead of using the resources to encourage flourishing. This is especially self destructive when you give charity to beggars who produce no value in any form to you, or when you give charity to looters. You don't have unlimited resources... you should donate your resources with justice, promoting individuals to be productive.



Post 46

Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 8:23pmSanction this postReply
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Well said, Dean. Incidentally, Suze Orman said the same thing on her show tonight. She often gives advice to people who are helping out others when they can't even pay their own credit card bills. She even went so far as to chastise the caller for having so poor a self-worth that she would throw away her money to be viewed better in the eyes of the one receiving the help...



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Post 47

Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 9:00pmSanction this postReply
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> "I should like to metnion a psychological aspect of the motivation of the social workers..a person who chooses social work as a full-time profession chooses to devote her life...to human flaws..to those who lack value" [Jon quoting Rand]

Well, she's just wrong!

As she has been in other cases is when she moves from philosophy where she is right 99.9765% percent of the time to psychology where she is wrong 32.7864% of the time. First, she's psychologizing about the motives of -all- social workers. Second, if devoting one's life to correcting human flaws is a standard by which one measures a corrupt profession, why would not counseling, psychotherapy, and many forms of teaching be corrupt professions as such? Third, why would someone struggling to rise up out of the slums or the gutters or the backwards parts of the world...and *correct* their flaws lack value? SOMETIMES THAT REQUIRES THE GREATEST COURAGE OF ALL.

Think. Don't just quote Rand or assume she was always right.

Phil

[ "Third, you obviously never read what AR wrote on this topic if you're claiming that I'm mistaken and I'm parodying her." On this point, if your quotes from the Letters reflect the context (what she meant by 'social work'), I would have to stand corrected and admit you are right: I have not read the Letters in their entirety! ]



(Edited by Philip Coates
on 3/11, 9:02pm)




Post 48

Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 9:46pmSanction this postReply
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From the "WHAT IS OBJECTIVISM?" page of Solo/ROR:


" [Rand} pointed out the logical absurdity of the traditional ethic of self-sacrifice for the sake of others - if I am here to sacrifice for you, & you are here to sacrifice for me, what good does that do either of us? What is the point? She highlighted its logical/practical effect, all too eloquently exemplified during the twentieth century in which she lived: humanity's being divided up into those who make sacrifices & those who receive them; thence, bloodbaths & concentration camps.

She pointed out the existential monstrosity of an ethic that says we should act from duty & eschew happiness. "The purpose of morality is to teach you, not to suffer & die, but to enjoy yourself & live." With that, she launched a revolution.


Just in case...



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Post 49

Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 10:17pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

I would like to address your question:
... I would like to pose a question to those who would equate holding or preaching irrational ideas, with engaging in real-world acts of butchery and destruction:

By what means can we even determine that evasion or "irrational ideas" are evil, if not from their real-world destructive consequences?
Personally I do not equate holding an irrational idea to be the same as implementing it. That is a subject where David Kelley's work has been extremely beneficial to Objectivism. I am a tolerance advocate along his molds. (This is also a good manner of appealing to the good in people instead of the bad.)

The evasion-only thing is Peikoff's baby, not Rand's. I understand Rand's tirades as being against what I prefer to call an "anti-rational" mentality or philosophy. This is not only evasion the way I have heard it used (as if a person were using his/her rational faculty to avoid thinking about something). This is a fully accepted choice and affirmation that reason is bad. Not just ineffective - bad. Evasion is merely one way of falling into that choice, but some people make it with complete intention to do so. That's a hell of a lot more than evasion. James Taggart evaded. Toohey knew what he was doing.

You don't find that idea full-blown in many people, but it was in place in the lives of Mother Theresa and Hitler. As a doctrine in action, she went one way and Hitler went another. She went the self-sacrifice route and Hitler went the sacrifice others to self route.

In terms of destructive potential, the doctrine on the self-sacrifice side paralyzes genius and the very best in man. It invades souls and shuts them down. You don't see the damage because in order to see it, you would have to see what people who are shut down would do in life to compare it against. It is like cancer. Only when society starts to crumble, like a body does, will it become evident. But self-sacrifice is an evil doctrine. Dirty rotten malignant evil.

The sacrifice others to self side is easier to condemn as a doctrine because in action, you see the gas chambers, the wholesale destruction, etc. They are right in front of you. It is another dirty rotten evil doctrine, but it is usually masked as altruism.

In terms of how this works in action, I am one also who generally places more weight on the things I can see than on what I cannot. Thus the fact that Hitler was a gleeful destructive monster is evident. What he became in life was pure evil in both intent and result. But I do not downplay the toxic effect of Mother Teresa's doctrine. She won a Nobel Prize. Who knows how many people have given up hope of ever becoming anything decent in life because they mirror their highest values in her?

Still, in terms of evil acts, to combat Mother Teresa, the onus actually is on us to provide better ideas and better examples for people to see. To combat Hitler, you need guns. In essence, she only did with her life as she pleased and, frankly, she did good social work in benefit of some people who were destitute. Hitler killed all, rich and poor. There is no comparison between them as people. Hitler was a monster. Mother Teresa is to be pitied, maybe. But, I repeat, the doctrine of sacrifice that both held is pure evil and the destruction is brutal on both ends (one you can see and the other you can't).

Now with that in mind, I have a real problem with the following statement from the article:
... if 'evil' just means the most potent form of immorality... Mother Theresa would be more evil than Hitler.
Most potent form of immorality? Once again I ask, is self-sacrifice a more "potent form of immorality" than sacrificing others to self, which would be a "weaker form of immorality?" Is not the most potent form of immorality a doctrine of anti-reason? Does one form of irrational destruction need to be compared against another like that to make one better than the other? The essential issue is reason and the good/evil effects of reason/anti-reason on human actions, so why factor reason out of the equation? Isn't this Objectivism, the philosophy of reason as the good?

A serious premise needs to be checked here.

Michael




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Post 50

Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 10:24pmSanction this postReply
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Michael: "Most potent form of immorality? Once again I ask, is self-sacrifice a more "potent form of immorality" than sacrificing others to self, which would be a "weaker form of immorality?"

Why is the destruction of one's self less evil than destruction of others? It's actually ironic, in this context, since the church holds suicide to be a sin (unless it's done in the name of God or Allah, of course. Just don't kill yourself for selfish reasons, like to end unbearable suffering.)







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Post 51

Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 10:39pmSanction this postReply
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Joe,
Why is the destruction of one's self less evil than destruction of others?
I hold that it isn't. I hold that both are equally evil as doctrines. But in the action of a single person, one who only sacrifices himself is much, much, much less evil than one who sacrifices others. This holds from every angle I can see. A person is ultimately responsible for his own life, so if he wastes it, it is his to waste. The life of another is not.

Still, the basis of good and evil in Objectivism is reason. (And let's not forget that malignant cancer when the doctrine of self-sacrifice becomes widespread.) Whatever doctrine that holds reason to be bad is evil. And there is no such thing as one form of anti-reason being less immoral than another form of anti-reason.

Michael




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Post 52

Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 10:55pmSanction this postReply
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Michael: " I hold that both are equally evil as doctrines. But in the action of a single person, one who only sacrifices himself is much, much, much less evil than one who sacrifices others. This holds from every angle I can see. A person is ultimately responsible for his own life, so if he wastes it, it is his to waste. The life of another is not."

Fair enough. Still evil. Rungs of hell...though, how many people did Hitler actually kill? He didn't kill with his oratory, did he? He didn't kill by giving commands. He had people following his ideas. People who agreed with his ideas acting on his ideas. Mother Theresa is similar, only her enforcers are not brownshirts but god warriors, and "God", or the fear of God, as her Gestapo.

"Still, the basis of good and evil in Objectivism is reason. (And let's not forget that malignant cancer when the doctrine of self-sacrifice becomes widespread.) Whatever doctrine that holds reason to be bad is evil. And there is no such thing as one form of anti-reason being less immoral than another form of anti-reason."

Is this accurate? I thought that the basis of good and evil was life as the standard of value, and that reason was a means, a tool, to achieve that...







Post 53

Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 11:01pmSanction this postReply
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Incidentally, Suze Orman said the same thing on her show tonight.
I think I said it first to a co-worker or someone on this forum or someone on the street-- last week. How fast do ideas spread?



Post 54

Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 11:04pmSanction this postReply
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It's a money meme!



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Post 55

Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 12:07amSanction this postReply
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Joe,

The way I learned it, life is the ultimate standard of value, yet reason is mans distinguishing characteristic and his means of survival. Whatever undermines reason not only undermines his main tool of survival, it undermines his very nature.

For instance, a fatal accident of nature is not evil, despite killing the person. It is merely an accident and is to be avoided, studied and similar situations controlled in the future. It is a bad thing for human life and it is fatal, but that's all.

I use two basic parameters, since I am one who holds that they both run side-by-side in human life. One is psychological, where the standard is healthy-unhealthy (and morality is merely one consideration among many). The other entails ONLY man's volitional faculty (not his automatic processes). That is where the concepts of good and evil apply - in the exercise of his volition.

That is why reason is the standard of judging evil.

Michael




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Post 56

Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 12:55amSanction this postReply
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Evil, hmmm....

Spiritual evil vs. mass murderers...

Agatha Christie has a mantra: "Don’t open your heart to evil."

Ideas, and in the case of evil ones, come first and set in motion a wake of human suffering and despair in which existence has no value.

The murder of a human soul... Rand, at least it seems to me, cast her vote, artistically and philosophically, that spiritual evil is more significant than the act of killing; see Toohey and The Comprachicos.

Perhaps it would be fun, I mean we have law courts and capital punishments for murderers, to devise some kind living hell, something like an intellectual torture devise that would force the perpetrators that espouse evil to spiritually experience their own prescriptions. I don’t mean things like Luke and Phil’s posts...perhaps it is what stories and art can do, where the evil character is forever doomed to be the loser, with every reading of Dante’s Inferno, the lairs, the cheats, always suffer, over and over again....or Lillian is doomed to sleep with James.

Murder is final but I think spiritual murder is more evil.

Michael

(Edited by Newberry on 3/12, 12:59am)




Post 57

Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 4:08amSanction this postReply
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Dean wrote:

Charity is at odds with one's self interest when the charity is in the form of throwing away your own resources instead of using the resources to encourage flourishing. This is especially self destructive when you give charity to beggars who produce no value in any form to you, or when you give charity to looters. You don't have unlimited resources... you should donate your resources with justice, promoting individuals to be productive.

Sure, I will buy that.

Would it be fair to say that a charitable organization that helps people experiencing misfortune to get back on their feet into a productive lifestyle, carefully choosing the most promising candidates on which to spend its limited resources, would be a moral system?

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 3/12, 4:10am)




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Post 58

Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 7:37amSanction this postReply
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Historically there has been a widespread bias against intellectuals; and for the most part it has been a bias rooted in envy and fear. However, every once in a while there are moments when the musings of intellectuals leads people to a ‘bias-confirmation’ of sorts. Those moments usually occur when in the exercise of hypothesizing over some particular question or idea, the intellectualizing becomes so far removed from reality, that the conclusions drawn are absurd.

 

Just for the hell of it, I re-read this entire thread, including my own comments, and asked myself: what conclusion about those that have commented on this thread, would the average person draw after reading it? The answer I keep coming up with is: they’re nuts!

 

The question is asked, who is more evil, Mother Teresa or Adolf Hitler; a nun that lived true to the code of her church’s teachings by living her life altruistically, or a genocidal dictator responsible for the suffering and death of tens of millions? That this type of question is deemed worthy of serious debate is why the majority of people, do not consider philosophy worthy of serious consideration.

 

The problem lies in the two archetypes that have been chosen to represent the two extremes of value destroying. As Objectivists, we are all familiar with the fictional, Ellsworth Toohey, the spiritual destroyer whose ideas make monsters possible. In search for Adolf Hitler’s “Ellsworth”, whom has been chosen, none other than, Mother Teresa! Jesus Christ (no pun intended), what an incredible and ludicrous stretch of logic! This tiny Albanian woman, whom early in life completely bought into the altruistic ideal taught by the Catholic Church, and then tried to live her life in accordance with the letter of that ideal; this is the woman that is being compared to a mass murderer?! But Mother Teresa is no Ellsworth Toohey, at worst; she is a Catherine Halsey. So the proposition that has been set up, the choice between Mother Teresa and Adolf Hitler - is absurd beyond all measure of reason (or decency).  Mother Teresa is more ‘effect than cause’, and as such, she makes a terrible example as a spiritual enabler to proven monsters.

 

Compounding the problem is the fact that not all erroneous ideologies are equally flawed, much less proportionately evil. It is one thing to compare a Pope during the ‘Inquisition’ to Adolf Hitler; it is something altogether different to make an analogy between Pope John Paul II and Adolf Hitler: an analogy made absurd by the enormously changed historical and ideological context of the Pope’s role, influence and teachings. Properly asked, the question should be, who is more evil; Oswald Spengler or Adolf Hitler, Karl Marx or Joseph Stalin. In these two examples it’s apples to apples, and the context is not dropped.

 

Within this thread, Robert Bidinotto said,

“Conventional connotations of the concept "evil" include not just matters of value-content, but also of degree of harm and of malicious motive.”

I cannot agree more. But later, Robert asked,

“Then what actually and primarily defines "evil": that "evasion" which we do within the privacy of our skulls, or that destruction which we carry out in the world? … who is the most evil: he who accepts bad ideas and who evades facts -- or he who acts on bad ideas or evasion, and directly, willfully causes harm and destruction? Kant or Hitler? Mother Teresa or Ted Bundy?”

 

Notwithstanding the fact that I find the Catherine Halsey (Mother Teresa) - Ted Bundy analogy, a poor one, I would like to answer Bidinotto’s question; Robert, its Hitler and Bundy, hands down and no fucking contest. The scribblers of nonsense and evil are not the moral equivalent of those that transform evil, from the theoretical - to the actual.

 

George

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 3/12, 9:00am)




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Post 59

Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 7:58amSanction this postReply
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Robert: "In other words, repugnant as [Mother Theresa] was, she was not Adolph Hitler, or Saddam Hussein, or Ted Bundy."

I hope I'm not one of the people you were responding to, Robert. For the record, I've never made any comparison between Mother Theresa and anyone else. The only point I made on this thread was in response to Philip and Hong, showing that AR explicitly stated that a charity-based career was parasitical and opposed to egoism.

Philip: "First, she's psychologizing about the motives of -all- social workers."

The essence of social work is aid based on need. So I hardly think it's unwarranted to say that people who go into social work are motivated by a desire to aid "the needy."

"Second, if devoting one's life to correcting human flaws is a standard by which one measures a corrupt profession, why would not counseling, psychotherapy, and many forms of teaching be corrupt professions as such?"

I've already answered this. A moral practitioner in any of these professions is primarily motivated by a love for the subject matter--not by a love of "helping." For example, a moral psychotherapist is driven by his own fascination with mental processes and a burning desire to increase his own understanding and application of psychotherapeutic techniques. The benefits that his patients derive from that is secondary. But benefitting others is the means and the ends of social work.

"Third, why would someone struggling to rise up out of the slums or the gutters or the backwards parts of the world...and *correct* their flaws lack value?"

Huh? Whoever said that someone who's struggling to rise up out of poverty and correct his flaws lacks value? I think that's extremely admirable. However, "struggling" doesn't mean collecting welfare payments.

Philip: "Think. Don't just quote Rand or assume she was always right."

Thanks for the advice, Phil, but I do plenty of thinking for myself. And I'll continue to quote Rand when an Objectivist says something that directly contradicts what she said--particularly after they dismissively claim that I'm wrong about it or I'm just parodying her.
(Edited by Jon Trager
on 3/12, 1:40pm)




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