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Post 60

Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 8:05amSanction this postReply
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Hey George,
Thanks for that thorough analysis.

To Newberry:
If we hold that a man is ultimately responsible for his own thoughts and deeds, then there can be no such thing as "spiritual murder", there can only be "spiritual suicide". The devil will not collect your soul unless you give it up to him.

And...evil ideas only take effects through evil people, such as Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc.

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 3/12, 8:10am)




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Post 61

Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 8:11amSanction this postReply
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Hong, To Newberry:
"If we hold that a man is ultimately responsible for his own thoughts and deeds, then there can be no such thing as "spiritual murder", there can only be "spiritual suicide". The devil will not collect your soul unless you give it up to him."

Hong, are you familiar with the Jesuit maxim 'Give me the child until he is seven, and I will show you the man" ?



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Post 62

Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 8:18amSanction this postReply
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Joe M.,
I know real life examples where children and men who went through hell, both physically and spiritually, and came out to be decent and even heroic human being.




Post 63

Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 8:19amSanction this postReply
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And Rand escaped from Soviet Russia. Exception to the rule; that's why they are heroes.
(Edited by Joe Maurone
on 3/12, 8:21am)




Post 64

Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 8:26amSanction this postReply
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Hong, post 60:

If we hold that a man is ultimately responsible for his own thoughts and deeds, then there can be no such thing as "spiritual murder", there can only be "spiritual suicide". The devil will not collect your soul unless you give it up to him.


Brilliantly put. Brava!

George, post 58:

YES! (At least somebody gets it.)



Post 65

Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 8:29amSanction this postReply
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Ha, Joe, I believe most people who have gone through the Communist or Jesuit indoctrination have come out more or less all right too. True evil is also exception to the rule.

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 3/12, 8:30am)




Post 66

Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 8:48amSanction this postReply
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Perhaps it would be fun, I mean we have law courts and capital punishments for murderers, to devise some kind living hell, something like an intellectual torture devise that would force the perpetrators that espouse evil to spiritually experience their own prescriptions.

This idea was taken up in Tales of the Mall Masters....




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Post 67

Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 9:25amSanction this postReply
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You can always add a caveat about the spiritual destruction of children, of course: I put those kinds of monsters right up there with the initiators of force.

But those (like Kant) who propagate destructive ideas to adults are impotent if their audiences are willing to think; and those (like Mother Teresa) who practice destructive ideas are simply their own victims.

How can this possibly compare with those (like Hitler and Ted Bundy) who go after innocent victims by force, robbing, raping, butchering, and annihilating them?

Again: Is "evil" the mental abrogation of virtues? Or is it the actual destruction of values?

The Peikovian notion that "evil" is primarily a mental process -- something that occurs totally inside of one's skull (see "Fact and Value") -- is Platonic nonsense, a notion that I find utterly non-objective. How can one objectively identify, gauge, measure, reward, or punish "good" or "evil," except by reference to the real-world consequences of objective actions upon the actual values and lives of real human beings?

Incidentally, that Platonic notion of moral judgment-passing is not Rand's. She did not believe, as Peikoff does, that one can logically "infer" someone's actual moral status or psychological thought processes from his statements and ideas. Compare what Peikoff said in "Fact and Value" on that issue, with this from Rand ("Ayn Rand Answers," page 169:)
The only way to attempt this would be to identify a philosophic idea, and ask what could be the psychological motive of anyone holding it. If you wanted to expose a psychological aberration, you’d need to analyze what’s wrong with an idea and then demonstrate that only improper motives A, B, and C could lead to anyone holding such an idea. To discuss the psychological roots of certain evil or irrational ideas in this way is proper, because you are dealing solely with the implication of an idea that’s available to you; you are not passing judgment on a person. To deduce the motives of a man from his writings is improper and nonobjective, because there could be ten million motives for the same kind of action. [emphasis added]

But note here that Rand isn't even talking about determining someone's "evil" by means of inferences about his mental processes or psychological motives; she is saying the reverse: that after one identifies "evil" in some idea or action, one might perhaps try to infer the possible motives ("psychological aberrations") of the person who holds it -- with the huge caveat that "there could be ten millions motives" why someone would write or say a particular thing.

(Now, one might reasonably wonder how this squares with Rand's expressed opinions about Kant's "evil," for example; but whether she consistently applied her principle of passing moral judgment is another matter.)

In case you think this is taken out of context, try this, from Rand's recorded interview with talk show host Ray Newman:

NEWMAN: When do you classify someone as immoral?

RAND: Only when he has done...done, in fact, some immoral action... When someone in action [Rand's emphasis] does something which you know, can prove, is an immoral, vicious action -- a sin, not a value; or a vice (whichever you want to call it) -- then you have to judge him as he has proved.

You never judge a person on mere potentials, and you seldom judge him on what he says, because most people do not really speak very exactly; and on the basis of some one inadvertant remark you would not judge a person as immoral. If, however, he goes about the country preaching immoral ideas, then you would classify him as immoral.

...But the important thing here is the degree of knowledge a given person has.

If you do not know exactly the nature of what you are doing, then you can't be considered immoral -- particularly if it's a young person and it's correctible. A person can make a mistake and correct it. [emphasis added]

But it would have to be a major crime -- for instance, a person lying. Let's use that as an example. I would never forgive that at all. I would regard that as a top immorality, and regard that person as immoral, regardless of what kind of virtues he or she might have. Needless to say, if you have a robber or a murderer, or a person who is systematically breaking the rights of other people, you would call him immoral, no matter what lesser virtues he might have. [Note that these "evils" are all actions. -- RJB]

So you, in judging people of mixed premises, as most people are, you have to balance, in effect hierarchically, the seriousness of their virtues and of their vices, and see what you get in the net result.


Try to square these statements with Peter Schwartz's and Leonard Peikoff's moral equations of libertarians with the Soviet regime, or David Kelley with late Soviet apologist Armand Hammer -- or with their view that Kant was morally worse than Hitler and Stalin.



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Post 68

Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 10:26amSanction this postReply
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Ha! This reminds me of the Hero thread, and those that do not think creators are not heros. Bah!

If I systematically wanted to be an evil monster, I won’t go and kill someone, you silly people, its too temporal, you do it and then get your just deserts. Everyone knows your evil. No, no, no, way too transparent and stupid a person. That can’t be real evil. Real evil is when the shit hits the fan everyone is blaming all the wrong people and they don’t even have the methodology to discover who mastermind is/was...now that is evil. And you walk away in your humble tweeds smoking a pipe and everyone thinks that you are simply a nice person but hard to understand.

Someone has to form the evil ideas, plans, systems in the first place–the rest are players on a stage acting out the parts that were fed to them!

(Edited by Newberry on 3/12, 10:31am)




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Post 69

Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 10:27amSanction this postReply
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Ok, my marathon coffee buzz has worn off, and it seems we're at an impasse, so my prosecution rests on the words of Mother Theresa herself.

One final thought: We've been arguing the specific cases of Mother Theresa and Adolph Hitler, who was worse. But I say that they are two sides of the same coin, and that it the combination of "Faith and Force" as destroyers of the modern world that is the real issue (Though I wonder how far off the topic of Joe R.'s point we've strayed?).



Post 70

Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 10:50amSanction this postReply
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Well said Michael.
George: "Those moments usually occur when in the exercise of hypothesizing over some particular question or idea, the intellectualizing becomes so far removed from reality, that the conclusions drawn are absurd."

I don't know that this is one of those times, George. Joe R.'s article is clearly challenging the traditional notion of evil through an Objectivist framework, justifying the question of whether self-sacrifice is on a par with murder,using the archetypes of Hitler and Mother Theresa. And I think it's an argument fully supported by Objectivism. Now could be a good time to reread THINK TWICE from THE EARLY AYN RAND. (Robert B., I understand you have an essay on this story?).

What is absurd is the denial of people who, after seeing their ideals in practice, proclaim "BUT I DIDN'T MEAN IT!", because they were afraid to criticize a "sweet little old nun" (what made her an excellent nun, anyway, and why should an Objectivist honor such an achievement?), not the hypothesizing people who call into question the morality of those who practice faith and self-sacrifice.

Think Twice.

(Edited by Joe Maurone
on 3/12, 11:03am)




Post 71

Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 10:56amSanction this postReply
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Newberry:

Someone has to form the evil ideas, plans, and systems in the first place–the rest are players on a stage acting out the parts that were fed to them!

 

Michael, if by the above you mean that Al Capone is more evil than the hit man he sent out to kill a rival gang leader: then I agree. But, if someone were to postulate that Machiavelli and Sun Tzu are more to blame and evil than Al Capone, because 'Scarface' got his inspiration from them while reading books in prison, I would say: bullshit.

 

Joe Maurone, I barely have any idea what you are talking about, or how it relates to anything I said.

 

George

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 3/12, 11:24am)




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Post 72

Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 11:28amSanction this postReply
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George, you wrote: "Just for the hell of it, I re-read this entire thread, including my own comments, and asked myself: what conclusion about those that have commented on this thread, would the average person draw after reading it? The answer I keep coming up with is: they’re nuts!

The question is asked, who is more evil, Mother Teresa or Adolf Hitler; a nun that lived true to the code of her church’s teachings by living her life altruistically, or a genocidal dictator responsible for the suffering and death of tens of millions? That this type of question is deemed worthy of serious debate is why the majority of people, do not consider philosophy worthy of serious consideration. "

I wrote that Joe R.'s article is justified and not absurd, and I said why. You appeal to the opinion of the "Average person" as justification to condemn this conversation. But it is the average person who does not question the drivel spewed forth by people like Mother Theresa, and when they see their ideas in action, scream "but that's not what I meant!" And they are the ones who are ultimately absurd and nuts.

As Joe R. wrote, "A package-deal like this is very difficult to overcome, both conceptually, and in the ability to communicate these moral concepts. The first step is in the identification of the package-deal." Justifies this conversation.

Clear now?

(Edited by Joe Maurone
on 3/12, 11:30am)

(Edited by Joe Maurone
on 3/12, 1:01pm)




Post 73

Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 11:28amSanction this postReply
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George,

You would have to give me the specifics of Tzu and Machiavelli, I don’t know them but for the names.. But let me give you a specific hypothetical:

I write a novel in which I outline a radically brilliant way for terrorists to unleash a dirty bomb. Of course that would make for exciting reading. But if then real-life terrorists follow the plan I outlined, something they couldn’t figure out themselves, and unleashed the bomb...I would be the guiltiest party. (Thats a more obvious example, where you could trace the method to me, not very clever that.)

Again, I nice eccentric guy or gal sitting there cozy writing studio devising realistic plans to annihilate half of humanity...undoubtedly you would not be able to take them out in a court of law...but there might be other means...

Michael

(Edited by Newberry on 3/12, 11:29am)




Post 74

Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 11:59amSanction this postReply
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I would say that the two bastards that read your 'how too, terrorist manual" were two outcomes, looking for an excuse. Your book, became their excuse.

BTW, an actual case like this happened in the 80s, when a book called, The Turner Diaries, was written by a racist. The book is a fictional account of a small racist militia that wages WWIII to ultimate victory. In the book, the author reccomended the war begin by the killing of famous Jews and blacks, he also advised the militias to finance their activity through armed robbery. Later, a white supremist named, Robert Matthews, formed a small terror organization; this group killed a radio talk show host named Alan Berg, and later they robbed an armored car filled with millions.

What do I think?

I think Matthews was already an evil fuck, and all that The Turner Diaries did was ignite what was already there.

Do I think the author of that book is culpable in any way?

Yes, but not to the degree that Matthews was. Also, had that book been written a hundred years before Matthews was born, (the context changes), then I believe the author is even less culpabale, and less worthy of the designation: "more evil than Matthews was".

Now, the more directly related the book author is to the consequnces of his writing, the greater his culpability, and hence the greater the chance that he, more than the conspirators, is more evil. But, once again, notice the context shifting yet again. For example, from Newberry the historical footnote, that wrote a 'how to kill jews' book in 1600; to Newberry, the contemporary artists nut with a good "how to kill Jews book" written during a period of anti-semitic terror killings; to Newberry, the current KKK leader, writing a book for his active militia, while running the so-called "civilian" or "political" arm of his movement.

So the answer to your hypothetical is answered by three words: Context, Degree, and Proportionality.

George

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 3/12, 2:07pm)




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Post 75

Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 12:01pmSanction this postReply
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Michael Newberry wrote:

I write a novel in which I outline a radically brilliant way for terrorists to unleash a dirty bomb. Of course that would make for exciting reading. But if then real-life terrorists follow the plan I outlined, something they couldn’t figure out themselves, and unleashed the bomb...I would be the guiltiest party.

For a genuine example, refer to the infamous book Hit Man: A Technical Manual for Independent Contractors by Rex Feral.  This book led to a famous court case in which the families of victims murdered using the techniques in this book sued the publisher.  The movie Deliberate Intent dramatized these events.  This raises interesting questions for Objectivists.  Must we stop at mere moral condemnation of such an author, or should we also have legal recourse against him?  If the latter, why stop at murder manuals?  Why not also sue or fine or jail those who spout other harmful ideas?

I did not feel very happy that the families won the lawsuit, but I can understand why they sued.




Post 76

Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 12:08pmSanction this postReply
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Much of this conversation is a rehash of the controversy surrounding Rand's essay of accusing Kennedy of being as bad as Hitler. It was bad enough to cause a break between Rand and Bennett Cerf/Random House. I have a feeling that the average man who found this comparison distateful is going to feel the same way about the Mother Theresa/Hitler comparison. Should Rand have worried about the perception of her as nuts?


BTW, came across this lovely little quote from Ghandi that relates here:

" I do not consider Hitler to be as bad as he is depicted. He is showing an ability that is amazing and seems to be gaining his victories without much bloodshed ?"

Mahatma Gandhi, May 1940

"Background for the above quote: It was made in May of 1940, when the battles of World War II were just beginning, where the Germany's blitzkrieg was indeed swift and relatively bloodless compared to the battle trenches of the World War One. Also at the time the persecution of the Jews in the eyes of the world was limited to lowered civil rights, concentration camps and ghettos. Just a few years before even so notable an adversary to Hitler as Winston Churchill, in his book Great Contemporaries (1937) had declared: 'One may dislike Hitler’s system and yet admire his patriotic achievement. If our country were defeated, I hope we should find a champion as admirable to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations.'"

Ghandi also said "Hitler killed five million [sic] Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher's knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs."
Comment to biographer Louis Fischer (June, 1946).



Post 77

Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 12:21pmSanction this postReply
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George,

What a politically correct answer!

And your right, I may be on the most evil people in the world, and no one is going to know it.

Michael




Post 78

Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 12:28pmSanction this postReply
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Michael, I sent you a PM.



Post 79

Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 12:43pmSanction this postReply
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Luke wrote: "Must we stop at mere moral condemnation of such an author, or should we also have legal recourse against him?"

The only punishment I can think of is to turn the evil genius over to the care and indoctrination by Phil and Luke.




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