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Post 0

Friday, June 2, 2006 - 3:32pmSanction this postReply
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Thank you, Ed. This is one of the best presentations of Lao Tzu's philosophy that I have read.

Sam




Post 1

Friday, June 2, 2006 - 4:02pmSanction this postReply
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Thank you Sam!!!

I appreciate your good words.

It was probably the easiest and fastest essay I have ever written. I just tried to stick with the essentials.

Take care.

Ed



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Post 2

Friday, June 2, 2006 - 9:45pmSanction this postReply
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Ah, Tao Te Ching is a very condensed and tricky book, difficult to interpret.

I just want to comment on Lao Tsu's concept of "wu wei" or "nonaction". To my understanding, "Wu wei" does not really mean "to do nothing", or to achieve nothing. I think the act of "wu-wei" is actually the most supreme kind of action that get things done in a seemingly effortless way.

For example, an old saying goes like this:

"A bad emperor people hate,
A good emperor people praise,
For a supreme emperor, people tend to forget that he even exists".

It's not that the supreme emperor does not govern, but that he governs in such a way that is completely in accordance with the wills of his people. Thus in an ideal and peaceful society, people would not even feel that they are "governed" by anyone. I think this is very useful for corporate executives or anyone who is in a supervisor position. The best leaders are those who inspire their people to be self-motivated. 

At a personal level, "wu-wei" sometimes is the best way to achieve biggest personal gain. And to act "selflessly" sometimes will benefit the self the most.

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 6/03, 9:37pm)




Post 3

Saturday, June 3, 2006 - 8:04amSanction this postReply
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One lesson I draw from Ed Younkins's thoughtful article is just how good philosophy can be when it's freed of religion. And despite what Ayn Rand probably thought, traditional Chinese polytheism/mythology was not religious. Philosophy came first and was the template for the super-deity. But true religion/monotheism seems to corrupt and degrade everything.
 
On the one hand, "god" seems like a virtually harmless way to comfort yourself, and a clever way to keep other people in line. And it also gives one something lofty and noble to aim for, supposedly. But on the other hand, religion always seems to come with heavy baggage and involve vast trickeration. This is probably why there is evidently no such thing as a good religion or a bad philosophy. So long as your philosophy is philosophy -- which means freed of "god" -- it basically has to make sense and be decently insightful and useful.
 
I also appreciate the fact that Professor Younkins is bold and brave enough to venture out into the realm of Chinese thought. In my judgment, there are small but good nuggets of wisdom to be found in Taoism, Confuscianism, and Buddhism -- all somewhat primitive, but religion-free philosophies.




Post 4

Saturday, June 3, 2006 - 8:22amSanction this postReply
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Thank you, Ed Younkins, for this summary of Lao-tzu.

In his book Disputers of the Tao: Philosophical Argument in Ancient China (1989), W.C. Graham describes Lao-tzu's Taoism as the art of ruling by spontaneity. Graham says that wu wei should not be translated as non-action, but by the paradoxical do nothing.

Here is Lao-tzu describing the sage as "doing nothing."
The Way constantly does nothing yet there is nothing it does not do.
If lords and kings are able to hold fast to it 
The myriad things of themselves will be transformed. (#37, Tao te ching)
Graham says that there are other contexts in which wu wei is best translated as "doing but . . . "
To generate but without taking possession,
To do but without presuming on it,
To lead but without managing,
This call the Dark Potency. (#10 = #50)
Hong Zhang's guidance in post #2 coincides with that given by Graham, who writes that the essential thought here "is not to interfere when things are already running well by themselves." The sage says
"If I do nothing, of themselves the people are transformed.
If I love stillness, of themselves the people are correct.
If I meddle in nothing, of themselves the people are rich.
If I desire nothing, of themselves the people are unhewn." (#57)




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Post 5

Saturday, June 3, 2006 - 8:48amSanction this postReply
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Ed, you report:
Lao Tzu recommended withdrawal from society and retreat into contemplation. He set an ethical goal for the individual only in the retreat into the wisdom and values of the inner self. His ideal society is one in which people live in simplicity, harmony, and contentment, and are not bothered by ambition, desire, or competitive striving. Desires cause harmful relationships between the self and others and lead men to appropriate things for their own satisfaction. Desires are evoked by the attractiveness and variety of things. Lao Tzu counsels people to make their desires negligible, to minimize their personal interests, to limit and diminish the self and the self-other distinction, and to return the self to a state of primitive contentment. He denounces the gratification of one’s appetites and senses and the search for wealth and status. A person who lives according to his true being and nature will seek solitude and creative quietude and will act through freedom from desires, selflessness, softness, moderation, and openness to all things. He will follow a peaceful, simple, and frugal way of life not searching for wealth, . . .
Do you think this ideal is a correct one for us? Which parts, if any, do you think are good for us? Which parts, if any, are bad for us?

Do you think this ideal is correct for some of us, but incorrect for some of us? Is it ideal at some stages of a life, but not at others?

The ideal above posed by Lao tzu (and Epicurus) is opposite the ideal posed by Rand. What elements in this area do you think Rand got right as opposed to Lao tzu, and what elements do you think Lao tzu got right as opposed to Rand? I mean elements in these ideals for us today.




Post 6

Saturday, June 3, 2006 - 4:22pmSanction this postReply
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One thing should be kept in context here - the idea of a zero-sum world was very much abounded then, so the trader principle was an unknown as such.. thus is understandable, under the circumstances, that he would have advocated a retreating from the tribalist, corrupt world, seeing as there seemed no other recourse...



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Post 7

Saturday, June 3, 2006 - 9:10pmSanction this postReply
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...traditional Chinese polytheism/mythology was not religious.
Yes, I very much agree with Andre here. And then, Taosim, Confucianism, etc. were not even polytheism/mythology, they were the more aptly called "schools of thoughts" that appeared during the "Spring and Autumn" to the "Warrior States" eras and have stuck ever since. And Buddhism was only introduced to China some 600 years after Lao Tsu and Confucius. Though I'd say that Buddhism is a religion, even though it is very different from the monotheistic Christianity and Islam.

Because of these mostly non-religious traditions, most Chinese people do not have the notion that morality has to be connected to a particular religion.

Edit to add: Moreover, Taoism, Confucianism and Buddhism are not mutually exclusive of each other. They share a lot of common grounds. As far as I understand, they are not even necessarily exclusive of Christianity or Islam, though it is not so the other way around.
..."god" seems like a virtually harmless way to comfort yourself,
"harmless"? I am not sure about that. There have been so many atrocities committed in God's name since the very beginning.

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 6/03, 9:45pm)




Post 8

Sunday, June 4, 2006 - 8:29amSanction this postReply
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================
He says that the fall from the Tao is caused by government and society having lost the truth. The fall from the Tao stems from desire, intention, and self-striving. The use of free will can interfere with Tao. People, including rulers, should therefore avoid determined action and strong will. A person should be passive and not try to change anything.

A sage would move and live naturally and would be empty of pretense and free from desires. He would not attempt to help life along or make a display of himself. A sage would claim moral ignorance, would understand the reversibility of things in the world, and would endeavor to create a peaceful atmosphere.

[break]

As a quietist, he says man cannot solve social problems but he can forsake them.
================

What an inherently dismal sense of life (when you remember that we are potentially growing souls -- what Rand called self-made souls).

Ed




Post 9

Sunday, June 4, 2006 - 1:29pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Good stuff, as usual. It caused me to have some déjà vu about my 1995 book on Northrop. F. S. C. Northrop, as you may remember cause quite a stir in 1946 with his MEETING OF THE EAST AND WEST, which the New York Times Book Review called “the most important intellectual event of the year.” In that book, Northrop spends several chapters on Eastern religion (‘thought’) and you might want to take a look at chapters IX and x, especially the stuff on Daoism. I think I place a copy in the library back when I was teaching there.
By the way, I’m teaching the Religions of the World this semester and one major difference I see between Daoism on the one hand and Hinduism, Judaism and Christianity on the other is the relative absence of bloodthirstiness in the former compare to the other three. Krishna tells Arjuna to slaughter his relatives; God promises to annihilate bunches of folk so that the Israelites can have some real estate; and Matthew, Mark and Luke all recommend the “millstone” treatment to those who would lead astray any of little ones who have faith. And let’s not forgot the Koran. In Sura 9.5, the Koran advises to “make war and kill those who don’t accept Islam.” On the other hand, I read somewhere that Lao tzu said to read the Dao and if you don’t agree perhaps you can have a good laugh. My kind of guy.

Fred





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Post 10

Sunday, June 4, 2006 - 4:59pmSanction this postReply
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He says that the fall from the Tao is caused by government and society having lost the truth. The fall from the Tao stems from desire, intention, and self-striving. The use of free will can interfere with Tao. People, including rulers, should therefore avoid determined action and strong will. A person should be passive and not try to change anything.


I took a half a year's long meditation/Taoism class in which the class read and talked about the Tao Te Ching. This wasn't the interpretation of the teacher I had. The general idea I got from it was a balanced view-- instead of extremism of either passive idiocy or neurotic paranoia-- you went for an aware, efficient state of mind through Tai Chi (which I took for a year), studying Tao Te Ching, and meditation. He did not eschew free will, action, or strong will. Actually, it took all of those to achieve focused balance-- like martial arts, you set a general goal but didn't worry about the details because you can't determine your opponents' moves ahead of time, and thus can't determine what you will exactly do every step of the way. So there definitely was the idea that one couldn't "force things" to happen via a rigid path.

However, I'm still thinking on what's meant by "empty mind", which I think is more of a whole-istic, balanced, aware, and calm state than a literal interpretation of striving for not thinking at all. I think the Chinese--->English translation, also, is pretty tricky, especially if it's also poetic/metaphoric/analogous. I remember my mom had a problem with explaining to me her poems in English because she also had to explain why certain, say, flowers or seasons, had symbolic cultural importance.



Post 11

Sunday, June 4, 2006 - 10:51pmSanction this postReply
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===============
People, including rulers, should therefore avoid determined action and strong will. A person should be passive and not try to change anything.
===============

Okay Jenna, you've posted an argument for realism (ie. change what you can). But can you see the difference between THAT and not trying to change anything (as the quote suggests)?

Not trying to change anything is antithetical to our species -- a species that lives BY changing things (Tao-ism it is anti-man and, therefore, anti-life).

We are that thing that changes things (for our survival and flourishing) -- thus is our nature (and Tao-ism contradicts this right way for us to exist).

Ed




Post 12

Monday, June 5, 2006 - 6:59amSanction this postReply
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Thanks for all the insightful comments!!!

What I like about Lao Tzu's writings is his concern with the establishment of peace and the metanormative structural political conditions that allow for self-determination and for the possibility of human flourishing. Of course, his own view of what a man should do to "flourish" is far different from what what those of us who are neo-Aristotelians would argue for. The point is that such a system allows each individual person himself to think and choose the way he wants to live his life. Lao Tzu's recommended normative style of existence is far from that recommended by Ayn Rand but at a metanormative level they agree that ethical decisions are up to the individual human person and not up to the state. Such a state is based on the metanormative principle that the ruler has no right to interfere in people's lives. All ethical norms are not of the same type--some are metanormative and others are normative. For a discussion of this see Rasmussen and Den Uyl's Norms of Liberty.

Ed





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Post 13

Monday, June 5, 2006 - 2:39pmSanction this postReply
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Ed--

I'm just saying don't take the study of Taoism by this interpretation alone-- the Tao Te Ching itself has elements of stuff I agree with, and stuff I don't; some of that may be because the Eastern viewpoint is markedly different and I'm seeing it from a Western view. My teacher did not think Lao Tzu was morally ignorant, as it was stressed that the Tao meant "the Way" or "the Path", which is what is; and what one should stick to in order to live a good life. To me, that was a fundamental moral choice. So I think it depends on what "moral ignorance" means in the context of that paragraph, or where in the Tao Te Ching that comes from.

I didn't agree with the Taoism teacher on a lot of stuff either, but I saw the Tao as general "laws of nature" that couldn't be changed, but could be used for one's goal. I also don't literally think "you can't change anything" means that, for then it would obviously be direct opposition to the point that "practicing non-action" endorses a change. It most likely means "you can't change the laws of nature", as the focus of the Tao Te Ching is the Tao.

As for desire, it always seemed to mean "desire for fame, wealth, and power" in Buddhism as well as Taoism, and is a pretty shallow way to live life by if that is the sole concern of the person.

"Assertion", in the Taoist sense, means wasteful, direct force and comes from the desire for power over something. I don't think using the words "free will as interfering with the Tao" is accurate, since one can use free will in accordance with the Tao.

In any case, the time context of Lao Tzu is way different than the time we live in; also I see a thick thread of Chinese culture running through the Tao Te Ching in the realm of "social restraint" and "keeping the social peace". It can be good at times, but taken to extremes isn't that healthy. I'd also go and read the Tao Te Ching, but I'd also keep in mind that it is rather poetic, metaphoric, contains a great deal of the Eastern way of thinking (wholistic, cyclical, unifying), and, most importantly-- translated and interpreted.



Post 14

Monday, June 5, 2006 - 2:51pmSanction this postReply
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Good reply, Jenna. Idea-broadening.

Ed T.




Post 15

Monday, June 5, 2006 - 4:58pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Jenna:

Thanks for your thoughtful and knowledgeable insights!!! I am a novice when it comes to Lao Tzu. :)

As a natural law thinker myself, I certainly prefer your interpretation.

Also, I agree that the use of free will may or may not interfere with Tao. When I said "the use of free will can interfere" I did not mean that it always did interfere. Proper use of free will would be in accordance with Tao.

I really appreciate your great comments and look forward to reading some of your essays at ROR!!!

Cheers!!!

Ed





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Post 16

Monday, June 5, 2006 - 8:26pmSanction this postReply
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Both Eds--

Thanks! And I'll check out Norms of Liberty, I've heard of Rasmussen & Den Uyl but never have read their works. What are they about?

I like some of what Lao Tzu, the Tao Te Ching, and Tai Chi offers-- there is value and power in understanding balance, cyclical patterns and a wholistic (not monolithic) viewpoint; that self-knowledge is a virtue; that forcing against nature brings misery; and things have their position in space and time; etc. -- all of which can be a great complement to Western thinking.

I think there is healthy competition that is founded on individuals' secure self-worth, respect, and joy (maybe, unfortunately, Lao Tzu never saw this type happen); and there is competition is founded on envy, hate, destruction, and force.

However, I'm not into supplanting my own goals to keep social peace [i.e. save face, being unreasonably humble, minimizing the self, or other specific elements of what I see more as Chinese culture].

I think I inadvertently answered SB's post somewhat, but I take out of the Tao Te Ching what is appropriate for today's space and time as relevant to my life while reminding myself of the Tao Te Ching's historical and cultural context.



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Post 17

Thursday, June 8, 2006 - 9:40amSanction this postReply
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I have a copy of the Tao Te Ching, from during my days of interest in Eastern philosophy. Interesting poetry, but far too vague - much as Taoism is. It is this ambiguity which I've seen far too many people take advantage of, for the sake of their own whim-worships, arbitrary premises and evasions of reality. This is a prevalent theme in all of mysticism, as I've observed. In the absence of erudition, clarity and definition, people are prone to mining such "mystery" for ores of intellectual onanism, rather than thinking in a vacuum or simply looking at the facts at hand, and admitting that there is inadequate knowledge.

After getting to know several people who've professed a love for Taoism as their ruling philosophy [all of whom were Westerners], I am deeply in agreement with Ed Thompson's views that Taoism is anti-man/anti-life. Or, at the very least, the nature of the philosophy is such that it fosters anti-life behaviors in those who seek refuge from constant assault under reality. But having inspected numerous Taoistic writings, I am heavily inclined with the former assertion. There is a kind of attitude that I gather from Taoistic teachings which has led me to think that Taoism advocates something which I refer to as "Animal Objectivity".
Animal objectivity can be described as a state of being whereby one has renounced the fullest use of their mind in favor of minimal use of it, so as to drift along with the path of "least resistance". It is such a state, where one simply exists at the lowest, simplest and rudimentary level to the extent that is humanly possible; whereby the result is the reduction of one's life to the perceptually-given. The Western-equivalent to this, is known as Pragmatism. Taoism, as I perceive it, is indifferent from any other form of mysticism in the respect that it advocates the abandonment of the mind. Essentially, and ultimately, as I see it, Taoism proposes that we all revert to that which we've spent centuries upon centuries of struggling, enduring, and efforts to evolve from. Indeed, it is anti-life, in my opinion.

Having said that, I'd like to mention that there are some redeemable aspects of Taoism - or rather Taoistic teachings I've read. The first that comes to mind is that Taoism is an Atheistic philosophy. In fact, I have a book on my shelf, called "365 Tao", and on page 211, the opening statement is:

Those who follow Tao declare that there is no evidence that a god created our world. They have not found any empirical proof, and they cannot accept the idea philosophically.

 

That statement alone garners much respect from myself, for such honesty. Then after that statement, the author takes a total 180 degree turnaround, and begins describing what qualities a "god" would need in order to qualify as a philosophically acceptable premise. Long story short: the author's verdict seems to be that existence = god. Whether this is a glaring contradiction or simply an assertion that requires highly sophisticated reasoning that is compatible with the primacy of existence, is uncertain, but I optimistically lean towards the latter.

Aside from the Atheistic qualities of Taoism, there is also the somewhat redeeming aspect of simplicity and sincerity - which to the untrained, indiscriminate or naive mind, can make it a rather attractive philosophy. I caution 'somewhat', because as we all know, there are many actions which can be quite 'sincere' but in effect, devastating due to contradictory premises. By that same token, there are quite a few actions which may seem harsh, but in reality, are benevolent.

In conclusion: Taoism is an ancient philosophy, and as such, it carries the ancient premises [traditions, ideas, beliefs, etc.] which are often archaic, out-dated, misunderstood and unnecessary by today's standards. Stagnation is never conducive to evolution. I'd recommend the philosophy to one who is simply interested in weeding out the good from the bad; separating the wheat from the chaff. But I would not advise it to any misguided, naive or well-to-do human who wishes to adopt, learn or master a philosophy that is consistent with reality, his identity, life, goals, and purpose.

 I'll wrap this up with a link to one of the best articles I've read in the time I've spent here, titled "The Past of Most Resistance", by Joseph Rowlands - especially since it is in contradistinction to Taoist teachings.
http://rebirthofreason.com/Articles/Rowlands/The_Path_of_Most_Resistance.shtml

(Edited by Warren Chase Anspaugh on 6/08, 9:43am)

(Edited by Warren Chase Anspaugh on 6/08, 9:48am)




Post 18

Thursday, June 8, 2006 - 10:32amSanction this postReply
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Warren,

Thanks for that compelling post (and Rowlands link)! It was what I was feeling, but as-of-yet unable to articulate.

Ed





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