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Post 0

Monday, August 21, 2006 - 9:18amSanction this postReply
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Joe, that was an excellent article!  I especially liked your identification of the Labor Theory of value (or "cost basis") being used to evaluate moral choices.  That was very insightful.  I think the article will help many people to clarify their moral thinking and identify the altruist baggage they're still carrying.



Post 1

Monday, August 21, 2006 - 10:10amSanction this postReply
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Joe:

You have a knack of being able to explain complex issues in language that anyone can understand. I look forward to the time when the Atlas Shrugged movie will be screened. At that time I think there will be great interest by newbies wanting to understand more about Objectivism. Your essays will be their gateway.

Sam




Post 2

Monday, August 21, 2006 - 11:32amSanction this postReply
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I agree with Sam.  The framework you've outlined is very clear, understandable, and quite accurate, though I must admit I've only read through the subheading "Labor theory of Virtue".

So far, I only have one issue.

I grew up in a Christian setting, and the doctrine set forth by the particular denomination (Mennonite) certainly emphasized altruism (or "service").  But the ideal motivation for altruistic actions was not sacrifice for the sake of being moral, but service stemming from compassion.  It would be viewed as virtuous sacrifice in retrospect, yes, but in the moment, the action would be most moral if a person gave no thought whatsoever to the cost or risk to himself.  He should be so overwhelmed with compassion that self-interest doesn't even occur to him.

You're right--after the fact, the action would be considered more moral if the harm to oneself was greater.  The story of Luke 21:1-4, "The Widow's Offering" (same, in essence, as the example you gave under "Understanding Altruism") was spoken of reverently as an example of virtue.  But thinking "this costs me dearly--I'm so moral" in the moment of giving would be perceived in the same light as thinking "I'll gain good publicity by doing this."  They both count as ulterior motives.

I think the point is that the more a person is capable of sacrificing out of compassion without thinking of the cost/risk to oneself (or how moral one is being by giving), the more moral the person is.  But I also haven't been to church for years, so maybe I'm a little rusty.  Or perhaps my church's notion of "service" was just slightly different from the general doctrine of altruism.




Post 3

Monday, August 21, 2006 - 11:53amSanction this postReply
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Well written, and very insightful.



Post 4

Monday, August 21, 2006 - 12:30pmSanction this postReply
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I'm not finished with this article yet, but I just have to echo Sam.  I so enjoy how Joe explains things, and he does indeed have a "knack" for bringing complex issues within easy grasp.   Excellent examples and explanations. 

Great reading.  Can't wait to get home and finish it!  :)  




Post 5

Monday, August 21, 2006 - 12:37pmSanction this postReply
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Superb article!



Post 6

Monday, August 21, 2006 - 2:25pmSanction this postReply
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Outstanding!



Post 7

Monday, August 21, 2006 - 3:58pmSanction this postReply
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Absolutely fantastic work, Joe.   Brilliant.




Post 8

Monday, August 21, 2006 - 11:23pmSanction this postReply
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Hi everyone.  Glad you liked the speech.  I'm glad you took the effort of reading such a long piece, and that you found it worthwhile.

Laure, thanks for being specific about what you liked.  I try for clarity in my writing, and that's the kind of feedback that really helps.

Sam, thank you for the compliment.  I'm glad you think my writing is understandable.  Hopefully if people do get interested in Objectivist ideas, my writing might help them along.

Ben, I think every altruist would argue along the lines you mention.  I don't think the sacrificial ethics was ever supposed to be the goal.  But as I wrote in the speech, when it's the method by which you measure your moral worth, it doesn't take long before it becomes the de facto purpose.  Also, note that you mention "ulterior motives".  This is the whole reason why it must be truly self-sacrificial. Even doing it for the sake of being moral is too selfish.  It really fits the pattern I described.  You're supposed to do it for the right reason and anything less, or any ulterior motive, corrupts it.

Teresa, I'm glad you liked the examples.  Did anything in particular stand out for you?

Robert, Ricky, and Luke, thanks you and I'm glad you liked it.




Post 9

Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 12:16amSanction this postReply
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I don't think the sacrificial ethics was ever supposed to be the goal.  But as I wrote in the speech, when it's the method by which you measure your moral worth, it doesn't take long before it becomes the de facto purpose.

Unintended consequences.....




Post 10

Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 6:00amSanction this postReply
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Teresa, I'm glad you liked the examples.  Did anything in particular stand out for you?
Yes!  The examples showing the differences in action between Objectivist Virtues (Exploring the Virtues) and Altruistic Framework (Al and Ratsi). 

Your comparisons were extremely "real to life."  Easy to identify with.

Like Laure, the "cost vs. benefit" factors were something I never thought or heard of before. Very insightful.  In fact, I think you've created a whole new way to approach the Objectivist ethic with just a few key terms.  Brilliant.

The Heroism section about had me in tears.  Beautiful. Refreshing. Timely. 

If this is published in print form, I'm buyin.'  This is definitely a speech to refer back to time and again.

One frustration: You don't have a wider audience. 




Post 11

Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 7:18amSanction this postReply
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The Atlas Society plans to produce Joe's fine talk, probably in several formats. Stay tuned.



Post 12

Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 8:27amSanction this postReply
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Good to hear.... hope is the same with the other speeches given here from the seminar.....



Post 13

Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 12:55pmSanction this postReply
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Teresa, thank you! I spent months working on the examples of the virtues. I'm glad you appreciated them. I defined very specific criteria for the examples to try to highlight the differences without caricaturing Al's actions. It had to actually come off as virtuous from that perspective. But there were additional criteria to try to show how one side treats virtues as rules instead of principles, how the consequences are due to their own earlier actions, how they think they can achieve moral virtue with a single act, how the morality is measured in cost, and even highlighting how the real moral person is more successful in life. That you found them "real to life" makes them even better.

I agree with the frustration of not having a wider audience. It's also a 10,000 word essay, so even if people knew about it, getting them to read it might take a lot. I'm open to suggestions on how to expand that audience.





Post 14

Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 2:52pmSanction this postReply
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I agree with the frustration of not having a wider audience. It's also a 10,000 word essay, so even if people knew about it, getting them to read it might take a lot. I'm open to suggestions on how to expand that audience.
Audio.  I wish Atlas Society would start podcasting.... It's cheap, it's effective, and it's popular.

All of the seminar talks could be uploaded in Mp3 format for downloading by subscription, or one at a time for a fee, or for free, by the whole world. No need to ship out CD's or tapes (but they should still be offered, I supposed).
                                Get the casts listed on "ITunes." 

Get a freaking feed on the AS website, so we know when new stuff is available. I haven't looked lately, but last time I checked, a feed icon was not visible.

Get a feed on this site, so people will know when new articles (or audios???:) are submitted.

Gotta go!  Think about it.




Post 15

Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 9:22amSanction this postReply
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Joe:

I think your concrete examples were spot on and I think that this is the sort of thing that newbies can understand more better than an abstract presentation. May I suggest that others on this forum might construct some more moral scenarios such as those you have created?

Sam




Post 16

Tuesday, September 5, 2006 - 4:54pmSanction this postReply
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For those interested, I've been asked to deliver this speech at the local "Silicon Valley Objectivists" club in Santa Clara, CA. I'll actually do that in a week on the evening of Sunday, Sept 10th (2006). Contact me for details if you're interested.



Post 17

Tuesday, September 5, 2006 - 10:19pmSanction this postReply
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Teresa and Sam,

Teresa, thanks for the suggestions.  I also think making speeches available through MP3 would be useful.  But speaking isn't my strong point, and I'm not willing to put the time and energy in to get better.  I do think more multimedia would be useful, I just haven't found a niche.  And I have no say in what The Atlas Society does.  You should direct those suggestions to Ed Hudgins.

As far as getting a feed for this site, I prefer to just have a constant stream of new stuff so people will know there's always something here.  But I'll look into it.

Sam, I've been thinking about how to approach Objectivism through examples like these.  Maybe that'll be one of my next projects, as time permits.  It would be great to get other people offering examples too.  These ones were interesting partly because they were contrasting the different perspectives.




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