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Post 0

Friday, October 20, 2006 - 7:14amSanction this postReply
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Could someone please fix the link.

Thanks.



Post 1

Friday, October 20, 2006 - 9:17amSanction this postReply
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Fixed,

sorry!

Ethan




Post 2

Friday, October 20, 2006 - 9:56amSanction this postReply
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Excellent points, Tibor, and they echo some that I’ve made in a recent piece.

 

I suspect that Dyson might be making an equivocation between what I call cognitive understanding and empathetic understanding. The former doesn’t always lead to the latter and indeed may prohibit it in the case of vicious individuals. Of course, if one holds the doctrine that all evil is do to ignorance, as Socrates and the Stoics held, all cognitive understanding should yield an empathetic understanding for the mistakes of our enemies.

 

Bad ideas don’t die an easy death, unfortunately.




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Post 3

Friday, October 20, 2006 - 9:13pmSanction this postReply
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In general it is foolish not to respect your enemies. In the sense that to disrespect them is to underestimate them. To underestimate a human who wants to kill you is to give him one more weapon against you.



Post 4

Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 12:55amSanction this postReply
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Mike Erickson said: In general it is foolish not to respect your enemies. In the sense that to disrespect them is to underestimate them. To underestimate a human who wants to kill you is to give him one more weapon against you.

 

Mike, I cannot disagree more. For me, respect, is a word that has the connotation of expressing a degree of reverence.

 

Respect: the condition of being esteemed or honored, to hold in esteem or honor, to show regard or consideration for, to refrain from intruding upon or interfering with, to relate or have reference to.

 

In fact, Mike, I would say that to respect ones enemies, is to give him one more weapon against you; and it will be the weapon by which he will defeat you.

 

Disrespect and arrogance are not synonymous; nor does one necessarily lead to the other.

 

One should never become arrogant in regards to ones enemies, for in that sense one may foster an overconfidence and brashness that can lead to the underestimation of the threat they pose. However, one should never, ever, respect their enemies, - for in doing so, you would be granting them a measure of moral sanction.

 

For example: During the Second World War, the NAZI’s were spoken of with a total disrespect and utter contempt; the images of their leaders were caricaturized, their statements and writings belittled, and their regime was loathed and considered beyond the pale of human decency. And yet, during the war with the Axis powers, at no time did our nation ever underestimate the grave threat posed by their military. So much so, that in many instances the United States military was somewhat overly cautious in its conduct of the war.  So while it was proper to be weary of, and acknowledge, German military prowess and the genius of some of their Generals; this was a “respect” within a very limited and highly specific context.

 

But within the greater overall context of our enemy as a whole (morally and ideologically), the Nazi's were unworthy of even a modicum of respect, and our ridicule and contempt towards them was wholly proper. And the same should apply to our enemies today, regardless of whether it's some bearded low-life Koran thumper - intent on blowing up buildings, or the crack-head next door - intent on robbing your home.

 

George

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 10/21, 5:12am)




Post 5

Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 1:06amSanction this postReply
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hmmm?

My last post reminds me exactly why the United States is losing the war against the Islamo-Fascist.

George




Post 6

Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 3:53amSanction this postReply
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Ahhhh - nothing like a reality check, huh.....



Post 7

Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 6:12amSanction this postReply
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C'mon, how old is Freeman Dyson? You can't take anything said by people this old seriously, can you? ;-)
(Edited by Hong Zhang on 10/21, 6:12am)




Post 8

Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 6:35amSanction this postReply
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Can anyone name a single instance in history where the Dyson proposition actually led to a mutually beneficial reconciliation between enemies?

I cannot think of one.

If Dyson wants us to take his suggestion seriously, he had jolly well better ground his otherwise floating abstraction with some credible concretes.




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Post 9

Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 11:18amSanction this postReply
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George,

I said:

"In the sense that to disrespect them is to underestimate them."

You said: "Mike, I cannot disagree more." And then:

"One should never become arrogant in regards to ones enemies, for in that sense one may foster an overconfidence and brashness that can lead to the underestimation of the threat they pose."

Hmm. I don't know why I involve myself in these conversations.

In the Freeman Dysons quote I see "dealing with them effectively" as killing them when necessary. Would you like his quote better if he said "We should understand our enemies better in order to kill them more effectively."? He may have indeed meant that but for whatever reason was not willing to state it so openly. In fighting and physics it is necessary to be objective, to be prepared, and to have respect for the facts. As in respect for reality in order to deal with it. Remember the "benevolent universe"?

I don't want to engage further in the semantics of the word "respect".



Post 10

Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 4:23pmSanction this postReply
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Right after 9-11 some Republican talking head said something about how brave the hijackers were, and that we would have to be at least as brave as them. He was trounced on for a week for the wording of his statement. Just apply the same idea to grizzly bears. If one is walking through the woods in Alaska, should one not respect them?

?



Post 11

Sunday, October 22, 2006 - 12:12amSanction this postReply
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It's funny - "respect them as humans" and "he's only human" are about equally as meaningless and have almost opposite meanings. One giving a person dignity and rights, the other giving the person fallabilities and foibles.



Post 12

Sunday, October 22, 2006 - 2:37pmSanction this postReply
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Your point that one ought to reserve their respect for the virtuous, and withhold resepct from the viscious, is valid and important. Surely, much of the prattle we hear about "respecting our enemies" flows from the moral nihilism that dominates thinking today.

However, in one narrow sense Dyson's point is valid (although Dyson might not think along these lines). The murderous thugs running rampant over the killing fields of the Middle East do have a legitimate political grievance against American and British military meddling in that part of the world since World War One. I refer specifically to hundreds of thousands of innocent people who have been murdered, or whose lives have been shattered, by the force of our military adventuring and by the sanctions formerly imposed on Iraq.

I don't imagine that the grievances cited by Muslim savages are necessarily valid--the notion that western oil companies unjustly exploited "their oil" prior to nationalization lacks merit, for example--but I'm sure the widespread suffering imposed by the last two Gulf Wars tops their list of complaints.

In this narrow sense, one ought to respect that they have legitimate and gravely important grievances against the US government. One also ought to condemn their vicious campaign of murder, as well as their broader political program of unrelenting merciless collectivism.




Post 13

Sunday, October 22, 2006 - 4:56pmSanction this postReply
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I am not buying into this rationalization of terrorism, not for a nano-second. Actually, judging by Islamic Imperialism, A History (Yale UP, 2006) by Efraim Karsh, the imperial ambitions of Islam go back to about 630 AD and have never, never abated. Of course, this and that can pour some fuel on those fires but the fires have been there all along. 



Post 14

Monday, October 23, 2006 - 7:22amSanction this postReply
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Yes, but the imperial ambitions of imperialists go back much further than that. The neo-cons are just the heirs of Julius Caesar and the Spartans. Sometimes imperialism is religious. Sometimes it's motivated by the desire for loot. But it's always violent.




Post 15

Monday, October 23, 2006 - 9:46amSanction this postReply
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I've read good reviews of Efraim Karsh's book. Has anyone read it?



Post 16

Monday, October 23, 2006 - 6:58pmSanction this postReply
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"I've read good reviews of Efraim Karsh's book. Has anyone read it?" I am reading it now and it is very good, indeed.





Post 17

Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 1:03pmSanction this postReply
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"The neo-cons are just the heirs of Julius Caesar and the Spartans."

Is this a quote from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion? Or the Malleus Maleficarum? Or that notorious hoax, the Necronomicon (not to be confused with the authoritative Egyptian Book of the Dead)?


(Edited by Ted Keer
on 10/25, 1:09pm)




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Post 18

Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 10:21amSanction this postReply
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It's one of my many original quotes. An early American neo-con Alexander Hamilton once said that "the greatest man that ever lived was Julius Caesar." This story is recounted by Thomas Jefferson. During Hamilton's contemptible life, he promoted a war with France (which didn't happen) and massive corporate welfare projects like the Bank of the United States.




Post 19

Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 6:49pmSanction this postReply
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Although I have to take exception with the description of Alexander Hamilton as a "neo-con" simply on the grounds of its being an anachronism, (like calling Aristotle a Scholastic,) and I find the term neo-con itself to be little more informative than a simple term of abuse, I must agree with the implied negative assessment. Like Andrew Jackson, Teddy Roosevelt, and Woodrow Wilson, Hamilton has always enjoyed a much higher reputation than he deserved. (Indeed, a positive reputation which should have been a negative one.) While the other three "fascists of the middle," as I would prefer to call them, each have had their detractors, Hamilton still seems to be relatively unbesmirched of reputation. Perhaps this is because, thank God, Hamilton never became president.

Back to the thread, do we, or do we not properly "respect" grizzlies, tigers and great whites, or is the use of that term in such cases mistaken? And if it is not mistaken when applied to beasts, can it not be properly used for savages?

Ted Keer



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