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Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 2:11pmSanction this postReply
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Tibor, this was an interesting subject, though I arrive at a different conclusion. I believe most Objectivists would agree that one of the few legitimate roles of government is to enforce contracts. Since advertising is typically an oral or written promise to deliver a product or service for a set a amount of money, it follows that it is a legitimate function of government to ensure that what individuals advertise, they also deliver. To advertise one thing, and to deliver another can be (with some exceptions) measured accurately by an unbiased observer, and determined to be in accordance with the promise or not. Railing against government because they enforce enforceable contracts (a promise to deliver a tangible service/product for said money) and don’t enforce unenforceable contracts (an ideological or religious promise) is absurd. One must draw a line between what the government is competently able to and ought to enforce, versus what would be enforced only for political gain, and advertising falls into the former category.




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Post 1

Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 8:58pmSanction this postReply
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Advertising amounts to a "come on," a promotional effort to entice folks to take an interest in one's goods or services. There are no promises there. Like ornaments that adorn someone so as to entice others to take a closer look, nothing is contracted for.  So, at most, it is immoral to include falsehoods, but that's no more prohibitable than falsehoods are in romance, when people flirt or attempt to seduce. Wrong, yes, but not illegal, in a free society.



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Friday, June 22, 2007 - 10:42amSanction this postReply
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A food manufacturer, Just For Babies, advertises that its product, Baby-Safe-Formula, is a safe and effective substitute for mothers who can't breast feed, and that it has been approved by the FDA for such use and is used in 1000s of hospitals in the U.S.. These claims are also printed in advertisements on the cans. Based on the marketing brochure, a hospital administrator signs a contract that stipulates her hopsital will buy 100,000 cans of Baby-Drink over the next two months, though the contract doesn't stipulate the use or ingredients of Baby-Safe-Formula- only the name brand of the product, the price, quantity and shipping dates. The true contents of the cans include water whitened with food coloring agents, though the advertisements list ingredients including milk and vitamins. As a result, 200 babies die in two weeks feeding on what the hospital thought was specialized baby formula.

Based on your limited conception of a contract, the only thing Just For Babies need say in court is that the contract the hospital and manufacturer signed didn't stipulate the contents of Baby-Safe-Formula whatsoever and that the advertisements are not promises of the attributes of the delivered product. This is you defending Just For Babies in court as its chief marketing officer: "The hospital administrator is to blame for the deaths because she fell for our "come-ons" in our advertisments on the cans and in the brochures we mailed to her office and didn't eventually test what was delivered to her in an independent laboratory. In no way do these marketing materials make us guilty- at most, we have a moral, but not a legal obligation to delivery what we advertise, since you can't really call all those come-ons "promises" or "assurances". Only the signed contract was our promise, and nowhere does the contract even stipulate the ingredients, let alone effectiveness, of Baby-Safe-Formula. If the administrator were smart, she would have asked the contract to stipulate that we deliver what we advertised- she ought to be fired for such incompetence! Our advertising claims of safety and effectiveness merit no more legal action than a man lying to his wife about how many women he's slept with. I urge the court to dismiss this case."

Any court in any civilized nation on the face of the Earth during any time period would, at best, laugh the argument off the record, and at worst, hang the marketing officer responsible for the misleading advertisements. In this situation, and with a very clean conscience, I would opt for the latter course.




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Friday, June 22, 2007 - 1:52pmSanction this postReply
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"Based on the marketing brochure, a hospital administrator signs a contract that stipulates her hospital will buy 100,000 cans of Baby-Drink over the next two months, though the contract doesn't stipulate the use or ingredients of Baby-Safe-Formula- only the name brand of the product, the price, quantity and shipping dates [my emphasis]."  It is not based on this that the contract should be signed but on having investigated the come-on and learned that the producer-seller does indeed promise the goods are reliable.  The market brochure is not a promissory note. It is a promotional device. 
       When an ad depicts people who use a tooth paste as happily married, it is not a promise that using the product will produce happy marriages. Anyone who thinks so doesn't understand advertising. Whatever happened to the idea, "Let the buyer beware?" Of course, some ads may contain serious promises--the context will establish this. But that is not what advertising is about, as advertising.




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Friday, June 22, 2007 - 4:04pmSanction this postReply
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I'm no lawyer, but I'd say it's safe to assume the Truth in Advertising law deals more with tangible and verifiable claims like whether, in reality, a certain brand of toothpaste contains the expensive whitening agent the advertisement claims it contains, as opposed to the government investigating the divorce rate among Colgate users who read their advertisement in Red Book magazine.

 

You wrote: “It is not based on this that the contract should be signed but on having investigated the come-on and learned that the producer-seller does indeed promise the goods are reliable.  The market brochure is not a promissory note. It is a promotional device.” Actually, the marketing brochure is a promissory statement and a promotional device- you act as though the two are mutually exclusive. Often, but not always, the promotional content of an advertisement is precisely the explanation of the product’s benefits to its audience. Advertisers must keep in line when it comes to factual information precisely because it is viewed as a promise- and if they factually misrepresent a verifiable claim to boost sales, they know that their swindled customers have recourse to the law- this is Capitalism at work, ensuring that the information that leads to a transaction is accurate. To deny that a promise is a promise, or to say that two parties to a transaction ought not be honest in exchanging critical information relevant to a transaction, is an affront to the morality of Capitalism at its very roots. Capitalism only works when people are honest in their transactions- or when the law allows recourse for people who have been lied to- including lies in advertisements.




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Friday, June 22, 2007 - 5:21pmSanction this postReply
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So now I see--this is a positivist view of the nature of advertising. What public policy and the law state goes. What about a rational, pre-legal, understanding of advertising and marketing, based on reason and ethics?



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Friday, June 22, 2007 - 5:42pmSanction this postReply
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Not at all, Dr. Machan.  Scott RM said only what is basically true about capitalist morality as we understand it.  He is saying that fraud is wrong.  Your essay did not address that, nor did it need to. 
 
Personally, I question the validity of the claim of "fraud."  I tell you that I have the smartest dog in the world and he's yours for $100.  You find one smarter.  Do you have a claim?  I think not.  Prima facie, you have a long row to hoe to make a case that you were cheated. 
 
You know the one about the country cousin and the city cousin?  The city cousin is visting the farm and is going on about how dopey it is and how boring and how much better the city is and on and on and one day, the country cousin takes him for a walk in the woods and he's complaining up a storm and the country cousin says, "Look, you are obviously the dumbest thing since rocks and we put up with out of pity for your low intelligence."  The city boy is thunderstruck.  The country boy rattles off all kinds of rural arcana about acres and sections and mllet and rye and hogs and pigs and says that he can make the city boy smart too.  He reaches down the ground and picks up a few pellets.  "These are smart pills," he says.  The city boy pops them in his mouth and starts to chew -- and he spits them out.  "They taste like shit!" he says, spitting and hacking.  "See, you're getting smarter already."
 
Fraud?
 
But Scott's point is well made and I cannot rigorously argue against it.  Country cousins aside, when I place an order with you for permalloy, inconel, monel or incoloy by the ton, your advertising brochure had better be your word of honor ... even if you are allowed to claim that these are the greatest alloys in the world...




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Friday, June 22, 2007 - 7:03pmSanction this postReply
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"Fraud" is a legal concept--it means violating a contractual agreement. (As one source the Online Etymology Dictionary states: "fraud: criminal deception," 1345, from O.Fr. fraude, from L. fraudem (nom. fraus) 'deceit, injury.' The noun meaning 'impostor, humbug' is attested from 1850. Pious fraud 'deception practiced for the sake of what is deemed a good purpose' is from 1563."
(Edited by Machan on 6/22, 7:07pm)




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Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 2:55pmSanction this postReply
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There was (and is, actually, as it still has not been finally concluded by a long shot) an interesting case locally in the OC that Tibor is no doubt somewhat familiar with.  I refer to the infamous case of Anthony L. Hargis & Co., for decades a mainstay of local libertarian activism and networking.

Hargis, a radical libertarian, had founded a free market bank, in essence, as a gold depository, around 1976.  I was one of his first customers.  At the point that the feds shut him down, in 2004, and siezed his assets, without ever charging anyone with a crime, he had allegedly several millions of dollars invested by over one thousand customers, some of whom had their life savings in his depository.  I lost about $8,000.00, personally.

Hargis was put in prison for six months for refusing to divulge his customer's private information (which he had promised would remain private unless there was a legal subpeona or search warrant), under a law passed in early 2004 that allows virtually any federal agency to demand complete customer records from virtually any U.S. business, without specifying a reason, and without a warrant, subpoena, or judge's order.  (To fight terrorism, of course.)  I showed the brief article, describing the then proposed legislation, that appeared in the OC Register to Hargis in late 2003, but he did not take it seriously.  BAD mistake.

The judge alleged told Hargis that the real reason for his prosecution was that he was mixing commercial and political speech.  On his now-defunct website for ALH&Co., Hargis had included articles denouncing the Federal Reserve System, and the U.S. government, and advertising a number of his essays and books for sale.  This is apparently verboten in the U.S. now. 

In fact, it is reported that the judge told Hargis that if he just took down those offensive postings, that no prosecution would take place.

Note that Hargis's business, a Massachusetts Trust, had a set of founding documents and related literature describing the purpose of the business, which was, as best I recall, explicitly to help promote a free society, among other statements that would have made it clear to anyone that any shareholder who bothered to read the Trust docoments would assume that the business would actively promote those and related ideas.  I.e., the political speech that Anthony posted on his web site was in fact an essential part of the business he was conducting, and exactly what his shareholders expected of ALH&Co.

So, Anthony was ordered to alter the website, essentially telling visitors that he had been completely wrong in his political beliefs.

Meanwhile, without ever arresting, prosecuting or convicting any of ALH&Co.'s customers, shareholders or sub-contractors, the IRS moved in, alleging that everyone was a tax resistor, without naming any specifics or providing any evidence, and siezed everything that ALH&Co. owned, leaving the customers with nothing.

See: http://philosborn.joeuser.com/index.asp?c=1&AID=26478
http://philosborn.joeuser.com/index.asp?AID=86923

or google on Anthony L. Hargis.




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Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 2:16pmSanction this postReply
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One  then should hunt down those specific dogs and terminate them, exacting the due justice from them first....   at the least exposing them on the net as the moral degenerate beings they showed themselves to be....



Post 10

Monday, June 25, 2007 - 5:26pmSanction this postReply
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Personally, I see little difference, if any, between personal speech and business speech. Both are used to promote something, whether it's yourself or your product. Now, if I go and promise something I can't deliver, I should be penalized if I take money or anything in advance for what I promise. Instead, what if I say something that's untrue, but take nothing, then I'm just a jackass for saying anything, and it's not fraud at all. The difference between the two there is that one actually does harm by fraud in that I actually stole something (money, food, whatever...) from you as a person (or a group of people) and used speech as a device to exact this theft, by contrast the other simply wastes the time of the person(s) listening and the one "speaking (or writing, or making a TV ad, etc...)." So, to make a distinction between so-called commercial/corporate speech and personal speech is arbitrary, and fairly dangerous in my opinion. What if a CEO decides s/he doesn't like the way the government is doing something and speaks out. Is that commercial speech because that CEO said it? At what time can said CEO say anything without it being called commercial/corporate speech? Sheesh, this really makes it hard to make a distinction for me, because by that logical extension I shouldn't be saying anything here or anywhere since I too work for a corporation, therefore this entire post could logically fall under commercial/corporate speech laws/codes! Oh my... o_O

-- Brede
(Edited by Bridget Armozel
on 6/25, 5:27pm)




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Monday, June 25, 2007 - 6:20pmSanction this postReply
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Getting down to brass tacks, Brede Armozel suggested, "simply wastes the time of the person(s) listening and the one "speaking (or writing, or making a TV ad, etc...)."
Would that not be a form of fraud?  Suppose, presenting myself as a regional sales manager for Polychrome, I make an appointment with you on the pretext of having a solution to a technical problem.  But I don't.  I'm just jiving you for my own amusement.  You cannot recoup the hour you spent with me, the time is lost that could have been better invested in other things.  Is that not actionable?

What does my motive have to do with it?  (Contrary to popular misconception, criminal law does not care about motive.  Argue all you want, the fact is that the law ignores motive.)  So, if I "believe" that my Ghostcatcher 2000 is the machine you need, does that make a difference?  I have still stolen the irreplaceable time of your life.

Maybe in an Objectivist society, bullshit would be actionable.  That would mean that after his stellar stand-and-deliver was digested by the experts, Andrew Wiles would be thrown in jail. rather than being given a chance to prove his case.

Therefore -- and this is a conceptual leap, so taking a running start -- there is no such thing as fraud.  You pays your money and you makes your choices and there it ends.

Tibor Machan, Ph.D., declined the opportunity to address this.  He said that business speech should be protected.  What about fraud? asked Scott Richard Monroe and Dr. Machan accused him of "positivism" which is a stalinist (randoroid) response: you attack the ideology of the person, rather than actually answering the question.  The answer is that, heck, and darn and hell's bells, maybe there is no such thing as fraud.




Post 12

Monday, June 25, 2007 - 6:52pmSanction this postReply
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So, since I lied about intending to honor the contracts I signed, are they null and void from the start?  That contract to pay you for your time.  TOO BADDD.  i lied.  How is a contract supported without a prior non-contractual  understanding that we are telling the truth and will pay the consequences if it turns out to be otherwise?

Suppose I discover that the plane I'm on is not actually scheduled for a stopover at the place that I need to be...

So, I plant a note in the men's room reading "There's a BOMB on the plane," which I know will force the pilot to head for the nearest suitable airport, which is where I want to stop off, for the super latte the coffee shop serves there, knowing that the bomb search will give me time for refills.

Without introducing the concept of fraud (and, in fact, I have merely lied, right?), I have achieved a value for myself at great expense and possible hazard to many others.

"Without justice, there cannot be peace."

I would go to the other extreme, personally, and say that you are morally bound to speak the truth as you see it, under the implicit social contract that could be derived from an analysis of what explicit rules would be necessary for society to function and not degenerate into Hobbesian Battle Royalles. 

But then, of course, it isn't really the "lie" per se, that is the problem.  It's devaluing the other person's cognition, treating them as prey.  So, you have your stash for your cancer nausea under the seat and the cop asks you if you have any illegal substances in the vehicle...

Telling him the literal truth would involve conveying the message that "I am a criminal, deserving of arrest and prosecution."  Since you don't have the lifetime available to straighten out his head, and it's not your job anyway, you do the closest thing to the truth that you can...  You LIE! 

And the literal lie results in a cognitively better match between the cop's mind and reality than if you had told the literal truthe.




Post 13

Monday, June 25, 2007 - 7:49pmSanction this postReply
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Phil, you are getting warmer... warmer... warmer...

In the Anglo-American legal model -- the legal system of the most advanced, i.e., most nearly historically capitalistic societies -- we pass general laws that are enforced contextually by the courts.  We call it "bench-made law."

You are right: to prevent those injustices, we would need a "no lying in airliner restrooms" law and "no scribbling false notes" laws.  Here in Michigan, we have about forty kinds of larceny including these from Michigan Compiled Laws:
Section 750.357a Section Larceny of livestock.
Section 750.357b Section Committing larceny by stealing firearm of another person as felony; penalty.
Section 750.358 Section Larceny at a fire.
Section 750.359 Section Larceny from vacant dwelling.
Section 750.360 Section Larceny; places of abode, work, storage, conveyance, worship and other places.
Section 750.360a Section Electronic or magnetic theft detection; shielding merchandise prohibited; violation as crime.
Section 750.361 Section Larceny or maliciously removing journal bearings or brasses.
Section 750.362 Section Larceny by conversion.
Section 750.362a Section Larceny; rented motor vehicle, trailer or other tangible property; penalty.
Section 750.363 Section Larceny by false personation.
Section 750.364 Section Larceny from libraries.
Section 750.365 Section Larceny from car or persons detained or injured by accident.
Section 750.367 Section Taking or injuring trees, shrubs, vines, plants.
Section 750.367a Section Larceny of rationed goods, wares and merchandise.

Generally speaking, in most rational societies, the situation is different from this.  Instead in rational societies, the jury and the judge balance each other.  The jury represents the common view and the judge represents the wise decision.  Laws are stated as general principles and enforcement is contextual.  In business management, it is called "the contingency approach."  There is no one right way to do things.  We have  principles, of course, but applications depend on knowing who wants what.  That takes negotiation.  In law, we negotiate when the police bring a "case" to the prosecutor and the prosecutor says, "Your boy only stole 11 bottles and everyone knows you can't make a case out of 11 bottles."  So,the prosecutor is a check on the police.

People are not billiard balls.  You cannot forumlate some KE = 1/2 mv^2 and have it apply to all people in all contexts.  You can have A is A. That works.  But two steps beyond that, life gets complicated and it takes judgment to know right from wrong.




Post 14

Monday, June 25, 2007 - 8:37pmSanction this postReply
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Making an appointment is the start of the contract, but it's not fraud to be bs a person. You just lose the option to continue onward. As for time, can you give me its currency, besides its measure? Clearly, to say you own time is silly. All you have to do is walk away if you find it to be silly or absurd to continue to listen to a person. You seem to make absurd claims, Michael, this is one of them, due to that there is no way for me to force you stay in that bs meeting. You could sue for lost time, but what judge and jury would award you anything beyond an apology? Consider this, if you could make it a crime for being stupid, absurd, and down right goofy, then everything a person does in some function could be called a crime by that you made it possible to wiggle any old thing in as one.

Definitions, Michael, are essential to any argument. Define fraud for me, and define damages. Lost time is not damages, we lose it everytime we have to go to the rest room, sleep, brush our teeth, and etc. And we even lose it on non-essentials like dealing with an obtuse supervisor, or an annoying relative that doesn't take a hint. But we never ever sue them, or call it a crime of fraud. We call it all sorts of things, but not that. Why? Because you can walk away, but if I take your money, your property, you can't walk away, you need it back. Time isn't a property of ownership, it's a property of matter. You just happen to be made of matter. Get use to it. And stop extending absurd claims to things you cannot hope to defend.

-- Brede



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Post 15

Monday, June 25, 2007 - 8:42pmSanction this postReply
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Is anyone here really expecting me to reply to something like this: "Tibor Machan, Ph.D., declined the opportunity to address this.  He said that business speech should be protected.  What about fraud? asked Scott Richard Monroe and Dr. Machan accused him of "positivism" which is a stalinist (randoroid) response: you attack the ideology of the person, rather than actually answering the question"?  I have better things to do. I will look for forums where people have a civilized tone, not throw around insults and ad hominems.  (I declined nothing, nada! And if you want to know about Stalinism, just ask me--I lived under the thumb of the bastard until I was 14 and recall it well and it wasn't anything like what I do in these discussions.) 



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Post 16

Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 5:19amSanction this postReply
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Bridget asserted: Consider this, if you could make it a crime for being stupid, absurd, and down right goofy, then everything a person does in some function could be called a crime by that you made it possible to wiggle any old thing in as one.
( Isn't everyone selfish?  )

Working from first principles sometimes contravenes common sense, but that is only because the "common" sense is often wrong.   I am not asserting, Brede, I am asking.  What if...  what if...  Only then can we get beyond what we were raised to believe and understand objective truth. 

Time is all you have -- and you do not have much, maybe 100 years at best.  "I came here to say that I do not recognize the right of any man to one minute of my life."  Your time is your life. We engage in trade to extend that time.  Every minute you save, every convenience you enjoy pushes back that last moment.  Every whining looter with a scheme is out to rob you of your life, one minute or hour or day at a time.

So, anyone who wastes your time kills you in a little way.  Should that not be actionable?




Post 17

Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 5:50amSanction this postReply
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No one is coercing anyone here (or elsewhere) to read anything. It is one's choice, just as no one is coercing people to respond to advertising.  So if there is  intrusive time-wasting being done, it is done here by the authors of inputs, not the readers who have the liberty to spend their time as they wish. 
(Edited by Machan on 6/26, 8:06am)




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Post 18

Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 7:44pmSanction this postReply
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I work for a Chinese/Taiwanese company - for the past 16 YEARS yet.  Chinese business is about as cuthroat as you can get without simply self-detructing.  When there were surpluses of great employees looking for work, the company president would eagerly spend all morning reading resumes, which came in by the thousands, for a fifteen person operation.

He would then pick the people from whom he might learn the most, such as some guy with a Masters in Electrical Engineering, and spend a couple of weeks picking his brains, while assuring him of the GREAT future with the company while he worked for $6.50 per hour entering customer data or loading trucks.  Then, at the 90 day point, when, by contract the company had agreed to hire or not, and, if hiring, give the poor shmuch a $0.50 raise, the president would invariably tell the guy that his work was "UNSATISFACTORY."  After all the promises (which themselves were generally lies, as those jobs were handled by Chinese back at the main facility in Taiwan) and all the great talks about new technology, the guy would be offered the chance to stay on if he was willing to work indefinitely at $6.50 per hour.

I could tell many similar stories, all true, about how the company president schemed to steal software and technology from American companies, and how he hornswoggled magazines into printing great reviews of his products and then cancelled his ads at the very last moment and on and on.

On the other hand, the company is religious in its devotion to its customers, who are not end users, but dealers and distributors, because they know just how far one bad story carries.  When they got into an entirely new line of products a few years back, with ZERO experience in a field that was quite hi-tech, it looked like a slam dunk that they would fail miserably.  Instead, after a somewhat slow start, because they invariably stood behind their product, no matter how stupidly the customer had been in destroying it, they are one of the top rank producers in the field now.

Honesty pays.  No matter how much the company might make on a single fraudulent deal that screwed a customer, they could count on that story being told and retold, and their customers would lose faith (er, maybe a poor choice of words in this forum - but, what the hey?) in them, and that would be the beginning of the end, as there are always competitors out there willing to undercut them in order to divert future sales.  But the fly-by-night outfits end up usually screwing their customers.

My point being that whether the governing legal system recognizes fraud or lies as significant, the market certainly does.




Post 19

Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 5:14amSanction this postReply
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Phil Osborne: "My point being that whether the governing legal system recognizes fraud or lies as significant, the market certainly does."
That might be all it takes. Historian Richard Hofstadter wrote The American Political Tradition.  The title was "The" not "A" or "Some... Traditions."  Hofstadter wrote about "...shared a belief in the rights of property, the philosophy of economic individualism, the value of competition… [T]hey have accepted the economic virtues of a capitalist culture as necessary qualities of man." (Wikipedia). 
However, Hofstadter also included government regulation of business as part of that tradition.  Government regulation prevents unfair competition, mitigates the effects of economic power and  limits the dangers of financial combinations.  At least, that was his theory and Milton Friedman felt the same way. 
We can see the fallacy in that.  That is the reason why I suggest that if the market has a remedy, then there is no need for government intervention.  Perhaps there is no such crime as "fraud." 

Looking at it from the another angle, as Bridget's last post implies, perhaps the responsibility lies with the listener.  We cannot be protected from our own stupidity. 
Phil agan: " ...  and spend a couple of weeks picking his brains, while assuring him of the GREAT future with the company."
I consider that a form of fraud and it happened to me ... once.  In a job interview, I gave a presentation on what great documentation really is.  I think they just wanted to know what to require from their current technical writer.




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