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Post 0

Thursday, July 5, 2007 - 6:01amSanction this postReply
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Like much else that Professor Machan posts here, the lead essay evidences no analytical thought, but only repeats glib generalities known in advance to be approved of by the readership.  The lead essay is an example middle-of-the-road libertarian sentiment. 

It is easy to quibble with the sophomorisms.  "...throughout most of human history a great deal of wealth was not created by those who held it but confiscated from those who created it, too often at the point of a gun."  Guns did not exist for most of human history.  If those who "hold" wealth do nothing with it, is it still "wealth"?  That is an interesting question. Following the so-called "Panic of 1857" the Chemical Bank stopped paying interest on demand accounts.  The bank considered the cost of storage and delivery to be greater than the utility of the cash on hand.  Was this gold "wealth" or not?  If the bank lent it out, then, it was, even though it was "held" and not "paid for."  On the other hand, a Dark Ages warlord with a pit full of Roman plateware certainly held gold and silver, but was that "wealth"?  That paradigm, I think, was Dr. Machan's point -- an easy one to accept, but again, without insight and poorly stated, something I expect to read from a second-year college student, rather than from an emeritus professor of philosophy.

Dr. Machan wrote: Those who wrote the Declaration of Independence put the idea of monarchy to rest, buried it, in fact, because they realized it was based on a vicious misunderstanding of human nature. It rested on the notion that some people are good enough to govern others without the consent of those others. This idea of innate elitism was supposed to be abandoned in America. Lincoln put the point in crystal clear terms: "No man is good enough to govern another man, without that other's consent."
Again, this might be fine for a high school senior competing in a contest to write a patriotic essay.  However, the fact is that George III ruled by agreement with Parliament.  His grandfather had been hired.  His father and he both were invested by Parliament before they could assume office.  The complaints of the colonists were, in fact, two-fold.  The king had overstepped his authority as they understood it from the Bill of Rights of 1689.  More to the point, they were being denied their rights as Englishment to elect representatives to Parliament.  That was the deeper issue.

Moreover, today, in law, we do not recognize the right of one person grant privilege of assault to another.  Specifically, once the police are called, the battered spouse cannout say, "It's all right."  This came up in a landmark court case in which a battered spouse attempted -- on appeal! -- to claim just that.  If that makes perfect sense to you -- and it shouldL you cannot consent to your own assault -- then, what can be the "consent of the governed"?  Can we ever give consent to another person to rob us... to "rule" us?  Dr. Machan seems not to understand the inherent contradiction in his bland statement.

The Declaration of Independence set down the reasons why some American colonists wanted to "alter or abolish" their government.  It had nothing to do with "goodies from the federal government."  In fact, it has been cogently argued by some, such as Charles Beard, that if the so-called "Founding Fathers" had actually enjoyed more of that regal largess themselves, they would not have revolted.  It is an interesting theory.  Perhaps Dr. Machan would like to address it... after really doing some research.




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Post 1

Thursday, July 5, 2007 - 9:25amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Marotta seems obsessed with trying to get me unglued.  What a pointless, unproductive preoccupation that is! (I thought he saw no profit in discussing stuff with me, yet he keeps commenting on my stuff. Go figure.)




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Post 2

Thursday, July 5, 2007 - 4:25pmSanction this postReply
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Michael, there are other sites that specialize in people attacking their betters to try to look good themselves. If you feel the need, go there instead.

You're welcome to argue with Tibor's points, but you've been going way beyond that, being intentionally rude and insulting. I'm tired of your harassment and stalking. Tibor is a valued contributor to this site. If you don't like it, you don't have to interact with him. But enough is enough.





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Post 3

Thursday, July 5, 2007 - 5:36pmSanction this postReply
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I agree wholeheartedly with Joe.

Ethan




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Post 4

Thursday, July 5, 2007 - 9:48pmSanction this postReply
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Some of Michael's questions may be wrongheaded, but are not necessarily entirely meritless. It is my understanding from reading other threads that Michael was frustrated with Dr. Machan's tendency not to respond to him or to do so abruptly or annoyedly. I don't think this justifies Michael's continual goading sarcasm - especially at the top of a new thread. Perhaps he could restate his better questions in a non-hostile form and get better answers? I think that a lot of the hostility here is due to frustration elsewhere. Michael is certainly no Orthodox Objectivist, and I find he is often quite wrong. But he is often wrong at length, in depth, and in an interesting and considered way.

Ted



Post 5

Friday, July 6, 2007 - 10:55amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Keer, indeed, I do not respond to insulting posts in a civilized tone--those sending insults do not deserve that from me.  However, I have always responded promptly and fully to those who send me objections and criticism, etc., in a civil tone.



Post 6

Friday, July 6, 2007 - 11:13amSanction this postReply
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I have found both of you to be quality contributors, and the ball is in Michael's court. If I were him, I'd repeat the point that George III was "hired" by the British Parliament. That was a very interesting and valid point - and also one to which I know how I would counter-respond. Michael has the good grace to write long, supported posts even in an unpopular cause, and he can do this without having to make the issue personal. I'd like to see him do so, and just wanted to make it clear that although his first post on this thread came out swinging with sarcasm off the bat, and others were right to call him on it, his actual points were worth discussing. I am not his agent, so I'll retire from the fray for now,

Ted



Post 7

Friday, July 6, 2007 - 1:02pmSanction this postReply
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So if parliament hires the king, does that make the king a valid ruler of millions of people who had nothing to do with the deal struck?  I don't get it. In a feudal system numerous arrangements are made within the the ruling class but they still remain the unauthorized, illegitimate ruling class. 
         Theoretically, at least, the American founders abolished the ruling class, period, by affirming that every human individual has the unalienable basic rights...etc., etc., and that governments are instituted to secure those rights, period.
         Sure, I repeated points in my Fourth of July column--and that's what it was, a column, not a scholarly thesis--others in the classical liberal tradition have made, probably more eloquently than I, but then, as George Orwell noted, "Sometimes the first duty of intelligent men is the restatement of the obvious." 




Post 8

Friday, July 6, 2007 - 3:09pmSanction this postReply
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     Uh-h, getting back to the point of the thread...

     'Why' are we still celebrating the 4th? Regardless that our present cultural values are almost radically different from the history of what the 4th is...supposedly...about?

     Nostalgia of what our country once was (and no longer is), plus cultural habituation to our cultural establishment of our present citizens' historically-ignorant but emotionally-satisfying annual routines about the 'birth' of our country's orientation to (can one say, for then-times,  individual?) 'freedom'...whatever that last word means to anyone nowadays.

LLAP
J:D




Post 9

Friday, July 6, 2007 - 3:21pmSanction this postReply
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Well, "we" are celebrating it for its excellent ideas and in the hope they might get revived if we all pitch in hard and steady and smart enough. Or that is why I am celebrating it and would assume at least some folks here at RoR do too.



Post 10

Friday, July 6, 2007 - 4:03pmSanction this postReply
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Tibor,

Remember, I didn't say that I was making that argument myself, but rather that I have a counter-argument to it. Since you have decided to address it, while Mike hasn't, here's a refutation of Mike's assertion, from the Declaration of Independence itself:

"He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved representative houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the legislative powers, incapable of annihilation, have returned to the people at large for their exercise; the state remaining in the meantime exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within."

The answer to that specific objection of Mike's is that even if British King served at the pleasure of the British Parliament, he did not rule us with the consent of ours.

A belatedly Happy July 4th!

(PS, Each of the three sanctions I received for my original post so far was of four or less points - i.e., MEM, with his five point sanctions, has not sanctioned me here - that is to say, I am not working as anyone's proxy.)



Post 11

Saturday, July 7, 2007 - 4:49pmSanction this postReply
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You are right, Mr. Marotta. It is easy to quibble. However, it is not so easy to grasp principles and how one goes about applying them to complex reality.



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Post 12

Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 6:46pmSanction this postReply
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MEM,

It is easy to quibble with the sophomorisms.  "...throughout most of human history a great deal of wealth was not created by those who held it but confiscated from those who created it, too often at the point of a gun."  Guns did not exist for most of human history.
MEM, you misinterpreted Professor Machan's words. He didn't say that throughout most of human history a great deal of wealth was confiscated at the point of a gun. Do you see this now? I guess it is not so "easy to quibble" now, is it (when others hold you to your written words)?

Moreover, today, in law, we do not recognize the right of one person [to] grant privilege of assault to another.  Specifically, once the police are called, the battered spouse canno[ ]t say, "It's all right."  This came up in a landmark court case in which a battered spouse attempted -- on appeal! -- to claim just that.  If that makes perfect sense to you -- and it should [(that] you cannot consent to your own assault [ ) ] -- then, what can be the "consent of the governed"?  Can we ever give consent to another person to rob us... to "rule" us?  Dr. Machan seems not to understand the inherent contradiction in his bland statement.
MEM, you seem not to "understand the inherent contradiction" in your own reasoning. You do this via the equivocation of any and all government (even solely rights-protecting ones) with assault. How in the world can an objective, transparent, rights-protecting rule of law ever be considered an assault?! An assault on whom? An assault on criminals (rights violators)?!

You also equivocate governing with ruling. But they're not the same thing. In fact, it's this kind of sloppy equivocation that I'd expect from a "high school senior" -- to borrow some choice words from you.

;-)

The Declaration of Independence set down the reasons why some American colonists wanted to "alter or abolish" their government.  It had nothing to do with "goodies from the federal government." 
And that was Professor Machan's main point (i.e., the theme of this column of his). Did you just manage to miss that central part of this piece?? When you can take someone's theme, and restate its truth as if you are arguing against it (simply because it came from another's mouth), then it sure seems that you are going off the deep end.

Quibbling isn't that easy, MEM. At least not around here, where folks get called-out when they are wrong.


Ed


p.s. I loved the column, Tibor. I found it uplifting, focused precisely on great values, and intelligently conveyed.






Post 13

Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 3:53pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks. (I am in transit for the next 8 weeks, so it is gratifying to see that my points are well understood by quite a few folks.)



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