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Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 8:31amSanction this postReply
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Bill this is an incredibly important article. So often we are told that this or that is our 'right' when no one is really able (or willing) to define what rights are.

Do I have a right to healthcare? NO!
Do I have a right to a home? NO!
Do I have a right to a job? NO!

I do have a right to my mind and the things which my mind can create. Once that has been secured all these other 'rights' take care of themselves. If I wish to use the production of my mind to purchase healthcare or a home or a job I may. However I have no right to expect those things simply because I exist.



Post 1

Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 8:05pmSanction this postReply
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As usual well written, excellently argued, and brilliantly presented. Thank you Bill!



Post 2

Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 10:16pmSanction this postReply
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And thank you, John, for the fine compliment!

Too bad Jordan is no longer around to present the other side, eh? I was hoping to hear from him in response to my article. He did indicate that he was interested in this subject, although I don't think he had his ideas very well thought out. In any case, he probably got tired of all the posts he had to reply to. Too many people to answer.

- Bill



Post 3

Saturday, July 28, 2007 - 1:08pmSanction this postReply
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Since Jordan isn't here, and my ideas are probably even less well thought out, I thought it mandatory that I jump in.

The only issue that threatens to undermine this whole line argumentation is that of the origin of property itself.  Property implies that something which had previously been in the public domain is now private.  A property right is typically defined as the right to the exclusive use and disposal of something.  And, the term "right" itself means a moral/ethical sanction against interference with one's actions - in the case of property, against interference with your exclusive use and disposal of said.

There is no disagreement here as to the validity of property rights.  But consider that under the Goode and Ancient Common Law, a bastion of private property rights, it was still recognized that property was a contract between the individual who took what had been public and made it private, and society, both local and (potentially) universal, which had a prior interest as well as a potential future interest in that property.

Under the Common Law, then, there were such exceptions to the "exclusive use" clause as the right of passage.  A person might buy some land and then erect a wall or fence or divert a stream, blocking what had been a trade road, and then charge extreme toll to allow traders to pass, citing his "exclusive use" right.  The Common Law did not allow this, as the property contract could only rightfully apply to the actual signatories, explicit and implicit through participation in the legal establishment. 

People might actually be using and periodically improving a trail or road or stream for their specific use as a transport facilitator.  Those people then had a prior claim which the conversion of the area into private property could not automatically obviate.  On the other hand, someone could in fact improve on a road or stream and potentially charge for the use of their improvements, but if they charged a fortune for the simple act of removing a single rock, then the Common Law would likely throw their claim out and award damages to those forced to pay the fee.  I.e., rights in property start as a community standards issue and remain such in many respects.

Some people would argue that one has a perfect right to keep an AK47, or a 50 calibre machine gun or a nuclear weapon or nerve gas in their basement.  It is THEIR basement, after all.  However, this quickly falls under the aegis of the grounds for the original property claim and its legal recognition.  No one has a right to initiate force and the risk of aggression in the case of a basement nuke, for example, is just as real as aggression itself. 

We pay for that risk by means of bonds or insurance in the free market, and it is the exorbitant cost of paying the insurance on a basement nuke that would make it highly unlikely.  And, the insurance or its equivalent payment for risks imposed on ones neighbors would be mandatory in any survivable high-tech society.

Now how does all this apply to inter-racial prejudice, refusal of services and the like?  I certainly agree that a shop owner, an employer, etc., have the right to serve or employ who they choose.  However, when the basis for their discrimination becomes, in effect, a causus belli, creating a state of war between those who have acquired the societal sanction of exclusive use, and the class of those who would never have agreed to such a contract if they had known that they would be suddenly cut off from the use of what had been public, then one has to question the legal validity.

Is that sufficiently less well thought out?




Post 4

Saturday, July 28, 2007 - 3:08pmSanction this postReply
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Phil Osborn wrote,
There is no disagreement here as to the validity of property rights. But consider that under the Goode and Ancient Common Law, a bastion of private property rights, it was still recognized that property was a contract between the individual who took what had been public and made it private, and society, both local and (potentially) universal, which had a prior interest as well as a potential future interest in that property.
Well, I don't accept your premise that private property arises by virtue of a "contract" between the individual and society. Society does not exist as a moral agent that has "interests" and can make contracts with individuals. Society itself is simply a number of individuals who live and deal with each other in a given geographical area. When individuals acquire original property, they don't "take" it from "the public." The public didn't own it to begin with. Nobody did; it was either unowned natural resources, which are properly acquired by virtue of initial appropriation, or goods created by individual production. Once acquired, the owner has full rights of use and disposal, including the right to sell or dispose of the property as he or she chooses.

- Bill



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Post 5

Saturday, July 28, 2007 - 3:19pmSanction this postReply
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Yes, Phil Osborn, your post is sufficiently less well reasoned to muddy the waters further.

Your entire post has woven within it certain assumptions of tribalism that betray the deeper natural laws upon which Objectivism bases its theory of capitalism.  In other words, you start with the assumption that all property initially began as public property before title transfer to private entities.  By contrast, Objectivism treats natural resources as initially owned by no one and available to become privately owned on the basis of mixing mental and physical labor with those resources.

Even if a government takes an initial stab at dividing raw land into parcels and "selling" it to private entities, those private entities then have the right to dispose of those resources according to the reasoning of the individual private entities while paying appropriate fees to the government to defend those properties.

Because capitalism treats government's only proper role as the defense against physical force and fraud, even a tradition of de facto tribal public ownership with centuries of history behind it would necessarily give way to private ownership without restrictions such as the alleged "casus belli" anti-discrimination restrictions you describe.




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Post 6

Monday, July 30, 2007 - 3:52amSanction this postReply
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Bill: I thought this was an outstandingly well-written article with many apt quotes and citations I was unfamiliar with. It was a pleasure to read -- even tho' I knew as I read along that it was highly unlikely I would encounter a single point of significant disagreement within.

Possibly one other helpful way to look at today's civil rights issues is to simply observe what I consider to be the seven fundamental rights of man: life, liberty, property, privacy, bigotry, stupidity, and depravity. Probably everyone agrees with the first three: that no one or group or government can rightfully invade of degrade these three fundamental spheres. And almost all agree with the right to privacy: some strong legal protection against being surveyed or moderated by others while one is in one's various private realms.

But -- moving on to the more controversial rights five, six, and seven -- if all people were to openly and loudly say that they have a right to be racist, idiotic, and evil -- and that all do-gooders and social utopians need to largely shut the hell up -- then I think that would significantly help the arguments in your essay. The key point here is these are all our lives. We can use and misuse them -- successfully exploit or wantonly waste them -- absolutely as we please. No one has any kind of right to "improve" us as individuals nor "uplift" us as a society. The whole world needs to mind their own business -- in all their great saintliness and genius -- and let individuals live as they wish. This includes letting them indulge to the hilt any supposed  bigotry, stupidity, and depravity.

Everyone has infinite and unquestionable rights which can't be challenged by anyone else. The only restriction on human behavior and freedom which exists or even can exist is a prohibition on the obviously nonsensical and contradictory "right" to violate rights.         




Post 7

Monday, July 30, 2007 - 7:02pmSanction this postReply
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Luke, I am not pushing tribalism.  The fact is that every piece of property has legitimate prior claims to it.  The moon, taking a "far" fetched example, is used by billions of people for nighttime lighting, as well as profound environmental effects, mostly having to do with the tides.  There are scientists who argue that having a big moon was essential to the development of life.

So, assuming that nobody has made a personal property claim on the moon,* does that mean that any random person or visiting space alien could take it, claim it, and use it however they will, potentially destroying its benefits for all the people who have been enjoying them?  Consider that there is a NASA sponsored contest for the job of designing a "space elevator," now technically feasible with the advent of carbon nanotube fibers.  

*Actually, Moon Shop does have what appears to be a legally binding property claim on the moon, as well as Mars and several other heavenly bodies...

Since the moon rotates very slowly - once per orbit around the earth, such an elevator would probably have to be anchored at the poles, not geosynchronisly.  However, with the greatly shallower gravity well, one could relatively easily unravel the moon for component materials for constructing L5 habitats, power sats, etc.  Or, notice that the full moon looks amazingly to the naked eye like the radioactive hazard symbol - three triangles pointing toward the center, and it has been suggested that it might make a convenient radioactive waste dump, once we have a space elevator or other cheap means of getting material into space.

So, what about the rest of us, who will be impacted for positive or negative by the various proposed uses of this lifeless ball of rock?  We are already enjoying benefits.  If someone claims the moon as property, on the basis that nobody has made a prior private claim, then do we simply lose those benefits with no compensation?  Note that we're talking gigabucks here, either way.

Again, I'm all in favor of private property, so long as it doesn't equate to theft from those already using the object(s) in question.  The problem is where to draw the lines in an objective manner, so that property claims don't generate infinite transaction costs due to litigation resulting from real, imagined or fraudulent prior claims, as in the idiots who use environmental claims to stop any kind of development.




Post 8

Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 7:54amSanction this postReply
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Phil asked:
If someone claims the moon as property, on the basis that nobody has made a prior private claim, then do we simply lose those benefits with no compensation?
Yes.

Of course, "claim" is a tricky word here.  Much of "claim" amounts to an ability to "defend" that "claim" against the attempts of others to "steal" it.  However, assuming an entity has the ability to do that, then those who previously enjoyed unearned benefits from that property would no longer live as "free riders" on those benefits.  I doubt any entity could do such with an entire heavenly body.

Bill can probably do a better job than I can at tackling your very unusual and very unlikely scenario.  A much more likely situation would arise in the form of a private lunar mining colony that discovers huge sources of helium-3 and a way to employ it in clean fusion -- or perhaps large quantities of ice and ways to transform the area into a livable habitat.  They would justifiably claim ownership as a "stake" to that "land" and owe no compensation to anyone else.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 7/31, 7:55am)




Post 9

Thursday, August 2, 2007 - 8:29pmSanction this postReply
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So, it appears to follow that if someone decides to claim the air as personal property, then, since I have merely been a free rider on an unearned value, I am SOL, unless I can pay whatever the new private property owner figures the market can bear.

Or, since it IS his or her property now, then presumeably, if the new owner happens to be a man-hating econut for real, then he may decide not to sell any air at all, or maybe just to the handful of people who he needs to help protect his claim.  And then, Luke, you will be caught on the horns of a dilemna - moral or practical???  To breathe as a criminal or die a a virtuous, property-respecting objectivist (?).

I would point out that the majority - the VAST majority, as in 99.999% of most of what we depend upon for our very LIVES was not "earned" if by "earned" you mean having acquired via production or honest trade of value for value.  The gravity well that keeps the atmosphere in place, the solar energy that provides us with food and a livable environment, the 4 billion years of evolution that produced the genome that we utterly depend upon (I could go on..) - NONE of it was produced by me, you, or any human or even intelligent agent.  Even our ideas were mostly developed by other people...

On the other hand, I might be able to reformulate the concept of "earned" in such a way as to make a valid claim consistent with continuing to live, which would be handy, if your standard is life, that is.




Post 10

Thursday, August 2, 2007 - 11:22pmSanction this postReply
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I don't think that one can claim the moon as personal property and forbid anyone else from moving there. If you're not using a natural resource for a productive purpose of some kind, then you can't forbid others from using it. There does need to be some criteria for original property acquisition. But once you've acquired original property by using a natural resource to produce a material value, the property is yours to dispose of as you wish, consistent with a respect for the equal rights of others to do the same.

What needs to be stressed here is that public ownership is not a valid alternative to private ownership. In fact, the notion of public ownership, properly understood, is a contradiction in terms, because since "the public" is simply a group of individuals, the group is assumed to have rights that its individual members lack. But if the individual members of a group do not have rights, the group itself cannot have them.

What "public" ownership really means in practice is that some individuals, calling themselves "the public," have rights that other individuals lack, including "the right" to rule them by force. It is that right -- the right of public ownership -- that needs to be challenged, and the right of private ownership defended, by anyone who is seeking a fair and just society.

- Bill



Post 11

Friday, August 3, 2007 - 3:14amSanction this postReply
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I don't think that one can claim the moon as personal property and forbid anyone else from moving there. If you're not using a natural resource for a productive purpose of some kind, then you can't forbid others from using it. There does need to be some criteria for original property acquisition. But once you've acquired original property by using a natural resource to produce a material value, the property is yours to dispose of as you wish, consistent with a respect for the equal rights of others to do the same.
How would you square that with the ownership of a vacation property, where no resources are being developed?




Post 12

Friday, August 3, 2007 - 9:26amSanction this postReply
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Jonathan,

Good question! I don't think that the original acquisition of land can simply be based on an arbitrary claim to hundreds of acres, just because you can fence it off, say. But if you develop the land in order to serve an economic need that people are willing to pay for -- say, you clear the land of trees and underbrush, build cabins and generally improve the value of the land to serve the interests of vacationers -- then I think that this could qualify as a basis for ownership.

But it's a good question that merits further thought.

- Bill



Post 13

Friday, August 3, 2007 - 1:36pmSanction this postReply
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Ahh - but what if the 'economic value' of the land is as much the aethetic value? that is - what if in fencing off that 100 acres, an undetermined amount is then left in its uncontroled or 'natural' state, for whatever aesthetic purposes which may or may not include studying it as habitat.....  it is still a tendered land, as what is beyond the borders is not, thus valid as property.....

It is in claiming an undeterminate amount of land which raises question of the basis of property or ownership.....

(Edited by robert malcom on 8/03, 1:38pm)

(Edited by robert malcom on 8/03, 1:38pm)




Post 14

Friday, August 3, 2007 - 1:41pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

No, I don't agree that if nothing is done to the land, you can simply fence it off and claim it as yours. If nothing is done to it, then others have as much right to come and occupy it as you do. They shouldn't have to pay you for the "privilege" of doing so.

- Bill



Post 15

Friday, August 3, 2007 - 1:44pmSanction this postReply
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Then you are saying that to have a preserve is an invalid idea......



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Post 16

Friday, August 3, 2007 - 1:57pmSanction this postReply
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Would it not just be more prudent to have the government auction off previously unclaimed land to the highest bidder? To which the revenues from that can fund governmental operating expenses.



Post 17

Friday, August 3, 2007 - 7:13pmSanction this postReply
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Then you are saying that to have a preserve is an invalid idea......
As original property, yes, absolutely! Who the hell has the right to rope off huge tracts of land and declare that no one else has a right to use them to satisfy legitimate human needs, just because he or she wants to preserve them for the sake of nature, as if nature has rights that human beings do not!

Nevertheless, if the land was originally acquired as property by being used for a productive purpose and then subsequently sold to the highest bidder, the buyer has full rights of use and disposal, including maintaining the property as a nature preserve. By the same token, developers are free to negotiate a sale of the land for commercial use. Certainly, the government has no right to declare the property off limits to economic development.

One of the reasons housing prices are so high, with the poor unable to afford their own homes is because developers have been prevented by environmentalists from building new housing. Since the price of housing, like the prices of everything else, is a function of supply and demand, the lower the supply of housing, the higher its price. As a result, people who can't afford to buy a home are forced to live in noisy urban apartments and to endure a lower quality of life, courtesy of your friendly green activists, most of whom are liberals who are constantly bemoaning the plight of the poor in a capitalist society. That they and the government policies they support might have something to do with that poverty has probably never occurred to them!

- Bill




Post 18

Friday, August 3, 2007 - 9:27pmSanction this postReply
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Was not talking of government as having property, but persons - as had assumed you the same......
government, here, is just a band of thieves - and besides, their claims are usually the indefinite variety, not the measured  100 acres....

Further, roping off the 100 acres is not saying nature has any rights - that is a bogus argument here...

(Edited by robert malcom on 8/03, 9:28pm)

Further further - economic seeing need not be anywhere immediate......

(Edited by robert malcom on 8/03, 9:29pm)




Post 19

Friday, August 3, 2007 - 9:31pmSanction this postReply
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Bill:

One of the reasons housing prices are so high, with the poor unable to afford their own homes is because developers have been prevented by environmentalists from building new housing.


Bill, this is so true in my case, you wouldn't believe the kind of hell I went through building my own home because of absurd governmental restrictions. It took two years to finally finish my home at a considerably higher cost than what was planned for, with myself now as a plaintiff in a lawsuit against the town (and two other private parties) that has made my life a living hell for two years. The codes for building a home and putting in a septic system makes building a home outrageously more expensive, codes that do not make any sense. Such as requiring septic systems have two feet of naturally occuring soil over ledge. Naturally occuring defined as untouched by man. I mean there wasn't one engineer that could tell me that code made any sense as man can make better dirt than mother nature can!!!

The zoning official is making me clear up some piles of rocks I have tucked in the back corner of my lot and take away some cut down trees. I told him no way I want those trees for fire wood in the winter! But no, I have to or else my C.O. is revoked, of which I finally got after two failed home inspections (get this, because my basement steps were a half an inch too small).

Put on top of that the restrictions made on land use for wetlands and the endangered species act, and there's basically no more land left the government will let you build on.





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