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Post 0

Monday, September 3, 2007 - 12:05pmSanction this postReply
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Well said - a nice bit of clarity on an oft obsfucated subject...



Post 1

Monday, September 3, 2007 - 1:42pmSanction this postReply
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Well done, Joe! A very clear and elegant presentation.

Observe that the people on this forum who are claiming the desirability of taxation are not doing so for any other purpose than the defense of our rights. They're not doing so for any other reason than protection from the initiation of force. But taxation is itself the initiation of force. So how can they claim that for the government to initiate force against its citizens is necessary to protect its citizens from the initiation of force? It is impossible even in principle to meet the burden of proof for an assertion of that kind, because it is a contradiction in terms.

The same applies to the theist/atheist debate. It is impossible for the theist to meet the burden of proof, because the concept of God is self-contradictory. God is a pure spirit -- a consciousness without a body, but a bodiless consciousness is a contradiction in terms, because a consciousness requires organs of perception and cognition. Pure spirits like gods, ghosts, angels, devils or departed souls are impossible by the very nature of what it means to be conscious.

The same is true of extra-sensory perception. Several years ago, Nathaniel Branden sent me the results of a study which he claimed contained statistical evidence for ESP (he calls it "anomalous perception"). But there is no mechanism or sense organ through which this so-called "perception" is identified as taking place. Unless proponents of ESP can identify a sixth sense, they cannot claim that the alleged perception to which they are referring is real. They cannot differentiate it form a hunch or a lucky guess.

Consider the claims for out-of-body experiences. People who have been operated on claim that their soul leaves their body and rises to the ceiling of the operating room, where they can watch the operation on their own body taking place. Can the burden of proof for this assertion be met? No, because it is impossible for this sort of thing to have occurred? Why? Because if the soul left the body, it would have no physical sense organs with which to perceive the operation. How can you watch your own operation from above your body, if you have no eyes with which to observe it -- if your eyes remain in your body, which is on the operating table?

The only reasonable explanation for out-of-body experiences is that the subject is experiencing an hallucination due to an altered brain state; some think it's a lack of oxygen. But whatever it is, it is not the result of the soul's leaving the body, since a bodiless soul is impossible. A soul, spirit or consciousness requires a means of awareness; it requires a functioning brain and sense organs, without which it would not exist.

- Bill





Post 2

Monday, September 3, 2007 - 2:24pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks guys.  Glad you thought it was clear.

Bill, while I agree with your points, by stating these are impossible positions to prove, you take on a burden yourself.  There's nothing wrong with that, but it can complicate a debate.  Once you say this, they would focus on trying to find holes in your theory, again acting as if success there meant they win by default.  I think it's important to point out first that they have the burden, and until they satisfy it, their assertions fail.

Another point related to this article is the nature of the proof.  Take the ESP example of yours.  They might try to construe whatever data they have accumulated to support ESP.  But all you have to do is suggest it was a hunch, or a lucky guess, or some lightning-fast projection based on limited data.  They don't satisfy their burden by showing data that supports many different theories.  Same is true for the out of body experience.  Once you bring up hallucination, all of their evidence is worthless, and their statement becomes unjustified.




Post 3

Monday, September 3, 2007 - 4:23pmSanction this postReply
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You guys must have missed the recent headline news that provide some insight into the

Out-of-body experiences

I don't know if it answers all the questions, but it makes some sense.

Sam




Post 4

Monday, September 3, 2007 - 7:36pmSanction this postReply
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Hmm. Yeah, I guess you have a point there, Joe. It's just that you get people like Branden, who cite statistics that claim to prove ESP, on the grounds that the number of hits exceed the misses by a margin that would not be expected by chance alone. I like to point out that statistics notwithstanding, perception cannot take place outside of a sensory modality.

- Bill



Post 5

Monday, September 3, 2007 - 7:51pmSanction this postReply
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The sentence
Consider the issue of whether taxation, the coercive taking of property from some people and transferring it to the government.
contains either no verb or an extraneous whether.



Post 6

Monday, September 3, 2007 - 8:41pmSanction this postReply
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so true - is missing the verb 'is', after taxation.....



Post 7

Monday, September 3, 2007 - 11:38pmSanction this postReply
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He was probably revising the sentence and forgot to delete "whether." What he meant to say was presumably the following: "Consider the issue of taxation, the coercive taking of property from some people and transferring it to the government." Am I right, Joe?

- Bill



Post 8

Monday, September 3, 2007 - 11:51pmSanction this postReply
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Bill is right.  It happens occasionally, as I rewrite sentences all the time. I've made edited it.

Oh, and Bill, I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that "perception cannot take place outside of a sensory modality".  Or maybe "perception only takes place..."  Certainly there's enough evidence and theory to support that.  It would just add more to their burden.




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Post 9

Tuesday, September 4, 2007 - 8:02amSanction this postReply
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As to ID, it is a classic case of the stolen concept fallacy. And the first piece in the current issue of JARS disputing Rand's case about God's existence commits it in spades. Intelligence is something that's made possible only by the existence of a certain kind of brain, one with the capacity for conceptual consciousness. But ID denies that such a brain exists prior to the intelligence that designed brains (among other things). That's like claiming that the third floor of a building can exist prior to the basement and the first two floors.



Post 10

Tuesday, September 4, 2007 - 9:48amSanction this postReply
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Like that old A1 Steak Sauce commercial, the guy asks, "What is hamburger, is it ham?...It is beef".  Listening to objectivists and people of reason argue with theists is the same.  Both sides have preconceived ideas and as emotional as the theists are, many non-theists are just as emotional and prejudiced (this forum excluded).  IMHO the debate comes down to one about the human mind itself.  Religion existed in all of it's cultural grandeur as well as irationality and insanity for centuries.  Obviously great minds like Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, Einstein, Freund, Jung etc. have brought great enlightenment, but scientists are still as mystified as ever by the human mind.



Post 11

Tuesday, September 4, 2007 - 12:57pmSanction this postReply
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I am not sure it helps much to dismiss all Objectivists as prejudiced in the theism versus atheism debate.  Sure, some emotions may be involved, as in all disputations. The parties may feel impatient with one another, even angry at their opponents' refusal to see reason, etc., etc.  But aside from all that there are the arguments, the logic, the facts, etc., which in most cases are the main focus. As someone who has been involved in this debate for a long time--since I "lost my religion" after having tried to hang on to it for dear life but against what I saw as all reason--I am confident that I am not indulging in some kind of emotion driven undertaking.



Post 12

Wednesday, September 5, 2007 - 4:46amSanction this postReply
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No doubt in my mind that rational thought and argument has sanitized alot of the insanity in mainstream religion.  My point is that the rules of argument are very important of course but in the end the theists and the atheists may find out that they are really arguing about the same thing, the human mind itself.  One side looks from faith, spirituality and theology while the other approaches objectively, rationally, scientifically and philosophicaly etc. but both may end up in the same place.



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Post 13

Wednesday, September 5, 2007 - 10:17amSanction this postReply
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Well, if "in the end the theists and the atheists may find out that they are really arguing about the same thing, the human mind itself," then, of course, they also may find out that they are not really arguing about the same thing, the human mind itself, but about, say, what exists and what doesn't. In my experience, that is what most of these arguments are about, not the human mind.



Post 14

Wednesday, September 5, 2007 - 10:59amSanction this postReply
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But I guess that's my point exactly, it always turns into an argument about what exists or doesnt' exist (which is your experience and my experience as well).  I think Christopher Hitchens makes the point beautifully because he does not want to believe in something which is a benevolent or non-benevolent dictator which keeps track of everything I do and gives me a report card at the end of my life.  Falwell and the religious conservatives make the point that the American founders were religious but he failed to realize they (founding fathers) also did not want to live under a religious dictator or for that matter an earthly government dictatorship either....Life, Liberty, Pursuit of Happiness...It's all in the mind.



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