RoR: Forum

Post 0

Monday, October 15, 2007 - 1:30pm

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Joseph, I agree with your article implicitly.

Post 1

Monday, October 15, 2007 - 5:50pm

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Joe, describing an irrational person, you wrote,

The highest purpose is no longer a commitment to recognizing reality. Even when you do resort to reason, it is never out of a commitment to understanding reality. It's just for lack of a preferred option.

Perhaps, I misunderstand you, but I wouldn't say that the person is even, in this instance, resorting to reason. He or she is still operating on the primacy of emotion. But this may be your point -- that this so-called "resort to reason" is only the appearance of reason, not the genuine article. Am I correct?

- Bill

Post 2

Monday, October 15, 2007 - 7:13pm

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Can an "always irrational" person actually exist outside of a psychiatric institution? I have trouble conceiving of such a person. I do know what it's like to try to argue with someone who is predominantly limbic driven in certain areas of life, though. Spending much time with them probably wouldn't be productive outside of a client - therapist situation.

Post 3

Monday, October 15, 2007 - 7:58pm

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Joe, I really like this piece.

Steven, you asked:

Can an "always irrational" person actually exist outside of a psychiatric institution?

I think so. Remember, "always irrational" folks aren't folks who "never" use reason (i.e., the crack-pots in the psyche ward). They just "always" value something higher than our proper means of truth-attainment, and therefore, than of truth-attainment itself. I've repeatedly experienced folks choosing to live a lie. Hell, that's probably more than 2 thirds of my family members and former friends!

It's not so far-fetched to think that there are folks walking around (outside of padded, pink-painted rooms) with reason playing second-fiddle to their emotions. In fact, it's been my experience that this is quite common. These folks would utilize reason to get themselves out of a pickle where emotions couldn't -- effectively keep them from getting straight-jacketed.

As a telling example, my own aunt stops in the middle of the road (with her hand out) in order to prove to the drivers that they need to stop for her in the crosswalk. She contributes nothing to society; lives on cigarettes, coffee, and toast; and force-feeds herself several hours of televangelism each day -- making it to the doctor every month or so in order to get injected with the nutrition she doesn't daily consume.

I have several dozen more examples of people in my life who worship whim at the expense of reason -- but will restrain myself in order to save time, energy, and to prevent reader-boredom of seeing repeated examples of daily irrationality.

;-)

Ed

Post 4

Monday, October 15, 2007 - 10:50pm

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Thanks everyone.

Gigi, I'm glad you agreed.

Bill, that was my point. But I'm not sure how to describe this "resort to reason". They may be applying proper methods of identification or integration. It's not that they simply "feel". I pointed out that they are not really committed to recognizing reality, but at the same time they are using their minds and using rational processes, even if the overall process is corrupted. For instance, say they use logic to deduce something about reality, and their emotions don't overrule this particular identification. They would be using one of the tools of reason, while not really being rational. As I said in the article, this is complex. If you have a better way to describe it, I'd appreciate your input.

Steven, Ed's response is how I would reply.

Ed, I'm glad you like it. And thanks for responding to Steven. You look like you understood exactly what I was saying.

Post 5

Tuesday, October 16, 2007 - 8:39pm

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Joe,

They say that wisdom is an outcome of experience, and that if you fail to gain wisdom from your experiences, then you get "rewarded" with more (bad) experiences! In more straight-forward terms, yes, I get what you mean because I've been there and done that and have personally experienced -- first hand -- that which you have, here-to-fore, illuminated.

;-)

And thanks for the "kudos"!

Ed
[some folks just choose whim as their default 'modus operandi' -- though they reason when they have to (to keep themselves out of a straight-jacket; or a pink-painted, padded cell)]

Post 6

Wednesday, October 17, 2007 - 8:46pm

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I would be interested in any hypotheses as to how to fit the following into the paradigm under discussion:

1> Some years ago, I recall hearing or reading about a U.S. Army study that looked at the phenomynon of courage. The conclusion of the study was that everyone appears to have a finite amount, some more than others. Heroic warriors would charge into battle time after time, and then, one day, they would suddenly be unable to face their fears.

2> NPR had an interview with and/or report during the past week or so on a study of "will." Similarly, researchers found that people appear to have a finite amount of it. Once it is used up, it's gone, although it does replentish itself naturally. The experiments focused on having subjects undergo trials that either required an act of will - going against natural inclinations and feelings - or not. Then the subjects were tested separately on how much willpower they could muster. Those who had already been stressed were sorely lacking.

I suspect that this is the basis of a lot of the control mechanisms by which sociopaths and sociopathic institutions manipulate people. I note that other recent studies claim to show that verbal aggression, displays of rage, etc., by bosses or parents or bullies, cause the same level of measurable psychological trauma as physical abuse. Permanent changes appear in the brains of mice who are the subject of bullying by other mice.

Post 7

Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 1:39am

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Your article is a great help in aiding me in identifying manipulative people. Being rational does not mean one is cold hearted. Aristotle had a pretty good idea with his framework of means. Mayhap irrational people have no ethics, they may be incapable of being honest with them selves for one reason or another. They may have a chemical imbalance in their brain self inflicted or occurring naturally. Or they may believe so deeply in some form of misinformation that they lose touch with reality.In my experience, to be intrinsically happy I have to make rational decisions.To make rational decisions one needs proven facts. I have learned that to rely on extrinsic stimulus for my satisfaction is not reliable and erodes my integrity.