About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unread


Post 0

Monday, October 22, 2007 - 5:08amSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
Yep - all act of choice is an act of morality, whether higher or lower level - and the more integrated one is, the more consistant the choosing even at the lower levels.....  because it all deals with values, particularly viable values......
(Edited by robert malcom on 10/22, 5:09am)




Post 1

Monday, October 22, 2007 - 12:19pmSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
Timing is important that is for sure.  

I am over 72 but my younger brother Dean http://www.deanreed.ru/
died when he was in his late forties. 

Dean "lived fast, died young, and left a beautiful memory."

As our Daddy used to say to his three little sons.   Dale
---
$ dale-reed@worldnet.att.net   Seattle, Washington $




Post 2

Monday, October 22, 2007 - 5:21pmSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
Interesting article, Joe, and not an easy subject.

I'm wondering how you would respond to the idea that what we want is to maximize our happiness. So we wouldn't just choose future happiness over present happiness, or present happiness over future happiness. What we would choose is a way of life that gives us the most happiness throughout the course of our lives. This may require us to forgo present consumption in order to save and produce for the future, but it also requires that we consume what we've produced.

How much emphasis we give to the future over the present depends, of course, on our time preference, which can vary from person to person. Some people prefer to pay a higher price for present consumption -- as reflected in the interest rate they are willing to pay on borrowed money -- whereas others, whose time preference is lower, are willing to postpone present enjoyment for the sake of future gain, and will borrow money only at a lower rate of interest. Who is to say which of these courses of action is more conducive to the moral agent's happiness. Doesn't it depend on his or her personal values?

- Bill



Post 3

Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 12:15amSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
Hi Bill,

I agree.  It isn't an easy subject.

You asked about maximizing happiness.  I think there's some circularity there.  Happiness is an emotional state or response.  But as an emotion, it's based on responses to your value-judgements.  How do you decide on the value-judgments in the first place?

In the context of time preference, you say "Doesn't it depend on his or her personal values?".  Well, time preference is just a description of your personal values.  It's not something that precedes them.  If you happen to value instant gratification, always preferring values that are immediate, we could discuss your time preference.  But it doesn't tell you whether your values are rational or not.  I don't think you can simply say that you value this set of things more, so therefore you should value those things more.

To bring rationality to the decision, you need some cognitive method of deciding which values best promote your life.  You can't simply use 'happiness' or 'time-preference' as the standard, as those both results from your value choices.  You need some way of deciding what values will promote your life, and consequently make you happy.  You need some way of deciding whether a value in the future is worth more or less than a value in the present.

If we rule out emotions as our guide, it leaves the question of how do we make these kinds of choices.  When I have to make a trade-off between a value now and in the future, how do I make the choice.  Part of it is through projection of my life into the future.  I don't see the future as unconnected from myself.  But I also don't see the present as just a means for the future.  I integrate.  My present life is not simply the momentary pleasures or emotions I feel right this second.  I see it as a part of a process, or a progression.  I'm not simply acting.  I'm living my life.

So in my articles, I discuss life as a progression.  Not simply as a series of actions, or a means to some ultimate purpose which when I accomplish it'll all be over.  Instead, it's a process of action aimed at expanding my choices, pursuing my goals, and keeping enough values in my life that I enjoy the process.  I don't think this is simply one man's value choices.  I think this is what life means.  It's a constant self-generated, self-sustaining action, seeking ever greater values, and moving in a direction with more options and more capabilities.




Post 4

Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 2:40amSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
Instead of  "to provide a means of choosing between various choices" I recommend " to provide a means of choosing between various alternatives."



Post 5

Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 12:56pmSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
Thanks Tibor.  That is a lot better.



Post 6

Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 10:42pmSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
Joe: It's a constant self-generated, self-sustaining action, seeking ever greater values, and moving in a direction with more options and more capabilities.

I agree with the above statement Joe, but I also believe that it is very important to stop and enjoy our accomplishments, a least for a while, before we move in a direction with more options and more capabilities.
Our mind is strong, but our body is not as strong.

Ciro

 




Post 7

Friday, October 26, 2007 - 5:58amSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
You love smelling the roses, huh Ciro......;-)



Post 8

Friday, October 26, 2007 - 9:29amSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
hahahahah! I do! Robert.

Ciao.




Post to this thread
User ID Password reminder or create a free account.