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Monday, December 3, 2007 - 6:09amSanction this postReply
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Eric Rockwell wrote:
This Principle of Retaliatory Action was to serve the purpose of protecting, maintaining, and advancing one’s own interests. This retaliatory action might come in the form of taking an offender to court and suing him for damages, or in returning physical force in kind. It could be applied to individuals or to whole nations.
Both men betrayed their values in their own ways by not involving the law enforcement system in the proper pursuit and conviction of these thugs.  Jones should have handed the money to the thug and then filed a police report while Smith rightly shot the first thug but wrongly engaged in vigilantism against the gang of thugs.  Of course, if both Smith and Jones suffer under a thoroughly corrupt and ineffective government, then all bets are off.




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Post 1

Monday, December 3, 2007 - 9:49amSanction this postReply
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A thoughtful and interesting essay. Let me see if I can parse my own thoughts. This is off the top of my head:
 
Once upon a time in a parallel universe, lived a man named Galt who knew both Smith and Jones. He came to lecture them at the hospital, where both men were in rehab for their injuries.
 
"Gentlemen," said Galt "have you learned anything?"
"I should have been quieter creeping through that window" said Smith as he hobbled through his exercises.
"I should have struck that bastard harder- and before he could shoot me" said Jones, adjusting his morphine drip.
 
"Check your premises", said Galt. "Neither of you have applied your philosophy. Jones applied it selectively and Smith applied it incompletely. Jones ignored his heirarchy of values, applying the virtue of justice without also applying the virtue of rationality. He struck back as he was morally entitled to, without considering the context and consequences. Morally, there is no failure when one is forced to surrender a value to another man. It is no moral failure to submit to a killers gun. The only moral failure is to surrender your person, your mind: To excuse evil, to allow it to justify itself, to obfuscate it. You have the moral right to defend yourself against all initiation but not a moral obligation to do so. Philosophy is a tool for guidance- it serves you. You do not serve it. Next time, carry a gun as Smith did. Or run. Or surrender. Only never allow a thief to convince you that he has the right and you are selfish for wanting to keep your own wealth. Defend your values to the best of your ability- but remember that your highest value is your life."
Then Galt turned to Smith, and his green eyes shone.
 
"Jones may be pitied, but you should be damned. You have not applied your philosophy beyond the individual. There's an entire branch of Philosophy you have ignored: politics. Politics is the study of the interaction of men. You've evaded the fact that the principle of individual rights applies to all men- not just to you. The men you murdered posessed rights just as much as you do- and when you crept through their windows to kill you were a greater villain than any of them. You could have tied them up. They were no threat to you in that moment. You violated their property rights by breaking and entering, then you murdered when it was not necessary. They had every right to shoot you in defense of their home. What justification did you give? They were the same gang as the man who accosted you? Is that a reason? Would it have been a sufficient if they were merely the same family, his co-workers or the same race? Would you be justified in killing every member of the human species in self-protection because one of their nuumber once accosted you? You acted on a premise of collective guilt. You are not the police. If, while you were creeping through windows, the wife of one of them attacked you in defense of her husband, would you have been justified in killing her in 'self-defense'? Would you presume the right to act in retaliation against her retaliation in response to your retaliation to her husband's retaliation to your retaliation against his friend's initiation? This is why the study of politics is necessary. Smith & Jones, you should have worked together as rational men to clear this neighborhood of thugs. You should have worked to devise a system of cooperation so that you could subordinate retalitory force to objective rules. Instead, you applied the principle as individuals in a wanton way and you've both suffered. Jones, you will heal- in fact, here comes Doctor Hendricks now. "
 
The kindly doctor appeared, kneeling at Jones' side.
"Your wound, at least, is physical but not spiritual" said Galt, and Jones winced as Hendrick's tested the leg.
Then Galt turned to Smith again, and his eyes narrowed.
"Will I also be healed?" asked Smith.
Galt clapped his hand onto Smith's shoulder.
"Eventually. But first you have a date with Judge Narragansett"
And then Smith felt the iron grip of Ragnar Danneskjold on his other shoulder and the two heroes led the remorseful Smith to jail.
As the iron bars shut behind him, the prisoner suddenly spun to face his captors. "Wait a second!" said Smith. "Ragnar did the same thing I did!"
"We'll discuss that at trial" said Galt.

Now, Eric, with Judge Narragansett presiding, would you like to give Smith's defense?




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Post 2

Monday, December 3, 2007 - 4:04pmSanction this postReply
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I am surprised that Galt has entered this alternate universe!  Anyway, here's Smith's defense:

JUDGE NARRAGANSETT: Smith, you have been charged with the crime of initiation of force. How do you plead?
SMITH: Not guilty, your honor.
JUDGE NARRANGANSETT: Your defense?
SMITH: My actions were all based on a clear hierarchy of values, Judge. I hold my own life as my highest value, and I was acting in response to those that would destroy it.
JUDGE NARRANGANSETT: Your killing of the of man who initiated force against you has been settled as a case of self-defense. But what is your defense for taking the lives of the five other men?
SMITH: I had good reason to believe that they posed a serious threat to my security. They were part of a dangerous gang which shared a mindset that promoted violence and death. If I failed to act, I would be sacrificing my life for the sake of theirs. My life would be lived in fear of the day when one of them or all of them would come after me. If I failed to act, I would be failing to defend my own values; and that failure would be an appeasement to the worst kind of evil.
JUDGE NARRANGANSETT: I'm not clear as to the political and legal system in this parallel universe you're from, but in ours, the proper action would have been to call the police.
SMITH: In our society, each man is his own policeman, your honor.
JUDGE NARRANGANSETT: And why didn't you attempt to collaborate with other rational, peace-loving individuals to rid the community of these dangerous thugs?
SMITH: I did just that, your honor. I had the moral support of many friends, some of whom supplied with me with weapons and ammunition. It was really a group effort, but I alone took the ultimate action, so I alone must stand trial here.
JUDGE NARRANGANSETT: The only proper use of force against men, Smith, is in response to an initiation of force. Do you agree with that?
SMITH: Yes, I do, your honor.
JUDGE NARRANGANSETT: What evidence do you have that these five men committed an initiation of force?
SMITH: Well, your honor, I have proof here that one of them had raped a woman in the community. She came forward with this information only after the criminal was dead.
JUDGE NARRANGANSETT: That information is inadmissible, because your action preceded your knowledge of his crime. The only pertinent information is what you knew prior to killing these men.
SMITH: I knew that this was a violent gang that was out to kill me. I had killed one of their members, and they wanted revenge. They were approaching me one night with a very threatening and menacing attitude. I ran from them, terrified.
JUDGE NARRANGANSETT: Your emotional state isn't evidence that they initiated any force.
SMITH: But they were going to in the future, so I had to prevent them from doing that.
JUDGE NARRANGANSETT: Isn't the "preventive" use of force the same as the initiation of force?
SMITH: No, because.......because... This is different, your honor. These are not men of reason, they are outside the moral sphere. Most of them have criminal records, you honor. I had some evidence, before killing any of them, that some of them may have been responsible for acquiring and giving that weapon to the thug who wounded my friend Jones. They were all part of it. They share the responsibility.
JUDGE NARRANGANSETT: Four of the five men all had criminal records, Smith. But one had no criminal record. What do you say of that?
SMITH: In a campaign like the one I was involved in, a mission to eliminate the terror caused by irrational tribes of hooligans, there is bound to be collateral damage. 

After Smith had made his defense, the prosecution called Ragnar Danneskjold to the stand.  (Your turn!)






Post 3

Monday, December 3, 2007 - 6:19pmSanction this postReply
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[spectator whispering to his friend next to him - "this is getting interesting...."]



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Post 4

Monday, December 3, 2007 - 8:14pmSanction this postReply
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JN: Mr. Danneskjold, you and Mr. Galt have filed this complaint against Mister Smith. In his written petition, he has claimed that Ragnar's "i quote, "vigilante" actions as a pirate were comparable to his actions and that if Ragnar bears no moral responsibility neither should he. That, in effect, all is fair in war. How do you answer him?

Galt: May I answer, your honor?

JN: I have asked Ragnar.

RD: I fought men openly. I commanded a ship and a crew. That ship, that society of crewmen, was a voluntary organization of men who flew under the flag of reason. We respected individual rights among ourselves, and our use of force was directed against the agents of a looter government in time of war. We were, in effect, a sovereign nation on the high seas.

JN: May a nation do what an individual may not? Mr. Galt, sit down. I am speaking to Mr. Danneskjold.

RD: If the nation is Just, your honor. If the world contains enemies who are gathering their strength to destroy you, you must stand and fight. If you don't it is practically an invitation.

JN: "Practically"? What of principle?

RD: Your honor?

JN: When do you stand and fight? When you are on the battlefield openly? When you can get away with it? When your enemy lies asleep? The issue in this case is not whether Mr. Smith has the right to defend himself. He certainly does. The issue is whether, in his firm belief that his life was in danger, he is justified in acting pre-emptively with lethal force. Did you ever act pre-emptively, Ragnar?

RD: I have. I have attacked ships that were never a threat to me personally. I have seized goods that were not mine to seize.

JN: What was your justification?

JG: Objection. Ragnar is not on trial here, your honor.

JN: Nor are you his lawyer. Don't look at me like that, John. I'm asking him to make the case. I want to understand the principles involved. Ragnar is not a defendant here, merely an expert witness. He is our only professional philosopher.

RD: I defer to Mr. Galt.

JG: I withdraw the objection.

JN: Ragnar?

RD: In our age, I had the moral right to act as I did. Due to circumstances, there is no question of the legal right. I was not a citizen of any nation. A free man acts as he must by the dictates of his own mind.

JN: And as a citizen, one is not free?

RD: Once a man has voluntarily agreed to be subject to a social system- which you do the first time you accept the benefits of a social system- he is subject to that nations laws- to the degree that the laws are Just. If a nations laws protect individual rights, a man therein remains free even though he is subject to the law. If the laws destroy rights, man's mind is still free but his body is enslaved. No law can outlaw the mind, it can only outlaw one's ability to express one's thoughts. As long as the body is enslaved, man is justified in taking action to remove the chains. He may take all non-violent action to convince his fellow men to reform the system. Use of force is not justified until the day when the government finally forbids expression of ideas. At that point, there is no other option except force. The actions I took were in that context. An act of rebellion is not vigilantism. One can only justify taking the law into one's hands when the law is left trampled on the ground by one's nation.

JN: Mr. Smith has no nation. He is an individual with no legal system. What is the moral status of his action? No. Don't answer that. This is a courtroom, not a classroom . What law has he broken?

RD: I confess, none. He has obeyed the law of the jungle. As to his moral status...

JN: That is not a question for the law. Mr. Smith is free to go. I have no jurisdiction.

Smith: Thank you, your honor.

JN: But, Mr. Smith. You are in our world now. Leave your retalitory actions to the policemen.

Mr. Smith gets up and leaves the courtroom.

JG: May I speak now?

JN: Sure, John.

And Galt says...



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Post 5

Tuesday, December 4, 2007 - 6:45pmSanction this postReply
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Galt: A parallel universe is a contradiction, your honor. If Mr. Smith's world exists, it is part of existence and cannot be considered 'another universe', but merely a different part of natural reality which may be more or less difficult to reach.

JN: So he is a resident of the outer world and is not subject to the laws of the gulch?

Galt: He is not. Laws are decided upon and enforced differently from culture to culture, and differ from place to place. But morality is a whole other matter. A rational morality, my morality, is not something voted in by a majority, or passed in congress. Rather, my morality arises from facts, specifically facts about mankind, and can be applied to any culture at any time. Laws and customs are relative. Morality is not.

(Galt spoke for twenty more pages at this point, but since a lot of people would probably skip over it, I'll just jump ahead....)

Galt: ....and so, uh, where was I? Ah, yes, I was showing the honorable Judge Narrangansett that there need be no distinction between the morality of an individual and the morality of a nation. If Smith was morally wrong for what he did, it wouldn't make it right if he had twenty people assisting him, or twenty thousand, or twenty million. Or if he hired a military to do it for him. The morality of his actions wouldn't change because it had been the result of a vote, or a declaration from an esteemed body of representatives. If Smith and his friends who helped him attain weapons and ammunition called themselves The United Republic of Smith it would not alter the morality of his actions. Moral transgressions are not wiped out because a dictator declares them just, or hordes of people condone them and vote them in.

(Here, Galt spoke for ten more pages. Eddie Willers walked into the courtroom, covered with dirt and oil. It was a long walk from the desert to here, but he made it! Not sure how he found it, but anyway....He took a seat at the back of the courtroom and listened quietly.)

Galt: As for Smith, his first act of killing another man was highly moral. The others are highly questionable. But the greater question posed by his actions is whether or not he was true to his principles. He was and he wasn't: A necessary contradiction due to a contradictory premise. Smith was true to the principle of self-preservation, but he betrayed the non-initiation of force principle. Smith's philosopher defined The Principle of Retaliatory Action as one expression of the higher and more fundamental non-initiation of force principle. Smith lost sight of this hierarchy. In addition, he was able to deceive himself by continually asserting that everything is contextual, which led to a range-of-the-moment pragmatism. Thus, Smith chose to abide by the law of the jungle, and through evasion, betrayed his own principles.

But there were arguments against the case Galt made....



Post 6

Tuesday, December 4, 2007 - 7:12pmSanction this postReply
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(Galt spoke for twenty more pages at this point, but since a lot of people would probably skip over it, I'll just jump ahead....)

 

had to admit this brought a laugh...




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Post 7

Tuesday, December 4, 2007 - 9:50pmSanction this postReply
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Eric,

What if the gang in question was named Al Qaeda?  Using the term "gang" loosely sounds like these are just people who hang out together, which would make Mr. Smith bad.  But if this is an organized criminal group, where membership is chosen and supports those illegal ends, does it make sense to treat only those particular individuals who were involved in a particular crime as the rights-violators?  Are the other members of the organization innocent until they themselves are proven guilty?

Also, you said (or perhaps I should say your Galt said):
Smith's philosopher defined The Principle of Retaliatory Action as one expression of the higher and more fundamental non-initiation of force principle.
Interestingly, I see it a little different.  I was talking to a friend the other day, and said that whereas many libertarians believe in the non-initiation of force principle, I believe in the Retaliatory Force principle.  The first is compatible with pacifism, inaction, and injustice.  It seems to be concerned with achieving some status, proving that you're not immoral.  The second is concerned with promoting and protecting life, and furthering justice.  The first says "I won't hurt anyone".  The second says "I won't let anyone hurt me or any other civilized men, and get away with it".  The first says I won't sacrifice the lives of others to myself.  The second says that I won't allow others to sacrifice me either.  The first says I won't initiate force.  The second says I won't tolerate force.  The first says "The initiation of force is inappropriate for me".  The second says "The initiation of force is inappropriate for everyone".

I don't really see The Principle of Retaliatory Action as an expression of the Non-Initiation of Force Principle.  The goals seem to be different.  From the perspective of the Retaliatory Force Principle, the Non-Initiation of Force Principle is a simple corollary.  First, you say that the initiation of force should be outlawed and responded to in general.  Then you apply that principle to yourself as well.

But those who start with the Non-Initiation of Force Principle don't logically end up promoting Retaliatory force.  The focus is on not using force, instead of responding to force.  And so in practice, it often leads to an intrinsic view of rights, pacificism and a preference for inaction, and anarchism and a general opposition to any government.

(Edited by Joseph Rowlands on 12/04, 9:53pm)




Post 8

Wednesday, December 5, 2007 - 7:47amSanction this postReply
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This thread is extremely important — and particularly, Joe's paragraph:

I was talking to a friend the other day, and said that whereas many libertarians believe in the non-initiation of force principle, I believe in the Retaliatory Force principle.  The first is compatible with pacifism, inaction, and injustice.  It seems to be concerned with achieving some status, proving that you're not immoral.  The second is concerned with promoting and protecting life, and furthering justice.  The first says "I won't hurt anyone".  The second says "I won't let anyone hurt me or any other civilized men, and get away with it".  The first says I won't sacrifice the lives of others to myself.  The second says that I won't allow others to sacrifice me either.  The first says I won't initiate force.  The second says I won't tolerate force.  The first says "The initiation of force is inappropriate for me".  The second says "The initiation of force is inappropriate for everyone".

although I think the statement: "I won't let anyone hurt me or any other civilized men, and get away with it" needs more discussion. Certainly, in some sense, my security is threatened if other innocent persons are threatened but there is a limit to how much one should intervene and rectify every injustice. At some point it becomes a sacrifice.

Sam




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Post 9

Wednesday, December 5, 2007 - 11:02amSanction this postReply
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Joe,

I think there is an important distinction to be made between the gang in the story and a gang like Al Qaeda.  We don't know if what Smith perceived to be "a gang of angry thugs" were the criminal's friends, family, or truly part of an organized crime ring.  Smith had no proof of their collective responsibility; in Smith's eyes, they were guilty by association. This stands in sharp contrast to the knowledge we have of Al Qaeda.  When Smith acted against the gang, he was doing it based on assumptions without evidence; When we act against Al Qaeda, we do so out of respect for facts, not assumptions.   

The reason I see the Non-Initiation of Force principle as preceding the Principle of Retaliatory Action in the hierarchy is because the latter cannot exist without the former.  That is, the only way to formulate a proper use of retaliation is to first articulate why it must be used and what it is proper to use it against.  Only be defining what must not be tolerated (the use of force) can a moral use of retaliatory force be understood. 

You write: 
But those who start with the Non-Initiation of Force Principle don't logically end up promoting Retaliatory force. 
 My response is, "Well, they should!" 

The danger in starting with the Principle of Retaliatory Action is illustrated by Smith's actions in the story.  Because the hierarchy is dismissed, Smith begins "retaliating" against anybody he feels like; anyone who gives him a funny look or seems menacing;  including people who didn't initiate force against him or anyone else.  Without knowing what the Principle of Retaliatory Action is designed to respond to, Smith freely begins using force against presumed enemies, friends of enemies, or anyone who seems suspicious. 

Because Smith felt the purpose of the principle was to protect his values, he could eventually convince himself that he would be justified in killing someone just to take their money, since that money would be a value to him.  In other words, Smith could become indistinguishable from the criminal.  The only thing that keeps this in check is the awareness that the Principle of Retaliatory Action is in response to one thing and one thing only:  The initiation of force.




Post 10

Wednesday, December 5, 2007 - 6:15pmSanction this postReply
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Eric, thank you for your hard work on this.  Among the sanctions were mine.  Your presentations were insightful and masterly.  (I also sanctioned Richard Gleaves' response.)  Such discussion are important and necessary.  In a sociological experiment, players were given an arbitrary political war scenario.  When the map of Country A and Country B, etc., looked like Southeast Asia in 1965, people responded differently than when the map of Country A and Country B, etc., looked like France and Germany in World War II, but it was the same scenario.  Smith, Jones, and others allow us to step back and analyze the essentials before bringing the problem into the real world.




Post 11

Thursday, December 6, 2007 - 6:24pmSanction this postReply
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Eric and Sam,

Eric, I brought up the Al Qaeda "gang" idea because your story wasn't clear.  He seemed to know they were part of a gang, but didn't reveal to the audience anything about it.  It's your story, though.

I don't disagree with your position on Retaliation Principle vs. Non-Initiation of Force Principle, except the definition.  I think we both agree that the concept of an initiation of force is critical.  But I treat these principles as some kind of moral guides to action.  I don't see the NIOF principle as simply a recognition that the initiation of force is bad.  I see it as a moral guide that suggests the appropriate way to behave given the concept is to not initiate force against others.  And I see the Retaliation Principle as suggesting the appropraite way to behave is to not simply limit your actions, but to retaliate against those who do initiate force.  From my understanding, both principles recognize the concept of an initiation of force, and they both suggest a behavior in response to that concept.

From your comments, the NIOF principle is just this concept that initiations of force are bad, without any suggested course of action.  And that's why you think it should be primary.  I can accept that that concept has to be primary, and these principles that guide action must be secondary.  But I'd make it clear that the NIOF principle, as accepted by libertarians, is not simply that concept.  It is a derivative, just as the Retaliation principle is derivative.

Sam, I agree that it would require more discussion if I meant it to be a moral rule that requires following in every case, like the Mr. Jones of this story.  Instead, I simply meant it to show that there is an important value in preventing any initiation of force, not simply the ones that are directly aimed at you.  It goes along with the harmony of interests, and an attack on others hurts you as well.  But whether you're able to retaliate when the force is applied to you or the force is applied to others is a question of context and application.




Post 12

Thursday, December 6, 2007 - 8:01pmSanction this postReply
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Joe,

You've zeroed in on the precise story element that warranted the title, "A Fine Line."  You are correct that the nature of the gang in the story is made unclear.  It was purposely left vague, in order to bring Smith's morality into question. If the gang had been members of organized crime, and Smith had hard evidence of their complicity; then it would be sort of a "Jones was wrong, Smith was right" pat answer.  Leaving the nature of the gang unknown, and specifically unknown to Smith, is what damns him. He acts on assumption rather than on fact.  Jones drops context by treating principles as rules, Smith drops context by failing to require evidence. 

I agree with your assessment that both the Non-Initiation of Force Principle and the Principle of Retaliatory Action are derived from a more fundamental repudiation of the initiation of force.  Good point.




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