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Post 40

Thursday, May 15 - 11:26pmSanction this postReply
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Very fortunately I said neither that "We do not now live in this rationalist hypothesis of a perfect world. If we did, we would not need to limit the 'rights' of voters," nor that "We do not live in this rationalist hypothesis of a perfect world. Therefore, we do need to limit the 'rights' of voters." So I am not obliged to address the question that these notions generate for some people.  More generally, I do not try to speculate on public policies for unjust systems as such.  I might consider what others propose and worry about how those ideas may function in the messy world in which we live based on whether they help promote justice.





Post 41

Friday, May 16 - 5:49amSanction this postReply
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Dr. Tibor Machan asserted in Post #27:  As to age limits, they are related to maturity, an objective precondition for holding office. Just like the right to enter into a contract, which kicks in only when one is of age.

So, "in a free society" the age limits should be different for women than for men, as women mature earlier than men?

(I took this over to another topic, "A Rational Government Would Look Like This..." in the Objectivism forum.  That seems like a better place, rather than to hijack this thread, which is dedicated to denouncing all politicians, apparently including Ronald Reagan and Thomas Jefferson and me.)




Post 42

Friday, May 16 - 7:16amSanction this postReply
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OK, nearly all politicians. Certainly all those who engage in wealth "redistribution."



Post 43

Friday, May 16 - 10:25amSanction this postReply
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Actually, I did say this about political corruption: "For my money the one profession that has indeed become completely, utterly morally irredeemable is politics. Not that even this is necessarily the case--politics could be an upstanding profession in a genuinely free country where those practicing it did what the American Founders believed should be their task: to secure our rights, period."



Post 44

Friday, May 16 - 12:32pmSanction this postReply
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Tibor wrote:

> politics could be an upstanding profession in a genuinely free country where those practicing it
> did what the American Founders believed should be their task: to secure our rights, period.

This brings up an interesting point. Without going into lots of detailed specifics, I would be curious to hear from people their opinion as to just how free they realistically see a society could potentially be, given the range of humanity we observe around us. In broad outlines, what institutions or structures do you think would be required to support such a society in a stable state over a long period of time - i.e., many generations?

In Atlas Shrugged, Rand suggests at the end that some modifications to the US Constitution separating politics and economics would be necessary (and sufficient??). Do you agree that, given the current state of this country and the state of the world, there is a realistic chance of achieving the cultural shift necessary to move to and achieve the goal of respect and support for broad individual freedom in this country without something on the order of revolution or total economic collapse?

Regards,
--
Jeff



Post 45

Friday, May 16 - 2:16pmSanction this postReply
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My view, Jeff, is that because human beings, on average, are less than at their best, including when they address politics in their lives, it is not likely, though not impossible, that a fully free society be ever fashioned. But there is free will and thus the possibility of all members of a community getting it together all at once. But only a possibility. Yet as a model to keep in mind, the fully free society needs to be understood and explored even while its likelihood is meager.



Post 46

Friday, May 16 - 3:20pmSanction this postReply
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I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that civilization, as a process of individuation, is not long before it, like a few other aspects of human lives, reaches a point of singularity - with regards to the knowledge needed to grasp and impliment this freedom..... but - I will also say it will not be for everybody, that such a society will, while strong, be smaller when this is achieved, tho it may grow large again in later times......... the rest of humanity, however, will still wallow in their craving for dependency until, slowly, they in parts grasp that needed understanding.... but on a worldwide basis, no, there will always be those craving to be told what to do and thus wish to be ruled, and thus readily accepting rulers.... that is where the 'eternal vigilance' is required.....



Post 47

Friday, May 16 - 4:40pmSanction this postReply
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Shutting the Government Down, Oh My!

I seem to remember the federal government being shut down, around the time that Clinton met Lewinsky. Remember how this led to all of the planes falling out of the sky?

In addition to doubling the terms of length of federal offices, I would also suggest that Congress come into session only once every four years to pass a four year budget, which they could do in 30 days. If, after that thirty days, they have not passed a budget, the prior budget would stay in effect except with an across the board 10% reduction in all taxes and a 15% reduction in all spending.

The President could call the Senate into session when needed to confirm judges, pass treaties, or declare war. He could call the House into session when he wanted a law passed. But if he did so for a frivolous or unconstitutional reason, the House could impeach him.

Except, perhaps, (and I do say maybe) for developments in intellectual property rights, can anyone think of any federal law that has needed passing in the last century?

Idle hands do the devils work. The main temptation for corruption in congress is that they are in session and have nothing better to do.

Oh, and finally, no federal law should have any force for more than 25 years after it has been passed. If the law is so good, let it be passed and signed again every quarter century.

For some strange reason, our politicians call themselves "lawmakers." Let us disabuse them of that delusion.

Ted Keer



Post 48

Saturday, May 17 - 5:41amSanction this postReply
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Objectivism, Realism and Idealism

Long, long ago, in a Basic Principles opening session, someone asked Nathaniel Branden if "objectivism" is the same thing as "realism."  He said that with small letters, yes, but that as proper nouns, no.  On that basis, I would like to offer that the two recent posts by Machan and Malcom typify the realist-idealist dichotomy within objectivism.  Each answers part of the question; both leave something unaddressed. Generally and broadly, as stated by them here, neither "position" is very arguable.  I put that word in quotes because neither of them intended to articulate any consistent, validated thesis, but each was only expressing a broad-brush sentiment. That said, they do reflect themes of thought shared by many, certainly, I admit, by me.

Machan: My view, Jeff, is that because human beings, on average, are less than at their best, including when they address politics in their lives, it is not likely, though not impossible, that a fully free society be ever fashioned. But there is free will and thus the possibility of all members of a community getting it together all at once. But only a possibility. Yet as a model to keep in mind, the fully free society needs to be understood and explored even while its likelihood is meager.
Malcom:  I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that civilization, as a process of individuation, is not long before it, like a few other aspects of human lives, reaches a point of singularity - with regards to the knowledge needed to grasp and impliment this freedom..... but - I will also say it will not be for everybody, that such a society will, while strong, be smaller when this is achieved, tho it may grow large again in later times......... the rest of humanity, however, will still wallow in their craving for dependency until, slowly, they in parts grasp that needed understanding.... but on a worldwide basis, no, there will always be those craving to be told what to do and thus wish to be ruled, and thus readily accepting rulers.... that is where the 'eternal vigilance' is required.....
Tibor Machan's philosophical Idealism defines an a priori political platonism.  If only people were somehow "better" than they are, then we could enjoy a perfect world.  This is shared by Marxism, for instance, and fascism, of course, the building of a better world according to a plan.  Perhaps the radical difference between the liberal sociologists (Georg Simmel, Max Weber, Emile Durkheim) and the conservatives (Comte, Marx, duBois), is that for the liberals "conflict" was inherent in human relations.  Different people want different things.  Yet we all live together.  So, how do we resolve these conflicts?  Simmel looked to the markeplace.  Weber and Durkheim looked to what they considered more fundamental aspects of culture.  On the other hand, Marx et al., saw conflict as unnatural, a consequence of social evils, that once remediated, would allow humans to flourish in a better and happier world.

Malcom's view is closer to objective reality.  It is the "freedom in an unfree world" hypothesis.  You can make a better life for yourself.  As others do the same, things will generally improve.  However, as his mentor (mentrix?) Jane Jacobs so insightfully pointed out, old forms do not disappear.  Here and now, we still have monarchies, smithy forges, hunters and gatherers, sailing ships, and sunworshippers.  The fallacy is that these people who need to be ruled are now and always will be a danger to us.  It is true that as conservative (or criminal) types survive, the innocent can be victimized.  However, it is also true that even today, hikers are attacked by cougars and bears.  In other words, Malcom's realism magnifies the accidental because it ignores the objective impotence of evil.

At some level, I agree with both Machan and Malcom.  Just as an engineer can study a phenomenon and invent an application, we can look at human nature and suggest other ways to organize our settlements.  We can invent better political constittutions.  Obviously -- and I mean that: by inspection -- it is true that not everyone will do the same thing at the same time in the same way.  People differ.  (I have posted here on RoR the results of studies that show that individuality is inherent.)  So, I can be freer than you and she can be freer than he and they can choose to be ruled by a hereditary monarch who is the head of their church.  That's life.

However, it is also objectively true that any threats or dangers to us -- to me, to you, to those who are objectiviely rational and empirical in their philosophy of life -- are accidental.  It is not necessary for the rest of the world to become "Objectivist" (by whose standard? Kelley's? Peikoff's?  Mine?  Yours?) for you and others like you to enjoy a happy, meaningful and productive life here and now.  Not only has that always been true  -- true for Aristotle, for the Fuggers and Welsers, for Locke and even Hobbs, Jefferson and even Hamilton, Carnegie, Rockefeller, Ford, Edison, Rodgers, Gates...  -- you and I of course -- but since the publication of Atlas Shrugged 50 years ago, things have gotten a whole lot better for a lot of people.  That is the power of an idea.

The problematic consequence of the Machan-Malcom dichotomy is that either side of the equation leads to futility and a negative sense of life.  That feeds into the "true believer" pathology shared by mass movements:
  • once upon a time, there was a (nearly) perfect world
  • but an evil force stole it from us
  • we cannot win the battle in our own time
  • but if we all pull together, we can create a better world for our descendants.
It is true that we will not enjoy the better life of our descendants.  That is the curse of mortality.  However, you can improve your own life here and now. For me, part of making my life better is getting involved in local politics when and as such involvement is objectively good for me.  The profession of politics is only as corrupt as one's own choice of actions makes it.  That is true of any profession.




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Post 49

Saturday, May 17 - 6:41amSanction this postReply
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You make an interesting point - tho many would say it is you who is naive over the impotency of the danger. ..  freedom or liberty is always in context, so yes, in that respect I am free and indeed do live my life without much in the way of being bothered by Bush or Pelosi or whomever, even the local cougars on two feet....  but, in looking at the edge of history, when the matriarchal societies lost to those patriarchal ones coming from the north out of the ice age, lost because in the 1000 or so years of their existence, they became 'too' peaceful and thus unable to defend themselves against what was actually a viralent anti-life band of persons, who were quite willing to decimate entire groups of persons to achieve their dominating desires, inconcerned with whatever human benefits could have been gained by doing things differently - because they recognised it was an eithor/or in terms of culture - then I wonder how in the future, or even today, this defense can be achieved holding to the 'impotency' of evil... as ideas, yes, I do agree there is impotency involved, and as an individual, again agree evil is impotent to me..... yet, and here I concede a measure of perhaps tribal mentality, as aggregates of like-minded, I am troubled at just how impotent evil actions are.....



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Post 50

Saturday, May 17 - 9:34amSanction this postReply
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Once again someone presumes to know better what I think than I do.  The following sentence shows this: "Tibor Machan's philosophical Idealism defines an a priori political platonism."  Anyone who has had even the most cursory familiarity with my works knows that this is BS. And, of course, the author of this sentence offers no evidence at all in support of what he says. In nearly all my writings I go to considerable length to criticize both Idealism and Platonism--indeed, in my book Objectivity, Recovering Determinate Reality in Philosophy, Science, and Everyday Life (Ashgate, 2004), I spell out a detailed critique of idealism and Platonism in several branches of philosophy. But there are those who would rather work with fantasies than with reality. Don't know why they are so eager to derail discussions with such distortions.
(Edited by Machan on 5/17, 2:45pm)




Post 51

Saturday, May 17 - 7:37pmSanction this postReply
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Robert, I always appreciate your thoughtful replies. I agree with many of your perpectives antecedent to Post #49.  From my interest in archaic Greek coins, I know of examples where goddesses were replaced by gods, for instance in the coins from Rhodes, though, of course, Athena remained at Athens and Aphrodite (as a warrior goddess)  continued at Corinth.  The myth of the Rape of Europa has been suggested as a memory of the arrival of the sky-worshipping Aryans and subjugation of the earth-worshippers.  (It might be said that this conflict continues even today, with Objectivists on the side of the sky-worshipping horsemen.) 

The excavations at Catal Huyuk revealed a goddess flanked by two lions.  This is a favorite of modern wiccans and other tourists.  I discovered Catal Huyuk (metaphorically) from reading Jane Jacobs. As I have said elsewhere, she was extremely insightful.  All of that aside, I agree with you that when the horsemen come pounding down on your village theoretical discussions about the impotency of evil seem, well, academic, I guess.  Mohen-jo-daro has also been suggested as a culture that found peaceful attainment before being ground under the hooves of the sky-worshippers.

The concentration camps and aerial bombardments of our own time are stark witnesses to the power of nihilism.

That said, I agree with you that your freedom here and now is personal, while, of course, the wider problems remain to be solved. 




Post 52

Saturday, May 17 - 7:50pmSanction this postReply
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Politics is NOT a Profession

"For my money the one profession that has indeed become completely, utterly morally irredeemable is politics" -TM

I paraphrase Rand: (I think appropriately, see post 19, & AR Lexicon.)
"[S]tatists [see] no difference between the functions of government and the functions of industry, between force and production[.]"

Surely we can agree that one can make a profession of military service. And there is an argument to be made in favor of professional judges, although I think it is a weak one.

But "lawmaker" is NOT a profession. It has NO qualifications except residency, age, and the ability to signify yes or no. Even Ted Kennedy can still do this. A profession indicates some level of skill and some marketable product. People do pay for the services of security guards, i.e., the police or military, and arbitrators and umpires, i.e., judges.

But who sanely and willingly pays for busybodies and backseat drivers?

What if we held a Congress, and nobody came? We need people to ratify treaties, confirm judges and pass budgets - perhaps once every four years as I have argued above.

Do we need any new laws?

I move we adjourn, sine die.



Post 53

Saturday, May 17 - 7:57pmSanction this postReply
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Dr. Machan, I understand fully your bridling at being accused of platonism.  You would probably prefer being accused of improper behavior at a petting zoo -- and rightfully so.  Nevertheless, this literally "idealistic" notion of a "perfect society" permeates Objectivism and our culture in general.  To the Puritans it was the Augustinian "city on a hill" the City of God, the pinnacle of man's achievement on Earth.   After all, Rand herself titled one anthology, Capitalism: the Unknown Ideal

Idealism holds that truths are rational, not empiricall.  Indeed, the real world is disappointing to Objectivists.  How could someone like Gyorgy Soros make billions of dollars in the currency markets with his collectivist ideology?  Also, why doesn't Bill Gates wake up?  How dare he give away billions of dollars as if he never read Atlas Shrugged?  Is Donald Trump the best we have to offer?

So, Objectivists -- including you -- retreat into Idealism.  You yourself said several times that "in a free society" such and such would be true.  Unlike the inventor whose motor draws its power from the laws of reality, Objectivists draw their power from faith in a perfect world.

Myself, as I advocate for market alternatives to government institutions, I point to real world examples. 

I found an old Federal study from 1967.  It said that one-third of the protection services were offered by private entities.  Today, that is inverted: government police are one-third of the market.  That is realism.
It is how things are in this life.

You -- among many others -- posit an ideal perfect a priori world in which people are different than they are.  That, to me, is platonism.  If you have a different definition, I am all ears.




Post 54

Sunday, May 18 - 6:06amSanction this postReply
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Ted, I am going to take your points in some sequence as they get closer to the root of the problem.
... no difference between the functions of government and the functions of industry, between force and production...
We have lost sight of the origins of the American political system, which is now nearly universal.  You can find it summarized neatly in Roberts Rules of Order.  I know: that was 19th century British.  Furthermore, the actual rules of order of the U.S. Congress are different than this. Yet, that is my point: the rules of government business -- of the business operations of any governing body -- were worked out informally in the philosophical societies of the 18th century.  European governments of the 18th century made fun of the USA because we had "secretaries" and "presidents" whereas they had ministers and princes.  The minister was a cleric (clerk),the churchman who advised the (nominally illiterate) warrior prince.  Our nation was founded on a different basis entirely.  It changed the world so completely that we fail to see what life was life before.  Again, any governing body -- the board of directors and the stockholders of a corporation -- follows these kinds of rules.  Where is election by a majority written in the stars?  What natural law defines when a super-majority (2/3 or 3/4 or unaminity) is required?  The answer is that these are worked out by trial and error.  Rules change.  That is politics: the engagement of those rules of order and the making, repealing or remaking of them. 
What if we held a Congress, and nobody came? We need people to ratify treaties, confirm judges and pass budgets - perhaps once every four years as I have argued above.
We have a stolen concept here, Ted.  As long as you admit to the need for government, you are going to have a government.  I have written here about New Mexico.  They have a part-time legislature. 
Each regular session of the legislature shall begin annually at 12:00 noon on the third Tuesday of January. Every regular session of the legislature convening during an odd-numbered year shall remain in session not to exceed sixty days, and every regular session of the legislature convening during an even-numbered year shall remain in session not to exceed thirty days. No special session of the legislature shall exceed thirty days
Yet, New Mexico is much poorer than Arizona.  You probably cannot appreciate how similar the two states are, certainly in the terms most often used by collectivists.  They were originally one territory, divided north and south.  After the Civil War, they were divided east and west.  It made no difference: same lands, same peoples.  But Arizona is prosperous and New Mexico is poor.  A part-time legislature is no panacea.  The differences are cultural.  Philosophy is everything.  Political change -- so called -- can only come as a result of (not before) philosophical change.
But "lawmaker" is NOT a profession. It has NO qualifications except residency, age, and the ability to signify yes or no.
To be a mechanical engineer, all you need to do is tighten bolts and oil gears?  You miss the point.  The ability to perceive a complex social situation and summarize it succinctly is a special skill.  You also confuse the politicians with the lawmakers.  They are two different sets.  Politicians do not write laws.  Some have the skill, admittedly, but most do not, nor do they need to.  That is what the legislative service bureau does: makes sure that the language of a bill creates an enforcible law.  It does not always work.  Amendments happen in committee and on the floor.  The fact remains that in the sense used here in this disucssion, politicians do not write laws.

Now, actually, I am engaged in the review and rewriting of some local rules.  I serve on the city/county community corrections advisory board.  My immediate committee assignment is to bring the bylaws in line with the enabling legislation.  You think that this is not a "special" skill and it may not be.  Perhaps all that are needed are fundamental literacy and basic civics.  Those seem to be in short supply in our society. 

It is a strong argument against government that most people do not vote.  I said above that we have governments because "people" want them.  Which people?  Who?  When?  How did they express this want?  Well...  Decisions are made by those who show up.  If you read the constitutional history of the American colonies, you will see how they evolved a methodology over 150 years, five generations.  The first compacts were detailed in the extreme and yet limited in effect.  By 1789, the process had been refined.  The present Constitution of the United States was one example, but the colonies and states had their own independent histories.  As you said, each of the 50 states is a laboratory.
 A profession indicates some level of skill and some marketable product.

Maybe.  Maybe it should.  In fact, a "profession" only means that the practitioners of an occupation rule themselves by professing an oath.  There is no oath of office for carpenters. 

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 5/18, 6:16am)




Post 55

Sunday, May 18 - 2:09pmSanction this postReply
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With Friends Like These

Senator Chuck Hagel (R) NE is on CSPAN2 advocating foreign aid as an "investment," mandatory one year "public service" because "young people want to be part of something bigger than themselves,' and regulations on eating, smoking, drinking and exercise because it is counterproductive to our "investment" in medicare and medicaid. This is as he hawks his book, America: Our Next Chapter and positions himself with flattery to be John McCain's running mate. A true professional.



Post 56

Sunday, May 18 - 3:53pmSanction this postReply
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Professional Lawmakers my Equus asinus!

Michael I'll be a little more polite and answer just two points here, rather than candystriping you to death.

(1) On "profession" you confuse etymological origin with accepted meaning. That "profession" used to mean one who professed an oath is irrelevant and your objection a non-sequitur. "Quick" used to mean alive, from the same root as Latin vivens and Greek bios. "Nice" originally meant ignorant. The proctologist sticks his finger up your arse, not your donkey - if you want to mince words. You are not ignorant of the wordgames you are playing. Stop being so nice.

You may not believe in such a thing as a professional carpenter, but I doubt you'd hire any less.

(2) As for "lawmakers" this is what congressmen are called by themselves, by the press, and by everyone else. The fact that they hire scribes to do their dirty work is due to their own Kennedian ignorance and the complexity of the unnecessary and unconstitutional laws they pass. Name any three good laws of the last forty years, the text of which you have read in full, and which you support and find necessary and constitutional, and I'll admit that we do need lawmakers in whatever sense you wish to give that word.





Post 57

Sunday, May 18 - 4:26pmSanction this postReply
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Michael: "As often as I have agreed with the substance or intention of Phil Osborn's many insightful posts, I have to stand foursquare against his ringing endorsement of democracy. There is nothing special in it. Moreover, even among Objectivists who should know better, the word "democracy" has been substitituted for "constitutional republic." No true Objectivist could be in favor of democracy -- certainly not one unlimited by a strict constitution."

I used "democracy" generically to refer to any state in which each citizen has an equal power via voting to determine what actions and policies the state pursues, whether via direct democracy, as in the initiative process, or through representative democracy with a constitution. I'm not giving any kind of "ringing endorsement" of any form of state.

I just think that anything short of full democracy, trying to second-guess the electorate or exclude certain people from voting or running for office, merely creates a ruling and ruled class division, which is inherently dangerous and subject to corruption. It's a lousy way to run things, but show me something better - restricting the options to monopoly states.



Post 58

Sunday, May 18 - 9:38pmSanction this postReply
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Ted Keer:  Name any three good laws of the last forty years, the text of which you have read in full, and which you support and find necessary and constitutional, and I'll admit that we do need lawmakers in whatever sense you wish to give that word.

On April 2, 1974, voters in Ann Arbor overruled the council's decision by amending the city charter with the famous Section 16.2, which, in somewhat altered form, remains in effect today.[13] The charter section reinstated the $5 civil-infraction penalty for possession, use, giving away, or selling of marijuana and prohibited city police from enforcing the more stringent state laws. The same day, the neighboring city of Ypsilanti adopted a similar measure.[14] In adopting the charter amendment, Ann Arbor voters asserted that the provisions were necessary to ensure the "just and equitable legal treatment of the citizens of this community, and in particular of the youth of this community present as university students or otherwise."[15]
Part of Section 16.2 declared that no city police officer "shall complain of the possession, control, use, giving away, or sale of marijuana or cannabis to any other authority except the Ann Arbor city attorney; and the city attorney shall not refer any said complaint to any other authority for prosecution."[16] In doing so, the provision effectively denied state courts the opportunity to declare the measure unconstitutional, as had occurred in 1972, since a test-case opportunity would thus never come before a state judge. --
wikipedia "Marijuana Laws in Ann Arbor, Michigan"

Ted, I dare you to rub your tummy while patting your head.  My point is that I do not have to meet any challenge you issue just because you tie it to the topic. However, I like you, so here are two more.

Amendment 21 - Amendment 18 Repealed. Ratified 12/5/1933.
1. The eighteenth article of amendment to the Constitution of the United States is hereby repealed.
2. The transportation or importation into any State, Territory, or possession of the United States for delivery or use therein of intoxicating liquors, in violation of the laws thereof, is hereby prohibited.
3. The article shall be inoperative unless it shall have been ratified as an amendment to the Constitution by conventions in the several States, as provided in the Constitution, within seven years from the date of the submission hereof to the States by the Congress.

Amendment 27 - Limiting Congressional Pay Increases. Ratified 5/7/1992. History
No law, varying the compensation for the services of the Senators and Representatives, shall take effect, until an election of Representatives shall have intervened.





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Post 59

Sunday, May 18 - 10:02pmSanction this postReply
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Why is it that my own statement of what I think is dismissed and an entirely different one taken as expressing my views? I do not speak of "ideal" societies, nor of "perfect" ones.  I speak of the the best or optimal possible society or legal order, one that is is attainable but not very likely to be attained, sort of like an optimal marriage or best possible lecture or book.  None of this is idealistic, perfectionistic, nada. (I am most fond of the view that the perfect is the enemy of the good!) Alas this too will probably be evaded in favor of calling me a Platonist and/or idealist.   



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