About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unread


Post 0

Tuesday, June 24 - 5:49pmSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
Hi Gennady,

You have several articles in the queue, of which this was not the first.  I posted this one first though, as it's so very true. Thanks!

Ethan




Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 1

Wednesday, June 25 - 7:35amSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
You're so right. Amen, Mr. Stolyarov.



Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 2

Wednesday, June 25 - 12:10pmSanction this postReply
Link
Edit

Mr. Dawe,

 

Thank you for publishing this piece. Your timing in doing so was excellent, by the way. I have just released a video version of this very essay, which can be watched here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Fy5fb9C0y8

 

Ms. Chipman,


Thank you for your kind words. I am happy, as always, that you read and enjoyed my article.

 

Sincerely,
Gennady Stolyarov II
Editor-in-Chief, The Rational Argumentator: http://rationalargumentator.com
Writer, Associated Content: http://www.associatedcontent.com/user/46796/g_stolyarov_ii.html
Author, The Best Self-Help is Free: http://rationalargumentator.com/selfhelpfree.html      
Author, The Progress of Liberty Blog: http://progressofliberty.today.com/       




Post 3

Wednesday, June 25 - 3:31pmSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
Great video Gennady!



Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 4

Wednesday, June 25 - 6:51pmSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
Hi Gennady,

I really enjoyed your article and agreed whole heartily with your view of civility as being a powerful weapon.   Whenever I come across an on-line discussion where one of the participants is civil I generally give his view point greater credence.  My reasoning is that only a person who completely understands what is being talked about, has already studied all the the arguments for and against and is therefore completely confident in his position is likely to be civil.  He knows he is right so has no reason to be uncivil.  Conversely, a person who is uncivil, comes across to me as lacking confidence in his position and resorts to insults because he really isn't sure if his arguments are sound.  That is why I always enjoyed reading Chris Sciabarra when he use to post here years ago. He rarely if ever was uncivil, even when his opponent was, and as a result it gave me the impression he really had the stronger position in the discussion.

Gerald 




Post 5

Wednesday, June 25 - 10:55pmSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
Excellent. Bravo.



Post 6

Thursday, June 26 - 1:26amSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
Possibly no-one on RoR more needs to read and heed this than myself. I certainly agree with the substance of the article. And I think Gennady Stolyarov's essay makes many little-understood yet very important points. And yet:

Altho' civility is indeed a powerful argumentative weapon, so too is provocation, daring, and audacity. And this last weapon may well be far more fun to wield. I certainly enjoy a deft and deadly rhetorical flame-thrower from time to time.

Too much effete Albert J. Nock and James Madison -- and not enough robust Christopher Hitchens, Joe Queenan, and Hunter Thompson -- often doesn't hold my interest, or make me want to think and learn. At some point excessive politeness becomes a kind of "banality of evil." The Objectivist movement in particular often suffers from too much dessicated, airless, bloodless Vulcanism and not enough fiery, impassioned, hot-blooded Klingonism. (Altho' it's worth noting that the malicious, bizarre cultists and brain-dead, empty-souled fanatics at ARI are not properly or truly provocative or Klingon-like in their argumentation.)

One good reason for holding a discussion/debate may be not to persuade others, but to merely listen or persuade/educate oneself. One may want to test one's theories and/or rhetorical skills or styles. This can often be efficaciously done by employing an abrasive, aggressive, challenging manner. By being contrary and provocative, it often motivates the other person to put forth his best argument in an energetic and spirited attempt to absolutely demolish his impudent ignorant challenger. This may teach and elevate the rude rascal. Of course, Gennady is right to note you need to stick to substantive arguments, and not just deliver personal insults -- lest you merely get useless, content-free insults back.

As for how one treats one's fellow man generally, I agree with this piece and vote for being a gentleman always. This means being respectful and polite (at least initially and overall), as well as empathetic and friendly. It may even mean being openly fun-loving and pleasure-seeking. But I'm not sure how much this aristocratic gentility translates into being purely civil in most intellectual face-offs.

I, for one, never care to win arguments with dolts and low-lifes. Thus I try to never have them (anymore! ;-) ). Maybe I wish to occasionally win flame-wars and insultathons with them, but not serious debates. But I question how much people of intelligence, education, virtue, and quality really need to be "handled" or treated with delicacy. Maybe such folk find excess civility a waste of time, and an affectation. They may even find it confusing and disruptive, if not patronizing and insulting.

I'm truly sorry to seem so negative toward an Objectivist genius like Gennady Stolyarov, but I'd simply be interested to hear what he has to say in response. Or anyone else. Maybe I can be significantly educated and enlightened here.

On many occasions I truly enjoy "uncivil" argumentators. I seem to learn from them too. Rude, crude, vulgar, low-class, bad-taste interlocutors like South Park, Family Guy, Francois Rabelais, Howard Stern, Sam Kinison, Richard Pryor, George Carlin, Lenny Bruce, etc. are nothing less than refreshing to me, and seem to improve my mind and spirit wonderfully. Altho' most probably disagree, I consider them to be thinkers and teachers as well. Their lack of displayed respect and politeness to their intellectual enemies and opposing views is tonic to me. From my perspective, Ayn Rand was often thus.

I may have quite a bit more to say, but I don't want to overly tax people's patience. They might think they have to refute me point-by-point and line-by-line -- and they absolutely don't have to. Any small correction or improvement in my views would be appreciated.

Altho' it might not seem so, I hugely accept and agree with the thrust of this essay's views. I even know from recent bitter experience that these arguments are largely sound and correct.




Post 7

Thursday, June 26 - 5:40amSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
Kyrel,

I'm truly sorry to seem so negative toward an Objectivist genius like Gennady Stolyarov, but I'd simply be interested to hear what he has to say in response. Or anyone else.
That's a civil way to put it.   ;-)

I actually agree with you, Kyrel, about the contextual merit of a being incivil. There's a certain pretense involved in being the most "civil" debator. One may mistakenly presume one is more right, only because of being more civil. Some situations require behavior that wouldn't be normally categorized as "civil."

Ed




Post 8

Wednesday, June 25 - 7:56pmSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
Gerald,

Thank you for your excellent post.

I agree with you completely, and my observations have been quite along the lines of yours.

Sincerely,
Gennady Stolyarov II
Editor-in-Chief, The Rational Argumentator: http://rationalargumentator.com
Writer, Associated Content: http://www.associatedcontent.com/user/46796/g_stolyarov_ii.html
Author, The Best Self-Help is Free: http://rationalargumentator.com/selfhelpfree.html      
Author, The Progress of Liberty Blog: http://progressofliberty.today.com/       




Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 9

Thursday, June 26 - 10:50amSanction this postReply
Link
Edit

Kyrel,


Thank you for your thought-provoking comments, as always.

 

I think that the kind of daring, provocative argumentation you describe does have its place – when done skillfully and amusingly. An excellent example of this is Penn & Teller’s show, B. S.!, which I enjoy watching even when I disagree with Penn & Teller on their particular views. Why are they so effective? First, their incivility seems almost a mockery of itself. They curse so frequently and often in such silly ways that anyone can tell that they do not really harbor any spite in them and are rather amused by their own antics. Furthermore, they have made a joke out of their own incivility by suggesting that if they had criticized certain people substantively, they would get sued, but by cursing, they could avoid such liability.

 

Moreover, Penn & Teller aim their self-mocking profanities at such a general audience that it becomes virtually impossible for anyone (except perhaps some of the people interviewed on their show) to take the insults personally. And Penn & Teller do include a fair degree of substantive commentary and interviews with sources whom they respect on their show as well. Overall, what they do is highly effective and entertaining.

 

I think that this style of argumentation has limited applicability however. Here are instances in which it fails:


1) One-on-one conversation or conversation in small groups, where it is far too easy for people to become offended, and where many people neither expect nor seek highly provocative exchanges that involve the passions too intensely.

 

2) Uncivil or insulting behavior by people who do not know how to do it artfully and with style – and to distance it from their own anger. It is one thing to curse without spite as Penn & Teller do; it is another to curse out of rage, hatred, or a feeling of being maligned – for instance. Many people, as you have noted, substitute insults and profanity for a lack of substance or, as Gerald has pointed out, for insecurity regarding the strength of their own position.

 

3) Situations where disagreements are small, all things considered, and have not yet escalated into an active ideological confrontation (i.e., protest rallies, money being spent on campaigns, and mass media advertisements). It is necessary to keep in mind that mockery is a last resort for those who absolutely cannot be persuaded and continue to actively do harm. For instance, I see no problem in mocking Hillary Clinton or Barbara Boxer, but if a neighbor of mine were to express even enthusiastic support for their policies, I would try to talk to him civilly and calmly and figure out why he believes what he does and perhaps inform him about what Clinton, Boxer, et. al. are really up to.

 

Two of my favorite authors – Molière and Voltaire – used satire that would really have deeply hurt and mocked the subjects of its criticism, considering the cultural environment and attitudes of their time. But their mockery was justified, I believe, because they were confronting people who engaged in vicious religious and political oppression. They were not merely confronting abstract disagreements, but actual clergymen and governments who undertook large-scale persecution.

 

But when one communicates directly to fairly ordinary people who are not in a position to inflict actual harm, I believe incivility to be unjustified. What do you think of the distinctions and qualifications I have made here?

 

Sincerely,
Gennady Stolyarov II
Editor-in-Chief, The Rational Argumentator: http://rationalargumentator.com
Writer, Associated Content: http://www.associatedcontent.com/user/46796/g_stolyarov_ii.html
Author, The Best Self-Help is Free: http://rationalargumentator.com/selfhelpfree.html      
Author, The Progress of Liberty Blog: http://progressofliberty.today.com/       

 




Post 10

Thursday, June 26 - 2:19pmSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
I'll take this article as a civil rebuke, and try to be better-mannered here in the future. Thanks for an excellent post.



Post 11

Friday, June 27 - 7:14pmSanction this postReply
Link
Edit

Gennady Stolyarov -- I generally agree with your Post 9 remarks and analysis -- altho' I seem not to have overly strong views on it. But I certainly enjoy the social satirists Moliere, Voltaire, and Penn & Teller. My greatest impression seems to be that sometimes it takes more than indirect mockery and genteel satire to effectively win the argument and advance the truth. 

 

I definitely like the idea of civility as a powerful "weapon." I never thought of it that way before.

 

There's much to be said rhetorically, and in seeking the truth, for sticking to the substance and facts of the debate, and focusing strictly on the issues at hand, while ignoring most persiflage and ad hominem attacks. This tends to convince the third-party audience, as well as even the person offering the insults at times. A classy, uplifted, gentlemanly demeanor is generally quite persuasive.  

 

Both civility and mockery are rhetorical weapons. So too satire, provocation, understatement, litotes, irony, humor, etc.

 

I think the strongest argumentative weapon of all is truth. One needs to figure it out, and then speak it aloud. Hopefully eloquently and elegantly. But also sometimes powerfully and passionately. 

 

--Just a precis of my views on this.     

 

 

(Edited by Kyrel Zantonavitch on 6/28, 7:11am)




Post to this thread
User ID Password reminder or create a free account.