About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unread


Sanction: 2, No Sanction: 0
Post 0

Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 6:47amSanction this postReply
Link
Edit

After reading over the "extreme hypothetical" thread, I figured I post this. I'm curious to know what one should look for or do to identify whether another entity possesses volition. Same with reason.

How can we tell if aliens or non-human animals can reason? How can we tell if they are volitional?

I've read many other sources that address this topic, but I'm curious to see what O'ists think.

Jordan




Post 1

Monday, September 20, 2004 - 9:29amSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
Jordan,

First of all, let's acknowledge at the outset that those that reason ... will be volitional. Therefore, if we can discover reason, then we've confirmed both faculties in one fell swoop.

Contrary to those contemporary disintegrators who claim that they are professional philosophers merely because of credentials, the hallmark of reason is system-building.

The tip-off for noting system-building will appear to us as "wisdom," which is nothing more than holding context on first principles and final ends when dealing with particulars.

What the agent will do - to give away that they use reason - is to take a particular truth or "success" and apply it in a different situation. This would not work if the agent just applied the result at a different "time" - as this is something which mere "memory" can account for. And it needs to be a "different situation" to bypass the capacity for mere "association" - which may still show-up in anti-conceptual, concrete-bound agents.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

Ed



Post 2

Monday, September 20, 2004 - 11:07amSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
Hi Ed,

Thanks for responding. I accept that reason will be volitional. Makes me wonder whether O'ists would accept volition without reason (but let's leave that for another time). Let's just concentrate on identifying reason.

What the agent will do - to give away that they use reason - is to take a particular truth or "success" and apply it in a different situation.

Let me see if I understand by offering a concrete example. A test subject correctly identifies that there are 8 pens in front of her. Then at a different sitting the same test subject correctly identifies that there are 8 apples in front of her. This demonstrates that she can apply "8" in different situations. Thus, she can use reason.

Would you agree with this? Perhaps you'd say this indicates only association? If you disagree with my example, please offer me another concrete example.

Jordan

EDIT: I should add that I'm familiar with "crow-epistemology," so perhaps I should've offered an example that didn't deal with numbers. And I don't want anyone take me as concrete-bound as a response to my request for a concrete example. I ask for concrete examples because that's what science experiments require.

(Edited by Jordan on 9/20, 11:10am)

(Edited by Jordan on 9/20, 2:45pm)

(Edited by Jordan on 9/20, 2:46pm)




Post 3

Monday, September 20, 2004 - 2:50pmSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
Hmph. I guess I can't edit the same post twice. I wanted to add: "replace '8' with 'red' if you prefer." And less importantly, I know I neglected to write "to" before "take." Oh well. If anyone knows how I can edit the same post twice, do tell.

Jordan




Post 4

Monday, September 20, 2004 - 2:50pmSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
Hmph. I guess I can't edit the same post twice. I wanted to add: "replace '8' with 'red' if you prefer." And less importantly, I know I neglected to write "to" before "take." Oh well. If anyone knows how I can edit the same post twice, do tell.

Jordan




Post 5

Monday, September 20, 2004 - 2:50pmSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
And now duplicated posts and cannot delete them. DAMN!

Jordan

(Edited by Jordan on 9/20, 2:53pm)




Post 6

Monday, September 20, 2004 - 6:08pmSanction this postReply
Link
Edit

Jordan,

 

Here is a summary list of the variables necessary for the identification of reason - and therefore, volition - in living organisms (hereafter: agents):

 ---------------------------

1.  first principles (implicit or explicit identification of axiomatic truths)

2.  final ends (identification of behavioral teleology – goal-oriented actions)

3.  particulars (a range of stimuli - against which to measure a range of response options)

  ---------------------------

 

Jordan, your example – and even its modification (changing “8” to “red”) - is guilty of assuming too much, and uncovering too little.  For the unmodified version (which you yourself found suspect), in order to get to the number 8, a “crow-bound” agent would need to rely on the concepts of numbers (a hypothetical agent able to directly perceive 8 unique things however - would not need such advanced mental action). 

 

But, changing the modifier from “8” to “red” uncovers another dilemma – red, as a color, has no significance except as contrasted against a background of non-red things (considering distinctions: the “difference” makes all the difference in the world).  Identification of red is only possible/productive when some things are red, some not (and especially when this difference makes a real difference to the frustration/satisfaction of the agent, when contrasted against a background of their goal-oriented actions).

 

 ---------------------------

Variable #1 – background, axiomatic truths

Returning to the Big 3 (numbered above), we need to add detail to your example in order to recognize (inferentially; through the agent’s behavior) that axiomatic truths are at least implicitly acknowledged by the agent.  The permanence of objects is an example – even 18 month-old infant/toddlers realize object permanence (“magic” impresses them, causing statistically-significant increases in “duration of stare” (measure of disbelief that objects can disappear/reappear).

 

Variable #2 - ends

Also, we need details on a goal or end that the agent aims at – such as the kind that is immediately obvious to us when we see a cheetah that is chasing a pronghorn antelope at highway speeds.

 

Variable #3 - particulars

This is the one variable that your example touched on, though not in enough detail.  Your example was so watered-down that it would fail to intoxicate us with the intellectual understanding that we are after – even if repeated, over and over (our stomachs would fill before we could get a high enough concentration of the “good stuff” to cross our blood-brain barrier).  You’ve got some particulars here, but – anyway you slice it – you only have 2 groups of similars (there’s a skeleton there, but not enough meat).  For starters, the example requires a group of “differents” for each group of similars.

 

 ---------------------------

Jordan, as you can see, this (decisively identifying reason in living organisms) is no small task.  We can’t just put some blocks on the floor, show an organism that they can be stacked on top of each other, and then measure how high the stack gets (to infer about the organism’s reliance on the various laws of physics at play). 

 

Some version of block-stacking though – with blocks so different from each other that they lead to a wide range of consequences when used in various combinations – is the best example I can come up with on such short notice.





Post 7

Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 7:48amSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
Hi Ed,

I still wouldn't know how to construct a scientific test, based on your variables, that would establish reason, much less volition. I don't have any big beef with your variables; I just don't know how to test for them combined. Like you said, it's no small task.

Anyway, I'll recap to see if I understand what you're saying. Object permanence indicates identification of first principles. Hot pursuit (of some sort) indicates goal orientation. And on particulars...well...I'm not sure what you had in mind there. Maybe you would've preferred my suggested test to have a test subject select the group of 8 pens from 10 groups each with different numbers of different kinds of things (like 4 erasers, 7 paper clips, etc.). Then provide a different set of 10 groups, each with differing kinds and numbers of things than before (like 3 oranges instead of 4 erasers, 5 toothpicks instead of 7 paper clips, etc.), except there is still a group of 8 things but this time 8 apples instead of 8 pens.

Jordan




Post to this thread
User ID Password reminder or create a free account.