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Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 11:13pmSanction this postReply
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Since this is my first post I’ll include a concise preface: college student, don’t consider myself an objectivist or anything other than just a thinker, like to argue, despise the “sex and beer” mentality of the world around me.

Now to my post. I was discussing personal philosophies with a friend a while ago and he commented that I was very Buddhist. In the past I’ve only given Buddhism a once over and it didn’t seem to resonate with me so after hearing his comment I decided to look deeper. After searching this site a bit I found some mention of Buddhism in relation to objectivism (Buddhists and Objectivists), but the types of Buddhism that were discussed were from a religious Buddhism perspective so I’d like to talk a bit about Buddhism from a philosophical perspective.

An in depth discussion is obviously beyond the scope of a single post (or even a single thread) so I’ll try to just hit the highlights. I don’t know how to approach this without introducing Buddhism a bit so I’ll spend a little space on that before I start discussing. Also, my understanding of Buddhism is extremely elementary so if any gross errors are made you have my apologies in advance.

Firstly, a bit about Buddhism. I think it should known that the types of Buddhism prevalent today are what the Buddha explicitly wanted to avoid. The core of what has become Buddhism is nothing more than a man’s observations about the world, and for as long as the Buddha lived that is how the core was presented. Only after his death did his thoughts become formalized and religious-ized, although definitely more loosely than some other religions. The core, what he called dharma, is what I want to discuss.

A bit about dharma. The primary aspect of dharma is the unhealthy attachment to fleeting pleasures. The recognition and solution to this unhealthy attachment are called the Four Noble Truths. The best way I’ve heard this described is this: Suppose your lover is giving you a massage. While this is happening you realize that this massage feels great and you don’t want it to end, so you start thinking of ways to prolong the massage. The longer the massage goes on the more frantically you try to find a way to keep it from ending, but it must end sometime. When it does you realize that you’ve completely missed the pleasure that comes from the massage and you’re left with nothing (except maybe what comes after the massage). The (crudely expressed) idea here is: shut up and enjoy it while it lasts. Also, recognize that there is more to life than fleeting pleasures (not to imply that you should shun them) and seek more meaningful pleasures (e.g., enjoying the company of your lover).

To embrace this enjoy-it-while-it-lasts mindset the Buddha suggested the Eightfold Path. Briefly, this path is marked by (1) right views, (2) right intent, (3) right speech, (4) right conduct, (5) right livelihood, (6) right effort, (7) right mindfulness, and (8) right concentration. A little less briefly: (1) reason is your guide, use it; (2) the only way progress will be made is if life is approached honestly and because you want to; (3) don’t be a hypocrite in speech; (4) don’t be a hypocrite in action; (5) don’t be a hypocrite in occupation; (6) persevere; (7) “Our life is shaped by our mind; we become what we think.”; (8) focus, avoid wasteful thinking.

Now for what I wanted to talk about. There is a great deal of semantic confusion that has come about from multiple translations over the millennia and this confusion is main reason Buddhism didn’t appeal to me when I first looked at it, particularly the view of the self and interactions with others.

The self. A common concept present in Buddhism is the idea of “no-self.” For a long time this made no sense to me, until I found out what was meant by “self.” This self being referred to is the idea of an eternal, unchanging part of a person. Instead, people are constantly changing because we are constantly being bombarded by stimuli which we react to and therefore change in some way. This idea of a fluid personality I agree with. It is not a question of if the individual exists, but a question of is the individual stagnant or not.

Another common idea in modern Buddhism is altruism. However, I believe this to be a misinterpretation of the ideas presented. Benevolence is clearly encouraged by the dharma; altruism is not. The idea is to be aware of how your actions affect the world around you, and to avoid doing harm to yourself and others. Altruism clearly is harmful to the self, but also to others in that it effectively weakens everyone it touches. A man living off of another’s labor gains nothing of meaning, value, or understanding and thereby only harms himself.

The idea of interdependence in Buddhism can lead some (like my friend) to support socialistic/communistic systems. Just that you must buy crops from someone to eat doesn’t imply that you can forcibly take those crops. Again, this is a misinterpretation, or at least an ill-thought out view, of the concepts. I don’t have to tell you folks the benefits of capitalism (if properly implemented) and, going back to interactions, for any good intentions of the socialistic/communistic views they are harmful to all on a fundamental level. Contrary to popular belief, capitalism recognizes interdependence (why else would we need a system of interaction?) and simply sets down rules to prevent harm for anyone (very important in dharma).

There is much more to talk about but after trying to summarize Buddhism I’ve forgotten a lot, and writing this at 1 a.m. probably doesn’t help. Until I remember something this is all. Why did I write this? I thought it was interesting the number of connections I saw between objectivism and rationally interpreted dharma, so I thought I’d share it with someone. And sorry about the length, I didn’t plan on it being this long.



Post 1

Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 12:38amSanction this postReply
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Welcome, Sarah House.

You didn't ask any questions, but I would like to share my perspective on your post.

Morality
What you are describing is that Buddha considered negative rights as the correct moral rights. Also it seems like Buddha is against positive rights, because they will infringe on people's negative rights. Here is a short description of negative rights from wikipedia:

"Negative rights are usually not directly economic in nature, although the right to security in private property is considered an economic negative right in that it entails freedom from theft or state confiscation. Other negative rights include freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, the right to bear arms, freedom from violent crime and freedom from involuntary servitude."

I agree with negative rights. I do not want anyone to initiate force on me, and I think it is best that I do not initiate force on others, for everyone's long term best interest.

Nihilism vs Goals
From what I know, buddhism is a form of nihilism. Buddha considered life as suffering, and he thought the greatest thing to do was to cease to have desires. When a buddhist reaches a state of enlightenment, they are peacefully sitting or laying about, doing absolutely nothing, and they just... nothing... die. Buddha never found a reason to do anything.

Objectivism on the other hand considers life a worthwhile positive thing, and considers many desires to be good things. This place is called "Sense of Life" Objectivism after all. Objectivism bases itself on an individual's choice to live a long and happy life. After a person makes this choice, they now have needs, and goals, passions, morals... its quite different than nihilism.

So I would say the biggest difference between objectivism and buddhism is that buddha never found a reason to do anything, while objectivists have.

Capitalism and Socialism
Capitalism is derived from negative rights. It is morally just and best for everyone (except freeloaders). Socialism creates more freeloaders, and reduces productivity by removing the reward for being productive. Socialism has to remove the reward for being productive by force. Taxes are a form of socialism...
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 3/24, 12:56am)




Post 2

Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 12:55amSanction this postReply
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Sarah,

I would also like to mention that Buddhism is not necessarily evil. As long as a person respects negative rights, they are in harmony of interests with me. Never the less, I would prefer that you were an objectivist rather than a nihilist, because I would benefit from your productivity.

Thanks. I hope the best for your future.
Dean Michael Gores



Post 3

Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 1:29amSanction this postReply
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Hi Sarah, and welcome. You are an intelligent young woman. Keep looking for your answers and you are sure to find them.

I'm not particularly interest in Bhuddism because I find the ideas of Aristotle and Rand to be more focused on reality. That said, Bhuddism does somewhat encourage a focus on individuality and living on this earth. You could do a lot worse than that.


A bit about dharma. The primary aspect of dharma is the unhealthy attachment to fleeting pleasures.


I want to ask whoever said this: what's necessarily unhealthy about it? Also, using the word "fleeting" confuses the issue. It really means that we should believe that all pleasure is fleeting but through "acceptance" we will feel an eternal pleasure. (?) Is that anywhere close?

But that can't be true because all pleasure is fleeting. Right? Where do we experience this eternal pleasure?

We don't.

It doesn't make sense.


An individual must focus earnestly on where he finds himself (metaphysics). He must verify his claims (epistemology). He must decide what to do/how to behave (ethics). It takes a great deal of courage and hard work to face those necessities.

Welcome to the abyss. Legend has it that magnificent things await you on the other side. 




Post 4

Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 1:35amSanction this postReply
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Oh, this is Karma! I just said in another thread that next someone here was going to call Buddha a proto-objectivist.

A big stumbling block no one has brought up yet is that Buddhists always say that the goal is to lose your ego.
Lose your ego through meditation they say and then you will become one with the universe - i.e. become one with the Buddha yourself.

I can't agree with this "losing your ego" ideal - nor should any individual in their right mind.

Their ideal is impossible to live by consistently anyway - that is why Buddhism just goes on and on and on...and round and round and round...without ever getting anywhere.

Give me Objectivism instead any day.





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Post 5

Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 4:38amSanction this postReply
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I have taken classes in tai chi and yoga. So, I nodded in assent while reading Sarah House's post. 

As I pointed out in one of the "Confucius" threads, most of us have no idea what Confucius or Buddha or Lao Tze or even Aristotle "really" said.  I have English language editions of Aristotle, translated by scholars whom I consider competent.  I also have Loeb editions with Greek and English on facing pages so that I can assure myself of what Aristotle "really" meant.  I have grammars and lexicons for classical Greek and I even have the hybris to consider them conditional, placing my own translations above theirs. I cannot do that with Buddha or Confucius.  I do not have the texts and I do not understand the language.

To condemn Buddhism second-hand is wrong, perhaps, and if so, then so is accepting it second-hand.  It is a problem.

Still, there is tai chi and there is yoga and there are modern works by people who claim to be Buddhists or whatever.  So, like the blind men and the elephant, we make our judgments based on what we perceive.  I wonder how someone who knows only Buddhism would understand a thread about "The Passion of Ayn Rand's Enemies."  What would they conclude about what Objectivism "really" teaches?

On the other hand, I think that someone who knew only Buddhism might find true enlightenment in a David Kelley lecture about the primacy of existence.

The reason that I came to SOLO is the name: SENSE OF LIFE Objectivists -- the positive, affirming, benevolent aspects of a philosophy that celebrates achievement.  You do not find much of that in Buddhism.  Objectivism is externally focused.  Buddhism is internally focused. Objectivism is about understanding the world around you and your place in it.  Buddhism is about understanding yourself and your place in the world.  In Buddhism, I find the positive, affirming, benevolent aspects of a philosophy that makes me the center of my universe.

The primacy of reality versus the primacy of consciousness is a false dichotomy.  Is is all that is.  Be here now.

In another post, I mentioned having worked for Kawasaki.  That came after I took two college classes in Japanese.  I find the culture compelling.  Read here a brief biography of Shozo Kawasaki: http://www.khi.co.jp/overview/history_e.html

Ayn Rand would say that he was successful in business dispite the inner contradictions of his mixed-premise philosophy which denied the best within himself, sacrificing it to mysticism.  The same might be said of Andrew Carnegie.  Luke Setzer is not alone in pointing out that at Mensa meetings, the common complaint is "If we're so smart, why aren't we rich."  That applies to Objectivists.  If we know so much about capitalism, why are we not billionaires?  Why is Bill Gates not an Objectivist?

Personally, I believe in the power of projection.  I think that because I think this way that other people do, also.  Of course, I could be wrong, but this is my perception:  People believe what they believe for non-rational causes and then find rationalizations for them.  That is why there are disagreements among Objectivists -- and points of agreement between what Ayn Rand advocated and what Timothy Leary advocated.

Said the Buddhist to the hotdog vendor, "Make me one with everything."




Post 6

Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 8:17amSanction this postReply
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You're right, I didn't ask questions. Oops. Funny stuff happens in the wee hours of the morning. Thanks for replying anyway.

I guess I should clarify that I'm not defending or attacking either philosophy here, just comparing. Well, I guess I’m kind of defending, but it’s more defending against misconceptions instead of rights vs. wrong.

Nihilism vs Goals


Life as suffering is another common mistranslation. This "dukkha" is what I described in my paragraph about the Four Noble Truths. Also, the Buddha never said that the cessation of desires was even possible. He said that the best thing you could do was to not let your desires control your actions, i.e. follow reason, not whims. Note I said nothing of enlightenment here. I want to examine only the core of Buddhist thought (these observations about the real world) and not the mystic aspect of Buddhism.

To say that Buddhism has found no reason to do anything is inaccurate, I think. Dharma is more of a map (and by no means the only way) to avoid creating a hollow life.

I want to ask whoever said this: what's necessarily unhealthy about it? Also, using the word "fleeting" confuses the issue. It really means that we should believe that all pleasure is fleeting but through "acceptance" we will feel an eternal pleasure. (?) Is that anywhere close?


Eternal pleasure is not a goal here. As you said, the idea of eternal pleasure makes no sense. Perhaps fleeting wasn't the best word to use. Empty pleasures maybe? If I were to live my life pursuing something like getting a drug high, this would be an unhealthy attachment to an empty pleasure. In contrast, if I were to seek out a friend to have an intelligent conversation with, this wouldn't be an empty pleasure. I'm left with some satisfaction after the fact, something of value, instead of a hole that needs to be filled. The idea is to think about what you're doing and why you're doing it and decide how to act accordingly.

An individual must focus earnestly on where he finds himself (metaphysics). He must verify his claims (epistemology). He must decide what to do/how to behave (ethics). It takes a great deal of courage and hard work to face those necessities.


This is almost exactly what dharma says! I haven’t found any epistemology in there, but the other stuff is definitely the meat of what I’m talking about.

A big stumbling block no one has brought up yet is that Buddhists always say that the goal is to lose your ego….I can't agree with this "losing your ego" ideal - nor should any individual in their right mind.


I wholly agree with you. This is also what I didn’t like about Buddhism, and this is what I talked about with the idea of the self. It is not that the ego does not exist; just that it is constantly changing. For every stimulus the brain responds; it changes. Recognizing this is the extent of losing your ego. The stagnant ego does not exist.

Objectivism is externally focused. Buddhism is internally focused.


I think that is accurate, but are not both important?

On a final note, remember, I’m not talking about the mystical aspects of Buddhism, only the real world aspects of the philosophy, the dharma. It is unfortunate that the most prevalent form of Buddhism in America is Zen, which is, for me, the most nonsensical. It has led most people to misconception that the most important part of Buddhism is meditation, usually on some illogical question for the purposes of recognizing the limitations of reason. In reality the most important part of dharma is to think about what you are doing and why you do it.




Post 7

Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 1:22pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Sarah,

I said:

An individual must focus earnestly on where he finds himself (metaphysics). He must verify his claims (epistemology). He must decide what to do/how to behave (ethics). It takes a great deal of courage and hard work to face those necessities.
You said:

This is almost exactly what dharma says! I haven’t found any epistemology in there, but the other stuff is definitely the meat of what I’m talking about.


Epistemology is exactly what is needed. Rand's defense of man's capacity of reason is critically, massively, blessedly, fundamentally, tremendously valuable. It was very kind of her to offer that.

Almost every philosopher I have considered limits or attacks man's capacity to reason. Same goes for Bhuddism. Without a way to verify your claims, what do you have exactly?

Zilch.

It's bad enough when you cannot verify your claims for others. It's far worse when you cannot verify your claims even to yourself.




Post 8

Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 3:08pmSanction this postReply
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Epistemology is exactly what is needed. Rand's defense of man's capacity of reason is critically, massively, blessedly, fundamentally, tremendously valuable. It was very kind of her to offer that.

Almost every philosopher I have considered limits or attacks man's capacity to reason. Same goes for Bhuddism. Without a way to verify your claims, what do you have exactly?


Dharma does not, to my knowledge, explicitly discuss epistemology. However, to say that it attacks or limits human reason is inconsistent. The Eightfold Path's right views consists of using reason to evaluate the world. It isn't discussed because it is taken as a given. Attacking reason are like throwing snowballs. Why even acknowledge a mere nuisance?



Post 9

Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 5:58pmSanction this postReply
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Instead, people are constantly changing because we are constantly being bombarded by stimuli which we react to and therefore change in some way.
I wonder why I care so much about my future, since my future self is not me. Yet... a great deal of myself does continue through time, so I think the phrase "no self" is misleading. It should be labeled "dynamic self" or "fluid" as you suggested.

Since my future self will mostly be me, my baseless decision to live a long healthy life still seems fine. If the being that woke up tomorrow morning was completely different than the being that I am today, I wonder if I would continue to care about my future.

To say that Buddhism has found no reason to do anything is inaccurate, I think. Dharma is more of a map (and by no means the only way) to avoid creating a hollow life.
Avoidance of a hollow life is not a reason to live a life. If my claim that "Buddha never found a reason to do anything" is inaccurate, please provide a Buddist reason (or your reason) as to why a person (or you) do anything.

The website that you linked to suggested that in some ways objectivism is dogmatic. In what ways do you think objectivism (or objectivists) is (can be) dogmatic?

Thanks,
Dean



Post 10

Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 9:27pmSanction this postReply
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Dean,

In your response to Joseph Rowlands' article The Meaning of Life you quoted what you say as the most important part:

... In the dynamic view of life you aim to live your life and enjoy the process of living it. Your goal isn't to prevent death, except in that death prevents you from continuing to live. You aim at the positive. ...

This is dharma! This connection to objectivism is the reason I started this thread.



Post 11

Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 9:02pmSanction this postReply
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Since my future self will mostly be me, my baseless decision to live a long healthy life still seems fine. If the being that woke up tomorrow morning was completely different than the being that I am today, I wonder if I would continue to care about my future.

You make it sound as if the future you and the present you are completely unrelated. Does a causal transformation reduce your value to yourself? There is no either-or in caring for yourself in the present and caring for yourself in the future. Caring for your present self is caring for your future self.

I wouldn't continue this discussion if I didn't want to debate the issues, but it seems your tongue is getting sharper by the post. May I ask for a reasonable debate or will this forum degenerate like so many others?

Avoidance of a hollow life is not a reason to live a life. If my claim that "Buddha never found a reason to do anything" is inaccurate, please provide a Buddist reason (or your reason) as to why a person (or you) do anything.

Please be aware of the terms I'm using. When I say Buddhism I refer to the religions. When I say dharma I refer to the ideas I presented in my first post.

That said, you're right that avoidance of a hollow life is not a reason to live a life. I never claimed that dharma proposed a reason to live a life. Should it? Do you need to be told that you should live your life? Do you need to justify to others that you should live your life? These ideas presuppose a will to live and simply provide an example of one of the many ways to live well; a way that worked for you guy who decided to share it.

I cannot give you a Buddhist's reasons to live and act. I can't give you anyone else's reasons to live and act. I can tell you what I like about living and acting. I can't give you a reason why I like it. Does the question not turn into an infinite regress? I can start by saying that I live for things that bring me genuine pleasure, such as learning and understanding something new, and I act because it allows me to continue to live and find those pleasures. But why? Why are those things pleasing? Why do I want to act to live? I can give you a 'what' mechanism: biologically speaking these things are pleasurable because they allow me to survive and self-preservation is a biological pillar of life. But as to why, I ask you is the question meaningful? What does it mean to ask why? Is why a what-is-the-cause-of or what-is-the-purpose-of? If that is the case then it's a what, not a why. Is why simply built on combinations of who, what, where, when, and how? If that is so then what is the purpose of having why around?

The website that you linked to suggested that in some ways objectivism is dogmatic. In what ways do you think objectivism (or objectivists) is (can be) dogmatic?

You automatically assume that I think objectivism is or can be dogmatic? Must I really put a disclaimer on every link? I found the link from Barry Kayton's article Reaching New Readers. I simply cited it as another place to look at the issue. Any views or opinions discussed in said link do not necessarily reflect my views or opinions.

Now that that's out of the way, it depends on which sect of objectivism you're talking about. It is perfectly acceptable to say that an abstract like logic cannot change, but that is not to say that human conditions will not change. To cling too tightly to any rigorous philosophy is impractical, regardless of its soundness. It is the foundation of such a philosophy that is truly important. This is so because the conditions under which the philosophy was developed are not the conditions under which the philosophy will be forever used. This is not to say that it cannot be useful in a rigorous form. Clearly, starting from basic premises to decide which movie rent or what to cook for dinner isn't a good use of your time. However, just because it may be useful for some time doesn't mean it should be immortalized. I would say that some have dogmatized objectivism in the insistence that the political and economic philosophies will always be the best; the most rational. They may be the most effective means of interaction based on what philosophies have existed in human history and the current conditions, but that is not to say that something better will come along. With a change of conditions can come a change in the most effective system.



Post 12

Friday, March 25, 2005 - 12:22amSanction this postReply
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You make it sound as if the future you and the present you are completely unrelated.
I was considering the idea of absolutely no continual self. I do not actually think it.

My tongue is not sharp, I am sorry if I gave you that impression. Perhaps I should choose my words more carefully.

Hmmm... my 'why' was "what is the reason for". Thanks for answering my question. : )

I need to justify my life and actions to myself-- I have been a nihilist... it was... nothing. I faced the idea that what I am is simply the current leaf of a large tree of things that were successful at copying themselves. My feelings and desires come from genetic traits. These traits came from selected differences in genetic code that make me more likely to successfully reproduce. That is all I am. I had little reason to live other than to complete a pole barn that I told my father I would build him.

While I was nihilist, I was searching frantically for a reason to live, or a reason to do anything. My mother wanted me to believe in god, live, work, and set a good example because other people need me and look up to me. My father lives to be happy and healthy, he is not religious, and he does not really talk about these things. I should ask him what his reason for living is.

Well, anyways I finally looked at my options. I saw that I could continue to decay, I could just coast through life, or I could live with vigor. I didn't have a reason to choose any option, but I went with the third one. I am going to live with passion/vigor, even if it is without reason!

You automatically assume that I think objectivism is or can be dogmatic? Must I really put a disclaimer on every link?
Thanks for the disclaimer : ).

...With a change of conditions can come a change in the most effective system.
Good point.

Maybe I should think more and type less. Thanks for your time and replies to my posts.



Post 13

Friday, March 25, 2005 - 2:15amSanction this postReply
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Dean said, "I have been a nihilist... it was... nothing."

Classic.




Post 14

Friday, March 25, 2005 - 3:26amSanction this postReply
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Here is a link to Objectivists in Japan.  I am sorry that I cannot help with the translations. 
http://www.aynrand2001japan.com/index1.html

I found the site graphically fascinating.  Just click the hyperlinks in order and look around.  Imagine Objectivists in the land of Zen.




Post 15

Friday, March 25, 2005 - 3:39amSanction this postReply
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Imagine Objectivists in the land of Zen.
This made me laugh out loud and nearly fall off of my chair.
 
I can just imagine the glazed look in Michael's eyes as he was typing this sentence :-)




Post 16

Friday, March 25, 2005 - 4:25amSanction this postReply
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Sarah,

You have typed many words and after reading all of them I don't know what you're after. What specifically are you trying to understand? In as few words as possible please.




Post 17

Friday, March 25, 2005 - 5:39amSanction this postReply
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I saw a connection between objectivism and Buddhism and I wanted to share it.



Post 18

Friday, March 25, 2005 - 1:31pmSanction this postReply
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Prior to Objectivism, I had some interest in Buddhism myself.  However, I never quite saw the interpretations that you gave, Sarah.  Is always saw a lot of writing about pacifism, compassion, and altrusim/selflessness.  It seems odd that there could be similarities, but I am not discounting the possibility.  I also knew that Zen was not to my liking, I mostly studied the Tibetan variety and read some of the Dalai Lamah's books (he is a fascinating man, in any case).  Is there specific literature that shows the interpretation you are providing, or is it something you thought of yourself (or a combination thereof)?



Post 19

Friday, March 25, 2005 - 2:26pmSanction this postReply
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Kurt,

The two main books I looked at were Buddhism Without Beliefs by Stephen Batchelor and Buddhism : A Concise Introduction by Huston Smith and Philip Novak.

The former is an introduction to dharma with minimal mystic discussion. The latter is a general history of Buddhism and another introduction to dharma, but not explicitly removing the mysticism.

As to my interpretations, I don't know if I could give you an honest answer as to how much is mine vs the books'. I'd have to either go back and read them again, but I don't have them with me right now, or have someone else's comparison of what I've said and what the books have said. To my knowledge there haven't been a ton of direct comparisons to objectivism, although extending the ideas in Buddhism has led me to see a connection to objectivism. Maybe people just don't want to discuss it or maybe I'm just a crackpot. But I don't think Buddhism and objectivism are mutually exclusive and it seems they can learn from each other.

Most people in the U.S. only hear about Mahayana Buddhism, which is Zen and Tibetan Buddhism. There is also Theravada Buddhism which holds wisdom as its key virtue (as opposed to Mahayana which holds compassion as its key virtue) and operates under the assumption that humans achieve through their own actions instead of through supernatural interventions or meddlings. Also, much of the material that makes it into mainstream U.S. culture is more a mockery of Buddhism than anything. There is a lot of talk about the things you mentioned, and I think that stating such things as what one should do to be Buddhist is self-contradictory. The idea behind dharma is to think for yourself; the details are up to you. Just start with reason and go.



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