About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2


Post 40

Friday, April 1, 2005 - 9:35amSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
Michael said:

… as philosophies go, nothing beats a rigid adherence to reality,  the rules that govern existence and the profound sense of self worth and enlightenment that comes from Objectivism.  The sense of life that Objectivism brings is far more spiritually enjoyable than any other philosophy I have studied, but this is not what makes it right.  I think it is far more enjoyable ­_because_ it is right.  As a tool for living, nothing I have yet come across beats it.

What a profound statement!

 

Thanks,

Glenn




Post 41

Friday, April 1, 2005 - 10:29amSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
Good. Those were the kinds of answers I was hoping for. By the "with or against" question I was referring to blind acceptance of the Word of Rand, which I've come across before.

I'm sorry if I come off as abrasive. It's not my intention to offend, I'm just used to passionately arguing my position. The friend who I regularly debate is the same way and things can get rather... intense. In one debate, which ended up lasting about 8 hours, a table was overturned and food was sent everywhere (it was an act of clumsiness actually, but we like the image of "when we argue, tables will fly"). As to what I am offering: another point of view? What you get from me is your decision, I'm not here to explicitly give something. To me that seems like a bit to much like proselytizing.

I will not apologize for not using the exact same methods as you

I would never ask you to apologize for such a thing. To do so makes no sense to me.

It is not references to objectivism that I am opposed to, but blind adherence to. If a rebuttal of an argument consists of "cause Rand said so," it would be anything but an objectivist argument.

Is there a time (or a context) when enough checking has been done (enough to justify action)?

Absolutely, but one can act and still check. To ever stop checking, however, I do not think will happen because there are constantly new circumstances which arise. To say that there is a "place" where one can finally stop checking, an end to the bridge in a way, is to seek stagnation. Stagnation is death. I will never stop checking, but I will not let that prevent me from acting in a manner I think is appropriate.

To summarize, there are things in life (such as rights to life, liberty, pursuit of happiness) which are--for those who've crossed the respective bridges--no longer open to compromise. Think about this Sarah, there can be no other way, but to stand for things that make perfect sense to you.

And they shouldn't be open to compromise. I don't know who would argue that they should be.

The Ayn Rand Lexicon

Hmm, I have some gut reactions to something like this, but I will have to look at it further before I say more.

What I mentioned is the Buddhist teaching I got!

But I'm not interested in the teachings you received, just the understanding you gained from them. I was taught about Buddhism multiple times before I sat down and tried to understand it.

Batchelor is not necessarily different from other academic treatments of Buddhism. His descriptions of the ideas he covers is quite similar to other descriptions I've come across, he just covers some specific areas instead of the whole of Buddhism.

Well, I will have to take your word for that.

I'm sure I didn't invent it out of nothing. If I come across where I read it I'll point you in that direction.

Smith's presentation of Buddhism in this book seemed pretty clear to me. Could just be a matter of opinion though.

Have you come across any evidence to support that translation?

Well, if memory serves, I haven't come across a thorough presentation of Buddhism that hasn't used that translation. This site agrees with it, as do many others. If you're not satisfied, just google "dukkha wheel axle" and you'll find a whole slew of them. As far as direct evidence, no I haven't. Then again, I don't have the time or resources to check it.

Redefining the root of Buddhism would certainly be an intellectual milestone in the study of religions.

In a way, he is redefining the root of Buddhism, but not in the way that you imply. The west got wind of Buddhism mainly through Christian missionaries who, when they brought back word of it, eisegesized (made up word?) and was the start of a still present misinterpretation of Buddhism. Smith, I think, is trying to convey a truer presentation of Buddhism.

I think perhaps a more narrow focus is on order ... I think that too many arguments about "what X meant, taught, or said" is completely useless.

I agree, and this thread exploded beyond my original intentions. What I tried to do in my first post was to convey the concepts, not the words. Apparently it didn't work too well. Time constraints prevent me from going into fuller detail right now, but my next post will be...
Original Post: Part Deux
(Edited by Sarah House
on 4/01, 10:37am)




Post 42

Saturday, April 2, 2005 - 8:23pmSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
First of all, what I am not trying to do: show that Buddhism is synonymous with objectivism; convert anyone to anything; present Buddhism in a necessarily positive light.

What I am trying to do: take similarities between Buddhism and objectivism and, at Kurt’s behest, talk about how I would apply them (oh boy, hope this stays at a reasonable length).

I see connections between the two, which I think is really cool. Not only are they separated by ~2500 years, they are on either side of the east/west divide.

A note to Kurt: I do think that too much argumentation about who said what is bad, but in this case such arguments are important because I am explicitly comparing the two, and to provide only my interpretations without having a foundation of understanding what was said would be useless in a comparison. Then it would be no different from me creating something new and comparing it to objectivism, which wouldn’t be nearly as neat to me.

On that note I would like to clarify one (hopefully) last term: nirvana. The “goal” of Buddhism. Nirvana has been the ammo for attacking Buddhism as a nihilistic philosophy, but the idea isn’t fully understood by most that use it in this manner. Its literal translation is extinction, but without context it has no meaning. It is not the extinction of life or humanity, but “the extinction of greed, the extinction of hate, the extinction of delusion.” (Samyutta Nikaya, 38, 1) I’ll discuss the matter of greed later, but the other two I’ll assume we all agree are negative.

Another note: It is important to keep these ideas in the context of their times. Buddhism was a reaction to the oppressive Hindu caste system. Objectivism was a reaction to the oppressive socialist system. Where objectivism made a point of living for oneself Buddhism did not because the ultimate purpose of social propriety in the Hindu caste system was to end the individual’s cycle of rebirths, a selfish motive if there ever was one.

Yet again, note: When I say Buddhism I will be referring to original Buddhism, i.e. pre-Theravada-Mahayana schism. This is when Buddhism was a philosophy instead of a religion (as I see it at least).

Now to the shared ideas…
Reason:
Both philosophies recognize humans as rational creatures. The application of this recognition is, of course, a philosophy based in reason instead of whim.

Identity, Causality, and Emptiness (Voidness):
The term emptiness, in this context, has seemed backwards to me ever since I learned what it meant. Emptiness does not refute identity, it refutes eternal identities, i.e. it is an expression of causality (as described by this site). A very useful application of this for me is the acceptance of impermanence. Ultimately it is facing one’s mortality and accepting it. After that acceptance, I think, one can stop living terms of “how can I prevent death (or prolong life)?” and begin living in terms of “how can I enjoy my life?” It is the epitome of living life on your own terms.

Individuality, More Causality, and Anatta:
Anatta is literally “no-self.” It is the negative of the Pali word atta, which was used to describe the spiritual, eternal essence which is separate from the body. This is strictly a refusal of mind-body duality. The logical extension of this is that the identity of the individual is constantly changing (causality in action). For every stimulus your brain strengthens or weakens certain connections, thus changing your identity. The application of anatta is the creation of ideas based in this world. No living for the “next life” allowed.

My main criticism of Buddhism, going back to the greed issue, is that it did not distinguish between rational and irrational selfishness. Buddhism only implies irrational selfishness, possibly in response to the corruption of Brahmin (the clergy caste) who exploited their perceived superiority for personal gain at the cost of the lower castes. Rational selfishness is, I think, at the heart of Buddhism. As Charles Wilson said, “What’s good for GM is good for the country.” This applies on the personal level too. Bettering oneself is beneficial to others as well because of the inevitable interaction with others. However strongly the Buddha may have argued for selfless actions, he also encouraged rational selfishness, recognizing the variety of personal preferences in human interaction.



Post 43

Saturday, April 2, 2005 - 9:46pmSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
Ultimately it is facing one’s mortality and accepting it. After that acceptance, I think, one can stop living terms of “how can I prevent death (or prolong life)?” and begin living in terms of “how can I enjoy my life?” It is the epitome of living life on your own terms.
Aging and death is not something given to us by God. They are not attributes that were divinely given to us that we are incapable of changing. Instead, death occurs because natural selection and evolution do not care about death. It is up to us to engineer ourselves to increase our bodies' reliabilities to prevent death.

I will accept the fact that people in the past always died. I am not so certain that I will die. In fact, I think it is reasonable to think that improvements in technology will outpace at least my generation's aging. I would not be surprised if the majority of people living today will only die by freak accidents, murder, or suicide.



Post 44

Saturday, April 2, 2005 - 10:14pmSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
Aging and death is not something given to us by God. They are not attributes that were divinely given to us that we are incapable of changing. Instead, death occurs because natural selection and evolution do not care about death. It is up to us to engineer ourselves to increase our bodies' reliabilities to prevent death.

I never said death is divinely given or incapable of change. Being incapable of change would be a tad bit inconsistent with the premise of constant change. I'm saying that it's good not to be obsessed with death. What kind of sense of life revolves around death?

I would not be surprised if the majority of people living today will only die by freak accidents, murder, or suicide.

I don't think that's a reasonable statement at all. Unless we can somehow stop cell metabolism in the near future I'm pretty sure our bodies are going to keep deteriorating. Is it a possibility? Sure. Is it probable right now? Not from my understanding of biology.



Post 45

Saturday, April 2, 2005 - 10:41pmSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
I always thought that "mortality" meant that its not just possible for one to die, but that there was no way to avoid it. Woops.



Post 46

Sunday, April 3, 2005 - 1:26amSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
Dean said, "I would not be surprised if the majority of people living today will only die by freak accidents, murder, or suicide."

Dean,

Are you saying it may not have been necessary for me to quit smoking last month? ARRGGG!!!! (Bonking self on forehead with heel of hand)

Thanks anyway,
Tenya



Post 47

Sunday, April 3, 2005 - 3:32amSanction this postReply
Link
Edit
Tenya,

*May* not have been necessary. Haha. I would argue that there are more benefits to not smoking than a longer life. Other benefits of smoking? Other benefits of not smoking?

Congratulations on quitting smoking. I encourage you to continue quitting for the rest of your life. Instead of spending the money on cigarettes, you can now help fund my research at the University of Florida! Or some other research. Or something else. : )



Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2
User ID Password reminder or create a free account.