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Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 7:43amSanction this postReply
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Prager believes reason is not sufficient to inform morality.

He poses the following question:

Did those non-Jews in Europe who risked their lives to save a Jew during the Holocaust act on the dictates of reason? In a lifetime of studying those rescuers' motives, I have never come across a single instance of an individual who saved Jews because of reason. In fact, it was irrational for any non-Jews to risk their lives to save Jews.
 How should Objectivists respond?




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Post 1

Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 9:27amSanction this postReply
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Bear in mind that those non-Jews that helped the Jews were themselves living within tyranny; the difference between them was a matter of the degree they were subject to victimization. Within the Nazi tyranny the single most targeted, abused, and scapegoated persons were the Jews. The Nazi state poured an enormous amount of resources and manpower into their goal of eliminating the Jews. To protect, hide, and help them was the ultimate act of treason against this state in that it further stretched manpower and resources that were needed on the war front. From a purely practical point of view, helping Jews acted as a means to undermine the regimes goals and war effort.

But this in itself is not enough, nor does it address your question.

There was a rational component to the morality of helping them, in fact, reason was the source of their moral choice. One cannot divorce the rational from the moral, if it is truly moral - it is rational. A mans life is not only the ability to continue breathing, but also the ability to make choices according to his values. A moral persons life within a tyranny is already at risk, what one is arguing here is not whether one can avoid the risk to ones life, but the degree to which one is willing to place an already at risk life - to greater risk. By placing themselves at the ultimate risk of death to help the Jews, they were making the single most selfishly life-affirming act that one could commit within the context of Nazi Germany. Short-term they did indeed place their lives at greater risk, but long-term within the black and white - life or death context they were forced into, if life was to have any true meaning their reason dictated that the act of saving an innocent human beings life in a culture of death - was the most moral action they could take.

The non-Jew that recalls his motivation in saving the lives of Jews will tell you of his inability to stand by and do nothing in the face of such evil, or his love and respect for human life, or his need to do something to strike out against the tyranny, or his great empathy for the greatest victims of that tyranny, or even of his Christian morality that inspired him to help his brother. He will record his emotional responses to his deepest values as his primary rationale for the risk he took. But in every case it was an emotional response to that part of his values that were the most rational. The fact they are unable to connect morality to reason intellectually does not negate the fact that their motivation was derived from this nonetheless. 

The people that helped the Jews did not do so on the spur of the moment, they did not do so stupidly, they were not acting against their reason - the act was a triumph over their fear. Their religious and/or philosophical beliefs may have held reason and morality to be antagonistic towards each other (and thus they could not articulate the rationality of their acts) but within them there was great degree of an integrity that was still whole and heroic. They acted upon that part of them that was the highest and noblest: I can think of nothing more rational than that.

George






Post 2

Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 9:28amSanction this postReply
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I am glad another SOLO member reads Mr Prager's writings. Though I am a SOLO member (thanks to the owner of the house, Mr. Lindsay Perigo), I am not an Objectivist, but an ex-Atheist admirer of Judaism.

He makes a very good case for ethical monotheism,

"Ethical monotheism means two things:

 

1. There is one God from whom emanates one morality for all humanity.

2. God's primary demand of people is that they act decently toward one another."

defined by him as

"Ethical monotheism means there is one God and therefore one moral standard that He has revealed, and He holds all humans accountable to it."

and affirms that reason is amoral,

"Reason is only a tool and, therefore, can just as easily argue for evil as for good. If you want to achieve good, reason is immensely helpful; if you want to do evil, reason is immensely helpful. But reason alone cannot determine which you choose. It is sometimes rational to do what is wrong and sometimes rational to do what is right."

I basically agree with him.

Regards,

Joel Català





Post 3

Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 11:17amSanction this postReply
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George,

This reminds me of the discussion we had here recently about lying to a criminal.  Lying is wrong, but in the context of lying to a criminal to save one's family it is not only permitted but rational.  Context.  

A life affirming act and preserving one's life are two different things, one is symbolic, the other actual.  Rand tells us to distinguish between the potential and the actual.

One's highest purpose or self interest here has to be to survive in the hope of outliving the regime.  Life affirming acts are pointless if you lose the life you are trying to affirm.  The action is no way attacks the enemy, he is not encumbered in any way.  It is simply passive/aggressive. 

By taking in a Jew under these circumstances, one is greatly decreasing not only his chance of surviving  but also that of his family.  All will be punished equally, if caught.  Does one have the right to make that decision for others?  Okay, suppose their permission was given.  This is fine for the adults, but what about children are they able to make an informed decision?

This is a sacrifice or a random act of kindness.  It is the same as stepping in front of a bullet, aimed at another.  It is not in one's rational self interest. 




Post 4

Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 11:28amSanction this postReply
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Joel,

I read many things, Prager among them.

I have seen this quote :
"Reason is only a tool and, therefore, can just as easily argue for evil as for good. If you want to achieve good, reason is immensely helpful; if you want to do evil, reason is immensely helpful. But reason alone cannot determine which you choose. It is sometimes rational to do what is wrong and sometimes rational to do what is right."
It presupposes the existence of a moral code i.e., good and evil.  So, if already in possession of a code of morality you use the tool of reason and end up choosing evil,  there would be a flaw in your reasoning and you would need to check your premises, or adopt a better code.




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Post 5

Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 11:45amSanction this postReply
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Has anybody ever been in a position similar to that of a persecuted Jew during WWII? Or ever in any situation of an unjustly imposed mortal danger? I can't think of anything more fundamental and rational than "Do onto others as you would wish them do onto you".



Post 6

Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 12:25pmSanction this postReply
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[Mr. Robert Davidson:] I read many things, Prager among them.

Open-mindedness is good.


[Mr. Robert Davidson:] "It [Mr. Prager's quote] presupposes the existence of a moral code i.e., good and evil.  So, if already in possession of a code of morality you use the tool of reason and end up choosing evil, there would be a flaw in your reasoning and you would need to check your premises, or adopt a better code."

Yes, I agree on that.

A few additional comments:

1.- You may know the best moral code and still choose not to follow it. Free will has the last word.

2.- The history narrated by Dennis Prager teaches us that sometimes a lesser evil (a lie) is necessary in order to save a higher good (the life of an innocent human). To make the moral decision of which is the higher good you may need the use of reason.

In summary, I think that the best moral code without proper reasoning is lame; and reasoning without the best moral code is senseless (and thus morally wrong). 

Any comment?

Best wishes,

Joel Català



 







Post 7

Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 1:36pmSanction this postReply
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As long are you are not preaching self sacrifice, I am willing to debate morality.



Post 8

Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 1:39pmSanction this postReply
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Hong,

"Do onto others as you would wish them do onto you".
How about do for yourself and let your neighbor do the same.





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Post 9

Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 1:39pmSanction this postReply
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It is a reasoned stance that evil is a parasite to the good, and inherently self-destructive - therefore, it is irrational to pursue evil. To declare that reason is amoral is to forget that one has already committed to an irrational fundamental in order to make the statement.

An objective power of suasion can only be exercised by reason, not faith, for faith has no argument (if it has, it will be to the extent that it is not faith). Hence, it is no surprise that the greatest immorality - war - has been conducted many times in the service of faith. Man can only be man if he can be reasoned with; absent this, anything goes - it does not matter if one's faith is monotheistic or not, for it will still be irrational.

Relying upon the external, the supernatural, or the inexplicable to provide one's moral code is a surrender to one's fear of moral responsibility for oneself. The advance of religion is premised on this common fear: "I can't trust my reason to make me moral, therefore I can't trust your reason either; better to rely on a 'higher power' to keep both of us in check, no?" This is a child's morality, and it shall only hinder one's moral growth.

__________________________

Hong, the statement "Do onto others as you would wish them do onto you" still has to rely on an even more fundamental premise that the person stating this has only good intentions. There will still remain two problems; (1) that the person could be evil and (2) that our wishes will translate to good consequences from our actions. The statement informs us of neither, and hence, is incomplete.



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Post 10

Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 3:08pmSanction this postReply
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Robert Davison asks:

Prager believes reason is not sufficient to inform morality.

He poses the following question:
Did those non-Jews in Europe who risked their lives to save a Jew during the Holocaust act on the dictates of reason? In a lifetime of studying those rescuers' motives, I have never come across a single instance of an individual who saved Jews because of reason. In fact, it was irrational for any non-Jews to risk their lives to save Jews.

 How should Objectivists respond?



Then apparently answers it with:

By taking in a Jew under these circumstances, one is greatly decreasing not only his chance of surviving  but also that of his family.  All will be punished equally, if caught.  ...

This is a sacrifice ... It is the same as stepping in front of a bullet, aimed at another.  It is not in one's rational self interest. 




Enlightened Self-Interest

Sometimes I'm astonished at the end-arguments of those who reason from "self-interest" and avoiding "sacrifice."

The problem with this reasoning is the implicit premise that one's self-interest stops at the boundaries of one's own skin. Does it?

Or does the quality of one's own life depend in no small way on the quality of the lives of those around us?

There are those who are now calling the latter view "enlightened self-interest." I'm one of them.


Sacrifice

And what about this "stepping in front of a bullet" taboo?

Those who love their lives might choose not to do so for a stranger.

But let's up the ante. What if an entire planet is threatened with annihilation, billions of people, with you and you alone standing between them and their destruction?  

What kind of sorry excuse for a human being would shrug and walk away?

Forget obligation. Forget sacrifice. I'm not claiming anyone is morally obligated to expend his or her life on another's behalf. The question is, how many of us would CHOOSE to value our lives more highly than a billion other people?

The sad and revolting fact is that some will. Let those who would argue for this position consider what it says about them as human beings.

Would we risk or give our lives to save a billion, or a thousand, or a hundred, or a dozen fellow human beings? If so, we've established what we are - beings of shameless compassion and enlightenment - and now we're merely haggling the price.

The standard, as I see it, is not just our own life. The standard is "individual human life and the primary qualities thereof." 

Most people are endowed by nature with qualities which make them care about the welfare of other people. If morality is to be derived from the nature of human beings, the value of others must be included in that morality. That is also in our own self-interest, which does not stop at the boundary of our own skin.

Nathan Hawking




.

(Edited by Nathan Hawking on 6/09, 3:14pm)




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Post 11

Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 5:53pmSanction this postReply
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Nathan,

Before I respond to this tearful diatribe, are you an Objectivist?




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Post 12

Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 6:20pmSanction this postReply
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num++,
I think the "Golden Rule" (Do onto others as you would wish them do onto you) by itself already takes care of your problem #1. As far as I know, evil people do not like their evil deed to be done onto themselves. So their behavior is inconsistent with this rule, and is inconsistent with reason. I am not completely clear about the meaning of your problem #2.




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Post 13

Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 6:33pmSanction this postReply
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Robert D:
Nathan,

Before I respond to this tearful diatribe, are you an Objectivist?


"Tearful diatribe?"

I note your proclivity to characterize the argument of others in unflattering terms. Since I did not refer to your statements as an "I'm-out-for-me-and-fuck-you diatribe," I'd urge you to show a little restraint. Such rhetoric can cut both ways.

What label I use for myself is irrelevant. If you have an actual argument, state your case. You need assume nothing about me.

Nathan Hawking

 




Post 14

Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 7:53pmSanction this postReply
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Nathan said: "Sometimes I'm astonished at the end-arguments of those who reason from "self-interest" and avoiding "sacrifice." The problem with this reasoning is the implicit premise that one's self-interest stops at the boundaries of one's own skin."

Well said and bravo, Nathan!

George




Post 15

Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 8:06pmSanction this postReply
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George,

Does your appreciation for self interest not stopping at one own skin apply to loved ones as well as strangers?  Sacrificing for strangers sounds like altruism to me.




Post 16

Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 8:33pmSanction this postReply
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Nathan,
You remain -- steadfastly -- a. class. act.




Post 17

Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 8:52pmSanction this postReply
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RD said:

George,

Does your appreciation for self interest not stopping at one own skin apply to loved ones as well as strangers?  Sacrificing for strangers sounds like altruism to me.




It's not altruism if other people are often willing to put their ass on the line for us - and often they are. It's a trade.

It's called generosity (though not in the Iannoloan - with one L - sense. LOL). http://solohq.com/Forum/ArticleDiscussions/1231.shtml#12
It's also called compassion.

Altruism is the "unselfish regard for the welfare of others." Exercising compassion is acting according to one's own nature, assuming we aren't sociopathic or stripped of our natural fellow-feeling by a life of being brutalized.

So, how many strangers would you tell to go to hell to save your own skin? 10?  100? 1000? 1,000,000? A billion?
 
Will you give us a number?
 
I may not trade my life for a single stranger's. But I'd sure as hell trade it for the lives of a billion. Where I draw the line is somewhere between those two extremes.

Sacrifice? Hell, no. I'd consider it life well-spent. It's the price I would pay for something I value highly, the lives of human individuals, even though I may not know them.

Nathan Hawking

(Edited by Nathan Hawking on 6/09, 11:58pm)




Post 18

Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 9:19pmSanction this postReply
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It's called generosity (though not in the Iannolloan sense LOL). http://solohq.com/Forum/ArticleDiscussions/1231.shtml#12

Hey, watch it.  Those are Jason Dixon's original words, not mine.  :)

And, uh, there's only one "l".  Hmmph.

;)




Post 19

Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 11:51pmSanction this postReply
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Jennifer:

And, uh, there's only one "l".  Hmmph.

;)
Rats. And I tried so hard. (I'm SO glad we can edit posts!)

George: Thanks for your kind remarks.

Jeff: Yes, but you're not saying what KIND of class. Probably just as well. LOL

Nathan

(Edited by Nathan Hawking on 6/10, 12:02am)




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