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Post 120

Friday, June 17, 2005 - 1:20pmSanction this postReply
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Joel said:
The issue is that in order to reject all faiths, you need to refute the validity of "faith" for all its existing meanings. [Emphasis in the original.]
You're equivocating on the meaning of 'faith' here.  Just because a word has more than one meaning doesn't require a person, when using it, to intend all of its possible meanings. 

If you look up 'physics' in the dictionary, you find that it means (1) the plural of physic, a purgative (laxative) and (2) a science that deals with matter, etc.  So, if I say "I love to study physics", I think it's clear what I mean.  I don't have to intend all the meanings of physics.

It is obvious that when Michael said
What's wrong with all religions? Faith.
that he meant what most people mean when applying 'faith' to religion: belief in something for which there is no proof.  And in that sense, faith and reason are always opposed.

Thanks,
Glenn


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Post 121

Friday, June 17, 2005 - 5:13pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

<BONK>

Ethan


Post 122

Friday, June 17, 2005 - 6:37pmSanction this postReply
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Joel,

You amuse me (in a good way).  You came into this very meekly like a lamb to the slaughter, and now you are kicking ass and taking names. 

LOL


Post 123

Friday, June 17, 2005 - 7:02pmSanction this postReply
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Robert D,

Of course he's good. The man's on a mission. He wants to convert us.

(I've had similar training in another denomination.)

Michael


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Post 124

Friday, June 17, 2005 - 7:51pmSanction this postReply
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I only had the attention span to read 1 page back...

There are a few observable species-behavior traits in human beings, flocking, care for the young and so forth.

There's a lot more than a few. Donald E. Brown compiled a whole slew of behaviors evident in every human culture.

Joel,

I like that you don't accept "silly talk" and "absurd premise" as arguments and I like the points you've raised, but I disagree with almost everything you've said.

Your apparent ignorance of the religions you've brought up is disconcerting. I assume from your statements that you've read at least the Koran, but you seem to have misunderstood most of it. Your whole bit about jihad completely misses the fact that jihad is supposed to be an internal holy war, fought between oneself and whatever personal demon one is fighting. It is not a call to arms and a thirst for blood as you portray it.

Furthermore, you confuse faith and confidence. They are not, as you are suggesting, synonymous. Faith is a belief without evidence. Confidence is a belief with evidence.

I'm tempted to go at you on that Buddhism comment, but I can only assume that my efforts would be wasted since you apparently fail to understand whatever doesn't appeal to you prima facie.

You seem to disagree with these religions, but for all the wrong reasons.

Sarah
(Edited by Sarah House
on 6/17, 7:52pm)


Post 125

Friday, June 17, 2005 - 8:36pmSanction this postReply
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Sarah,
 
That's one hell of a list. I am completely fascinated reading it over.
 
Get ready for a zebra to frolic all over the place, though.
 
Michael
 
 

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 6/17, 8:37pm)


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Post 126

Saturday, June 18, 2005 - 1:42amSanction this postReply
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Michael, I just wanted you to know that someone (I) got the zebra joke!

Ed

Post 127

Saturday, June 18, 2005 - 7:16amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

Talmudic scholars are highly skilled debaters and extremely knowledgeable.


Post 128

Saturday, June 18, 2005 - 7:20amSanction this postReply
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Sarah,

Your whole bit about jihad completely misses the fact that jihad is supposed to be an internal holy war, fought between oneself and whatever personal demon one is fighting. It is not a call to arms and a thirst for blood as you portray it.
Joel can defend himself, but I think you are confusing what Rand would call the potential and the actual.  What Jihad means in theory is no barrier to how it works in practice. 


Post 129

Saturday, June 18, 2005 - 7:28amSanction this postReply
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Sarah,

 

I can only speak for myself, and I could be in error, but I found it very difficult to get a handle on the point Pinker is trying to make.  He reasons that believing in Tabula Rasa leaves us open to all manner of  propaganda mongers from Marx to Stalin, proponents of modern art and architecture, radical feminists, and parenting experts.  I fail to understand how the public would be immune to these influences if Tabula Rasa as a concept did not exist.  In fact, I am sure that the majority of those who sign on to these movements are not even aware of the concept.  He does not prove the mind is not a blank slate at birth, his argument is that it is a bad idea to believe it. 

 

He does, however, suggest that there is a limited amount of ‘hard wiring’ in the human brain, although his argumentation is specious (we don’t know enough about the Genome).  But this is pretty much what Wallace is talking about when he says,

“The colt or calf is said to walk instinctively, almost as soon as it is born; but this is solely due to its organization, which renders walking both possible and pleasurable to it.”  

 Some hard wiring in the brain is not in conflict with Objectivism.

 


Post 130

Saturday, June 18, 2005 - 8:04amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

What Jihad means in theory is no barrier to how it works in practice.

This is true. But, using this argument could I not also say that in theory all objectivists would argue using pure reason, but since that is not the case [level whatever claim I want at objectivism]. My point is, don't blame the system, blame the people. So what if this system tells me to do this or that. The actor is still the one doing the acting, not the system.

I had a different interpretation of Pinker's work. I saw it as an explanation of how Marxism, modern art, radical feminism, parenting experts, etc. arose. In other words, I think you're looking at his argument on its head. Also, I don't think he argued that it was a bad idea to believe in it, but that it was harmful to believe in it, as such things ask the biologically impossible of people, who are then punished when they don't succeed.

If you'll allow me to be picky and tangent a bit, science does not prove things in the logical sense. It only presents evidence that suggests facts, i.e. we can not prove that the core of our planet is molten iron or nickel, but we can pretty damn sure.

Sarah


Post 131

Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 6:57amSanction this postReply
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Sarah,

I don't believe your analogy is apt.

This is true. But, using this argument could I not also say that in theory all objectivists would argue using pure reason, but since that is not the case [level whatever claim I want at objectivism].
 This is an example of not living up to perfection, not redefining the system.  Jihadists have, for all practical purposes, reversed the meaning of jihad.  This is, as you may know, not a strictly modern phenomenon to which North Africa, the moorish incursion into Spain and  Turkish adventurism in the Balkans all attest.

Also, I don't think he argued that it was a bad idea to believe in it, but that it was harmful to believe in it,
I think you are stretching to find disagreement here.


Post 132

Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 7:59amSanction this postReply
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People will be opportunistic when it comes to justifying their actions, especially in war. The lack of modernity is irrelevant. Their actions do not redefine jihad, but reinterpret it. The Koran quite clearly sanctions fighting in self-defense:
Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed ... those who have been expelled from their homes without a just cause except that they say: Our Lord is Allah. (22:39-40)

It also promotes restraint:
Strike terror (into the hearts of) the enemies of Allah and your enemies.; But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things). (8:60-61)

Not all out warfare. But as you said, that doesn't mean people follow it.

When Rand talks about potential and actual I think of Thomas Sowell's writings about arguing for something in terms of the ends versus arguing for something in terms of the means. A socialist, for example, wants to feed all the hungry people in the world and argues for socialism as a system that will achieve that end. However, the argument doesn't include the means of enslaving one man so another may eat. That is my interpretation of potential and actual.

If you want to talk about how extremist Islamists practice jihad, then I'll be right there with you with the bloodthirst and all. But blaming jihad for their actions? That's no better than the socialist arguing for ends.

As for Pinker's work, I don't think I'm stretching anything at all. His arguments against collectivism made a ton more sense to me than Rand's "collectivism is anti-life therefore it's evil."



(Edited by Sarah House
on 6/19, 8:04am)


Post 133

Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 8:40amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

I can only speak for myself, and I could be in error, but I found it very difficult to get a handle on the point Pinker is trying to make.  He reasons that believing in Tabula Rasa leaves us open to all manner of  propaganda mongers from Marx to Stalin, proponents of modern art and architecture, radical feminists, and parenting experts.  I fail to understand how the public would be immune to these influences if Tabula Rasa as a concept did not exist.


I'm debating the Tabula Rasa theory of the mind on another thread.  The Tabula Rasa theory of the mind comes in different forms, as does the innatist position that opposes it.

The form of the Tabula Rasa theory that Pinker was arguing against argues that all differences in individual behavior are a function of learning/environment. In other words, individual behavior has no genetic component. If two boys at random are raised in very similar ways, they should have very similar ideas and behaviors, according to the Tabula Rasa theories.  For example, girls are no different from boys, and like dolls because they were raised to like dolls: if girls were raised to like guns, they would.  Human beings are taught violence, and men like orgasms because they were trained to do so.

This can be shown to be patent nonsense in a number of ways, but Pinker's method is to build an argument against it by arguing that evolved and selected genetic predispositions in human beings can account for a significant amount of the similarities and differences in individuals' behaviors.

I fail to understand how the public would be immune to these influences if Tabula Rasa as a concept did not exist.  In fact, I am sure that the majority of those who sign on to these movements are not even aware of the concept.  He does not prove the mind is not a blank slate at birth, his argument is that it is a bad idea to believe it. 
 
When arguments are based on using theories to account for the evidence, there is no "proof" unless you compare what different theories quantitatively and qualitatively predict and see which theory best accounts for the results.  Pinker showed all kinds of phenomena (sex differences in behavior, criminal behavior, results of adoption studies and identical twin studies) which are more in line with a combination of genetic and environmental factors influencing individual development than mostly environmental factors.
 
For example,  he also presents the findings that all studied babies who had sex-changes from male to female to fix a birth problem showed male behavior in childhood (like toys like guns and hating dolls, wanting to engage in rough-and-tumble play), even when raised to be females. At least one wanted to commit suicide before he was told the truth.  That one, by the way, was for a long time the poster child for the belief that girls and boys were different because of how they were raised. 
 
Now, those facts might not prove anything to you, but when a boy is raised like a girl and turns out to behave like a boy regardless, it proves to me that some differences in behaviors between boys and girls are not mostly determined by learning and are almost certainly influenced by genes (the skepticism is the Popper in me).
 

If Pinker's methods, which are mostly reports of the methods and results of behavioral geneticists and cognitive scientists worldwide, are specious to you, so be it.  Genetics didn't start when the human genome was sequenced, and the influences of genes are not determined only the information acquired from genome sequencing.  There have been methods used to test genetic influences (or heritability estimates) and compare them to environmental influences since the pioneering work of the late great Sir Ronald Fisher.  The core of the method is to look for genetically similar and dissimilar populations and see how much environmental  similarities and differences can explain differences in behavior.


(Edited by Abolaji Ogunshola on 6/19, 8:42am)


Post 134

Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 9:29amSanction this postReply
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Sarah,

In regard to Objectivism, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

as to:

not redefine jihad, but reinterpret it.
You are a picker of nits.

We should limited our discussions to iridecent wombats.


Post 135

Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 9:48amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

I don't think I'm picking nits, I'm just trying to be precise. Does a judicial activist's interpretation of the Constitution redefine it?

I'm not quite sure what you're insinuating with "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

Sarah

Post 136

Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 1:06pmSanction this postReply
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Abolaji:

Don't really know why you are addressing this to me.  I pretty much agree with your common sense assessment of the situation, particularly when it comes to distinctions between the sexes.

Pinker's rejection of Tabula Rasa, for no other reason except as a tactic to stiffle behaviorists, may be good stategy but it is bad science.

(Edited by Robert Davison on 6/19, 1:08pm)


Post 137

Monday, June 20, 2005 - 7:49amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Pinker's rejection of Tabula Rasa, for no other reason except as a tactic to stiffle behaviorists, may be good stategy but it is bad science.

I thought Pinker's book was a presentation of the copious amount of research into the issues, plenty of the research coming from distinguished scientists. The book had a philosophical bent, but the goal was always to show that science is far more consistent with a rejection of certain views that in many ways are equivalent to the Tabula Rasa, which argues that learning accounts for all differences in individual behavior.

Moreover, Pinker's rejection of the Tabula Rasa wasn't just to stifle behaviorists- behaviorists aren't the only ones who overestimate the role of learning in facilitating individual differences.  But if you disagree, fine.  I think that Pinker's book speaks for itself.

Cheers,

Laj.



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Post 138

Monday, June 20, 2005 - 9:14amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Kelly, replying to your post #119,

[Mr. Kelly:] "I am not going to argue with you on tangents." 

I think that some of the most juicy aspects of life are in the details. I care for them.


[Mr. Kelly:] "May I suggest you read Atlas Shrugged?"

I begun to loose my Objectivist fervor after reading critiques of Objectivism.

"Insider" readings were The Virtue of Selfishness, Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, and about 400 pages of Atlas Shrugged (I could not finish it: too repetitive).

 "External" critiques I read were about the personality of the founder of Objectivism, as well as some disturbing features of the Objectivist movement, flaws in her philosophy (in example, Scott Ryan's Objectivism and the Corruption of Rationality: A Critique of Ayn Rand's Epistemology), and some sad histories around Objectivism, as the one described by Ellen Plasil in Therapist.

Yes, some good ideas in Objectivism. But I found those good ideas as not new. I found Objectivism as a pseudo-rationalist offshoot of Libertarianism, tending to self-agradizement and dehumanization of who thinks different. Another important flaw (related to that Objectivist self-flattery): there is no authentic humor in (foundational) Objectivism, perhaps because authentic humor requires a sense of self-criticism.

Additionally, as Scott Ryan pointed out, it includes scores of contradictions, some of them produced by the Randian need to deny a priori the possibility of anything eternal in reality.

To summarize, --please stay in your seats before reading this line: I saw a lot of pseudo-rationality and insensitivity in Objectivism. Definitely, I don't think Objectivism is the best way of life.

I found much more well-defined ideas in Classical Liberalism and Libertarianism, in the Libertarian Reader, a compilation of the some of the most important Libertarian writings, by David Boaz. Then I was a convinced Atheist, and it puzzled me to find there a portion of the Old Testament, speaking about a very down-to-eath issue: the necessary evil that government is. A lot of my prejudices with (all forms of) Theism where produced by the irrational Catholic and Leftist brainwashing which I suffered during my childhood.

I also read Milton Friedman's Free to Choose with delight. It included that very important something that Ayn Rand's writings had an alarming lack of: a refreshing sense of humor.

In spite of that, I still like to debate with Objectivists. Objectivism is one of the less irrational philosophies which I know about, and has a lot of values in common with my worldview.

My two main differences with Objectivism is that I think that Theism and Altruism are reasonable. I am still defining my concepts of Theism and Altruism, and I think those are very complex issues.

The thing that I fear most is prejudice. It's very, very easy to fall into it, because it provides you with reassurance --a reassurance that is frequently false.

Regards,

Joel Català

(Edited by Joel Català on 6/20, 9:30am)


Post 139

Monday, June 20, 2005 - 9:52amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Fletcher, replying to your post #120,

[Mr. Fletcher:] "Joel said:
The issue is that in order to reject all faiths, you need to refute the validity of "faith" for all its existing meanings. [Emphasis in the original.]



"You're equivocating on the meaning of 'faith' here.  Just because a word has more than one meaning doesn't require a person, when using it, to intend all of its possible meanings." 


You're right in the second sentence, Mr. Fletcher. But I pointed out that there actually are other meanings for the word faith", and Mr. Kelly now still rejecting all of them. I think he maintains a prejudice with the word "faith".


[Mr. Fletcher:] "If you look up 'physics' in the dictionary, you find that it means (1) the plural of physic, a purgative (laxative) and (2) a science that deals with matter, etc.  So, if I say "I love to study physics", I think it's clear what I mean.  I don't have to intend all the meanings of physics.

"It is obvious that when Michael said

What's wrong with all religions? Faith.
"that he meant what most people mean when applying 'faith' to religion: belief in something for which there is no proof.  And in that sense, faith and reason are always opposed."

As I said before (in point A of post #115), I also oppose to "faith" when used with that most obvious meaning of "blind", anti-rational faith.

I defend that we should not impoverish our philosophical discussions by discarding entries of the dictionary: that would be a step towards an Objectivist political correctness --which is a sort of totalitarianism (doublespeak).

I think that's good to take that into account, and don't be afraid of openly challenging some Objectivist opinions. That must be so specially if an individual thinks that Objectivism is a philosophy consistent enough to stand by itself.

Best wishes,

Joel Català

(Edited by Joel Català on 6/20, 9:58am)


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