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Post 20

Sunday, July 3, 2005 - 10:46pmSanction this postReply
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femino,

Hi.

Your confusion with the Atlas Shrugged metaphor might be similar to one I encountered in Brazil. There the title of the book was translated as Quem é John Galt? (Who is John Galt?)

The problem was not in translating "Atlas," but in "Shrugged." The gesture of shrugging (according to the dictionary, "to raise or draw in the shoulders especially to express aloofness, indifference, or uncertainty") is not used very much in the Brazilian culture. There they make this gesture more with their arms and hands. A literal English translation of the Portuguese translation would be something like "Atlas Drew In Shoulders," which sort of fizzles the meaning out of it.

I don't know your culture enough to know if that is the same case, but I imagine it is. Since shrugging would make anything you carry fall off your back, Ayn Rand was brilliant in the choice of this word for Atlas, however she might have limited the metaphor culturally to not being understood outside of English and the languages of other places where people shrug as a gesture.

I hope that helps a little.

Michael



Post 21

Sunday, July 3, 2005 - 11:08pmSanction this postReply
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HAPPY BIRTHDAY AMERICA                                                                                   from your little sister to the north



Post 22

Sunday, July 3, 2005 - 11:22pmSanction this postReply
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MSK,

What you said about the difficulty in translating "shrugged" is interesting.  In Chinese, the word "shrug" is associated with shrugging one's shoulders as a form of self-expression, with no allusion to carrying a load.  To "shrug off" a burden would be expressed as to "break free" or to "let go".  Maybe "Atlas Let Go"?

JJ




Post 23

Monday, July 4, 2005 - 11:29amSanction this postReply
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Hong wrote:
Some students even send certificate for being selected "Outstanding Communist Youth League Member" to our admission committee as Honors and Awards received!!!
hehehehe : ). Unfortunately, in some places there are enough socialists or fail to thinkers that this might look good to the majority.



Post 24

Tuesday, July 5, 2005 - 12:04amSanction this postReply
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JJ,

In English "to shrug" also does not involve carrying a burden. However the gesture of shrugging I see here in the USA is normally mostly the shoulders, with very little of the arm-opening accompaniment (except for heavy or comical emphasis). Thus it is possible to shrug for one who is carrying a load on his back, and it would shake the load off.

Is this the case for Chinese? Or is there too much open arm movement (or some other accompanying gesture) for this to make sense?

"Atlas Let Go" could be. Maybe "Atlas Unloaded"?

//;-)

Michael




Post 25

Tuesday, July 5, 2005 - 12:59amSanction this postReply
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MSK,

Shrugging is mostly with the shoulders in China, for expressing mild sentiments such as "oh well" or "I don't know".  In general, good etiquette calls for a minimal amount of gesturing in communication in China.  Excessive gesturing is seen as inability to communicate verbally and a sign of coarse upbringing.

JJ

p.s.  In English, one can "shrug off" something, whereas a similar expression in Chinese would not employ the word "shrug" at all which would make the title "Atlas Shrugged" confusing.

(Edited by JJ Tuan on 7/05, 1:05am)

(Edited by JJ Tuan on 7/05, 8:51pm)




Post 26

Tuesday, July 5, 2005 - 4:08amSanction this postReply
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      Thanks the cybermates for explaining the meaning of Atlas shrugged. I know Ancient Greek Mythology has been translated into Ch____se long before. But my shortcoming is that I don't like reading literary works. When I was a child, my mother asked me to read hong lou meng (Dream of the Red Chamber) or something, I found it very boring. In fact, I like watching movies. I like the visual sense.

 

    "Si_x.ia.n.g zh.e.n.g_zhi" is very excruciating indeed. At the information age, it becomes more and more important to b(u)r()e()au()cr()ats. Because it is the only tool used for resisting the widespread "bourgeois" ide.o.log.i.es brought by Hollywood and in_ter-ne-t. The content of the curriculum of "si_xi.a.n.g zh.en.g_z.hi" become more and more. I don't know the cases in the past because I was born in 1980s. I just take the college "si_x.i.a.ng zh.en.g_zhi" curriculum in recent years for example. Two years ago, what students studied are M'ist Philosophy, M'ist Political Economics, M¡ªa---o XX Thought, D---e-n----g XX Theory and "Situation and Policies". And now, Core River's "3 R.e.p.r.e--s.e--n.t.s" has been listed in the curriculum. It can be reasonably anticipated that the p.o.l.i.t.i.c.al theories students have to learn will become more and more, because every Boss wants to become a spiritual leader.

 
      But no matter what they preach, I have no longer believed M'ism any more. In fact I had not believed in c.o.m=m-u-n--i-s-m before I went to primary school. But I couldn't tell its fault then. When I was in middle school, I myself found a "fatal flaw" in M'ism. (I don't know whether it is really a flaw. But I have ruminated over this.) M.a.r.x's  labor theory of value is a kind of "objective value theory". The value of a product is determined by the time to produce it. The value has nothing to do with our evaluation. Since the value is very "objective", the author should give us the quantitive equation and explain the mechanism of this kind of "determination". At least the author should give us a direct equation like "___ hours = ____ dollars". But I found M'ism never gives us this kind of equation. What it gives us is always "Suppose": "Suppose the necessary working time is ___ ", or "Suppose the surplus working time is ___ ". The conclusion that employers exploit employees is entirely founded on these "suppose"s. I once asked my "si_x.i.a.ng z.h.e.n.g_zhi" teacher to give me the equation "___ hours = ____ dollars", but she could not answer directly and said "it is determined by many factors in that moment" instead. But the factors can also be included into the equation. So I know " determined by many factors " is just a subterfuge. Since the root of M'ism is decisively wrong, I of course cannot believe its corollaries. I think I would not believe M'ism, until the M'ists correctly resolved the equation "___ hours = ____ dollars", but I think no such day would exist. But it is a pity that many students still don't know this fatal flaw of M'ism.



Post 27

Tuesday, July 5, 2005 - 6:16pmSanction this postReply
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Femino,
I find it hard to understand how you can sweepingly discuss “Chinese Culture” and “Western Culture” as you did in your first post without even bother to read the Classical Chinese and Western literatures, such as Ancient Greek Mythology and Dream of the Red Chamber. Where does your knowledge of Chinese and Western cultures come from then?

PS. I also find it strange how could your mother ask you to read Dream of the Red Chamber when you were a child, since there are a lot of adult contents in there and it is overly sentimental, not really suitable for kids at all.

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 7/05, 7:14pm)




Post 28

Tuesday, July 5, 2005 - 10:55pmSanction this postReply
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   Hong Zhang, your post 6 is right. Post 0 is not my work. I have neither enough time nor enough knowledge to analyze C____se culture so sweepingly. I don't know who composed this article. Its author is anonymous. But I have the same feeling with the author. He (maybe she, who knows) expresses what I want to say, and gives me the confidence not to follow C____ese culture outright. My own articles would not label so many. Articles like this are provocative. I think they have the function of reversing the conditioned reflexes established by C.o.m____i.s.t P.a.r.t.y's education.

    My presentation in post 26 may result some misrepresentation. What I want to say is that, I don't like reading fictions, such as novels, stories and essays. I like reading popular science books and other books belonging to non-fiction ones.




Post 29

Tuesday, July 5, 2005 - 11:05pmSanction this postReply
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  By the way, in post 14 I wrote "I was once very fanatic as my schoolmates". The "fanatic" here means I was a "patriot", but now I'm not. It dosen't say I was a M__ist. I  have never been a M__ist.



Post 30

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 7:57amSanction this postReply
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femino,
I am pleased that we may actually have more in agreement than it first appeared. Yes, the provocative tune of the first post of this thread sounds more like political rhetorics than well reasoned arguments. In the end, each of us individual must not just swallow everything that is fed to us. We need to observe with our own eyes, and think with our own mind. It doesn't matter what your previous conviction is. You've read Ayn Rand and you are here. That speaks for itself.

Maybe I should also get hold of copies of Chinese Ayn Rand books and compare them with the original.

btw, your English, especially your vocabulary is excellent.

Regards,
Hong




Post 31

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 11:40pmSanction this postReply
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    Hong, thank you for your praise of my English. But I'm not so excellent. Although I have memorized many words, I have to use a cyber-dictionary as the assistant tool. I also find the usage of prepositions is hard to master. And the post 0 has been abridged from the original work, because some sentences are either hard to translate, or advices to Ch___se people.

 

    I think Beijingren living in 500000 years ago are not our ancestors. A comparison of the mitochondrial DNA of humans from many races and regions suggests that all of these DNA sequences have evolved from a common ancestor sequence, which comes from one woman. She and her tribe lived in Africa 150000 years ago. If she is our ancestor, it is reasonable to conclude that Beijingren have been extinct, and they have nothing to do with us.




Post 32

Thursday, July 7, 2005 - 7:31amSanction this postReply
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femino,
You are right about the "Bejing yan-ren". It was an extinct homo species. I made a mistake and I realized it.

Regards,

Hong




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