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Friday, October 28, 2005 - 2:44pmSanction this postReply
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Could those of us who are interested in the isssue of "privacy lies" (as opposed to its consequences for Leonard Peikoff's handling of certain documents, or his personal credibilty on certain issues) continue the discussion on this thread?

The key text comes from Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand:
...lying to protect one's values from criminals is not wrong. If and when a man's honesty becomes a weapon that kidnappers or other wielders of force can use to harm him, then the normal context is reversed; his virtue would then become a means of serving the ends of evil. In such a case, the victim has not only the right but also the obligation to lie and to do it proudly.... (p. 275, paperback ed.)

There are men other than criminals or dictators to whom it is moral to lie. For example, lying is necessary and proper in certain cases to protect one's privacy from snoopers. An analysis covering such detail belongs, however, in a treatise on ethics. (p. 276)

Robert Campbell



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Friday, October 28, 2005 - 7:08pmSanction this postReply
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Robert, I am in the camp that says to tell snoopers, "It is none of your business."  Generally speaking, such self-assertiveness not only keeps oneself honest, but honors the right to privacy and makes clear to snoopers that you have that right and will enforce it.

As for how to deal with nosy busybodies who want to violate one's privacy through means ranging from nagging persistence to outright cunning and deception, I see a continuum ranging from annoyance to outright criminality.  This continuum of dishonesty on their part calls for a commensurate retaliatory use of force on my part.

I would need to write an entire article to address this, but to get to your point, I find that the "none of your business" answer suffices in most normal instances.  The price one pays is strained relations, but since I do not care to relate to snoopers, breaking those relations does not bother me.




Post 2

Friday, October 28, 2005 - 8:21pmSanction this postReply
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http://solohq.com/Forum/GeneralForum/0672.shtml#18

http://solohq.com/Forum/GeneralForum/0672_1.shtml#33

http://solohq.com/Forum/GeneralForum/0672_1.shtml#37

You're part way there, Luke.  Keep coming.




Post 3

Friday, October 28, 2005 - 11:18pmSanction this postReply
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I don't have time to write an entire polished article, so I'll put it as a series of terse propositions:

You have a right to defend what belongs to you. To some extent the normal rules of morality change when you or your property or rights are under attack or invaded. The famous Peikoff example -- of lying to protect knowledge of your children's whereabouts from a knife-wielding maniac -- can be extended. You have a "property" right to certain kinds of information about yourself; therefore there is a right to privacy (properly and narrowly defined).

Therefore, if (1) you have to lie to defend something, whether it is *tangible* -- like gold or lives, or *intangible* -- like intellectual property (an idea in a document) or privacy (information about yourself), AND if (2) it is something the attacker or invader is not entitled to, you are morally justified in doing so.

Note: There are a lot of details to be ironed out here. The meaning of "private" information and "entitled to" have to be determined in each case.

Example: I am entitled to ask and not have you lie to me about relevant personal information about your job experience in a job application, but not about your sexual orientation or marriage relations or fidelity if I am a newspaper reporter paid to create scandals.

--Philip Coates

(Edited by Philip Coates
on 10/28, 11:34pm)




Post 4

Friday, October 28, 2005 - 11:26pmSanction this postReply
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I remember arguing this on OWL with Diana Hsieh a few years back. If memory serves, she was taking what I consider to be the intrinsicist view that only direct initiation of physical force justifies lying ...and she wrote some articles on honesty regarding this?

I was arguing essentially my position that I just posted...which essentially comes down to: Invading privacy -is- an initiation of physical force. As is trespass, copyright violation, stealing a patented idea...etc. and other things which don't seem on the surface to be "physical".

But which are.

Phil
(Edited by Philip Coates
on 10/28, 11:36pm)




Post 5

Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 12:48amSanction this postReply
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Criticism of Peikoff's position ignores a significant aspect of context: we live among people whose culture encourages many irrational bigotries, often based on suspicion of conduct that is condemned for religious and other arbitrary "reasons."

So take the most obvious referent for Peikoff's caveat. You are engaged in private conduct that by rational standards is perfectly moral, but which is condemned by the false morality of the dominant religion. The same religion also induces in its adherents an atavistic belief in universal, inborn moral evil - original sin - so that your refusal to disclose your private conduct will place you, in the minds of religious "moralists," under suspicion for whatever "evil" they were inquiring into. And reprisals - not necessarily force, but irrationally reduced opportunity for cooperation and trade - will follow.

The principle of honesty is first a principle of individual cognition, and secondly a principle for acting in one's interest in a social context of mutual rationality. Absent such a context, one needs to act in accordance with reality as it is, and not as one wishes it were. If that includes misleading bigots about matters they should never have dragged into the public sphere, so be it. A rational man is under no obligation to collaborate - even by silence - with inquisitors.




Post 6

Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 1:08amSanction this postReply
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I think its best if consensual contracts and trades are enforced, to lie in such a circumstance would be an initiation of force (stealing)... but in most cases lying is not something that could be considered an initiation of force.

In most cases its best not to lie, not because its an initiation of force, but because when you lie, people trust you less, and you loose your ability to communicate. In cases where someone is trying to pump you for information to harm you, you'll have to figure out what the best thing to say to him is.

If lying to him can help you escape from the situation, then that is the best route. Is he going to come back and harm you worse if you lie, then "Its none of your business." or "I don't know." is probably best.

I couldn't count the number of times I've said "I don't know" to my mother. : )



Post 7

Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 4:47amSanction this postReply
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Jeff, you make some excellent arguments for "privacy lying" in the posts to which you referred.  This one caught my eye, though:
The next time, I tell her I'm headed to the topless bar ...
I just get this naughty image flashing in my mind of her unexpected response:

"Oh, I am a dancer there!  In fact, I am going there right now myself!  I will see you there!  Promise you will buy some dances from me, okay?  I give excellent grindage -- and extras!", she said with a wink.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 10/29, 4:47am)




Post 8

Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 7:24amSanction this postReply
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Luke,
In that case, rather than lie, I would probably invite her to the coffee house... or elsewhere.

;)
Jeff





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