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Post 0

Monday, October 23, 2006 - 1:29amSanction this postReply
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Basically, I've been studying the science behind the possibility of life extension and biological immortality. I think it is indeed possible, if not probable, within our life time to see real life extension. The fact that organ and tissue regeneration through stem cell therapies is becoming an experimental fact [For Example, there was one man that was injected with stem cells in his heart (he was 80 years old), and his heart was fully regenerated by the stem cells.].

Inevitably, it's the question that has to be answer, how would you handle that actuality? Would you take such an extension? Is it a moral good?

I don't have any fully developed answers for these questions, so I leave it for you all to give yours.

-- Bridget



Post 1

Monday, October 23, 2006 - 6:34amSanction this postReply
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One's own life represents one's own ultimate value.  It follows that one can declare a healthy biological immortality as the ultimate moral good.  When I say "healthy" I mean that in every sense of the word: spirit, emotions, mind, body and inclusive of liberty at all those levels.  I would have no interest in living as an immortal slave, for example.  But if I lived in freedom and health, I would certainly embrace biological immortality.



Post 2

Monday, October 23, 2006 - 7:12amSanction this postReply
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I am only for extending a quality life. That means being healthy. For some people, that works.

By the way, the authors of the book Life Extension definitely have a Randian influence. They are Durk Pearson and Sandy Shaw.




Post 3

Monday, October 30, 2006 - 6:47amSanction this postReply
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I'll just wait until they can upload me. :)



Post 4

Monday, October 30, 2006 - 9:52amSanction this postReply
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You can always have your head frozen, like Ted Williams.




Post 5

Monday, October 30, 2006 - 10:00amSanction this postReply
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The best thing that's been discovered so far is what the late Gerontologist, Roy Walford, called "undernutrition without malnutrition": eating a nutritionally sound diet that is about a third lower in calories than what you would normally eat if you could eat all you wanted. So if your normal caloric intake were 2700 calories, you would reduce it to 1800.

Studies done with humans and with animals indicate that for optimal results, you should reduce your calories gradually over a period of a several years. So you definitely wouldn't jump from consuming 2700 calories to consuming 1800. You would need a period of adaptation, otherwise you'd find yourself energy deprived. You would, of course, lose weight, but if the weight loss were gradual, you could handle it while maintaining your energy and normal activities.

Also, the quality of food you consume must be very high. No junk food, lots of low-fat, nutrient dense fruits and vegetables, low-glycemic cereals and legumes and a little meat and fish. This program requires considerable dedication, but it also pays dividends in the long run, not only from the standpoint of life extension, but also in reducing one's risk of cancer, heart disease and other age-related diseases.

There are some new supplements on the market that are also worth considering. Bruce Ames, a professor of Biochemistry, has discovered two which, in combination, have been shown to improve metabolic function while decreasing oxidative stress: acetyl-l-carnitine and alpha-lipoic acid.

In three articles in the February 19, 2002 issue of Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Ames and his colleagues reported that when the supplements were given to older rats, they did better on memory tests, had more pep, and the energy-producing organelles in their cells worked better.

Said Ames, "The brain looks better, they are full of energy - everything we looked at looks more like a young animal."

"The animals seem to have much more vigor and are much more active than animals not on this diet, signaling massive improvement to these animals' health and well-being," said former UC Berkeley post-doctoral fellow Tory M. Hagen, now an assistant professor at the Linus Pauling Institute at Oregon State University, Corvallis. "And we also see a reversal in loss of memory.

Dr. Ames has also published a paper stating that a deficiency of folic acid, vitamins C, E, B6 , B12, niacin or zinc causes DNA strand breaks, oxidative lesions and increased susceptibility to cancer. Dr. Ames compared a deficiency of any one of these micro-nutrients to the DNA damaging effects of radiation. When DNA strands are damaged, the body becomes more vulnerable to cancer.

Ames stated that a micro-nutrient deficiency may explain why people who eat the fewest fruits and vegetables have about double the rate for most types of cancer when compared to those with the highest intake. Fruits and vegetables are a rich source of the micro-nutrients that protect DNA against changes that can lead to cancer. Dr. Ames’ conclusion was:

“Common micro-nutrient deficiencies are likely to damage DNA by the same mechanism as radiation and many chemicals… Remedying micro-nutrient deficiencies should lead to a major improvement in health and an increase in longevity at low cost.”

Ames is a well respected expert on cancer. He is a Professor of Biochemistry & Molecular Biology at the University of California-Berkeley and developed the internationally recognized “Ames Test” that is used for determining if a chemical damages cellular DNA.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer
on 10/30, 10:01am)




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Post 6

Monday, October 30, 2006 - 10:26amSanction this postReply
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You can always have your head frozen, like Ted Williams.



My head is my least favorite part of my body.  I wonder if they could freeze my right knee instead.




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Post 7

Monday, October 30, 2006 - 1:59pmSanction this postReply
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This reminds me of a short story by Isaac Asimov, but I don't remember the name of it.  Due to a huge increase in life expectancy, the world was ridiculously overpopulated.  When a family increased their size through childbirth they were forced to reduce their size through death.  They had to pick a member of the family to murder, basically, for every child that was born.  In this story, the main character was an expectant father whose wife was in the delivery room giving birth to triplets and he still didn't know who he was going to kill so that his children could be born.  He ended up going crazy and killing 3 hospital employees.

Did I have a point?  Oh yeah, I don't think life extension is a very good idea.  See above.




Post 8

Monday, October 30, 2006 - 7:33pmSanction this postReply
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Remind me again why overpopulation is actually a problem, or even a concern?

At the current rate of technological advancement, I'm pretty confident I won't die of old age. It will either be a freak accident, or a war with machines or humans that gets me.



Post 9

Monday, October 30, 2006 - 9:10pmSanction this postReply
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Intensification, not Extension is the Solution

My sister, a cousin, and two aunts dropped dead of un-diagnosed heart conditions in their twenties. While she was in France on a vacation, my father's girlfriend was crushed to death by someone commiting suicide. This month a pitcher for the Yankees flew into an apartment building less than a block from where I live. And that leaves out rogue meteors.

Yes, life extension through medicine is here, and coming more and more every day. But we live only in the NOW and everyone dies in the TODAY. Some people waste an awful lot of now before they get to then. If you are going to jog just for the good of your health, at least do it listening to music you would be happy to die by. Beethoven's Ninth Symphony is great, but the Pastoral also has its merits.

Ted Keer, 30 October, 2006, NYC

In edited response to Bridget below, don't get me wrong, I'm all for both bigger and better. I just think that fantasizing about longer life should not distract one from actually living life. The Soylent Green allusion is a joke aimed at those who recall its soundtrack.

[Added in response to post #10 below.]

(Edited by Ted Keer
on 10/30, 10:57pm)




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Post 10

Monday, October 30, 2006 - 10:31pmSanction this postReply
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But you haven't proven why life extension is inherentally bad. Life extension is merely what you do everyday, from brushing your teeth to making sure you look both ways before you cross the street are just simple examples of this life extension. Life extension now is becoming more than the simple things of survival, reaching further into a deeper understanding of the origin of biological life.

Moreover, this enterprise is in itself driven not by a fear of death, but rather a love of life. To do what you can to make your life the best possible, and to ensure against its annihilation is a moral good, perhaps it is the highest moral good by virtue of the fact that all other moral goods are the resultant of this yearning to live and to live well. I know most folks understand where I'm going, but whatever objections you may raise, you need to critically consider why life ought to be limited by anything if your mind has the means to postpone, circumvent, and/or nullify such obstacles. From flight to the atomic bomb, man's mind has ultimately flouted what one could call limitations in that without his mind he could have never been able to do such things. Life extension truly follows this form since it demands the best of our minds and our 'souls', to reshape ourselves and existence into something better. Life extension could be considered the stuff of dreams for it takes a great mind and a strong heart to dream such a dream.

-- Bridget
(Edited by Bridget Armozel
on 10/30, 10:35pm)




Post 11

Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 12:55pmSanction this postReply
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Deanna wrote,
Did I have a point? Oh yeah, I don't think life extension is a very good idea. See above.
Based on a science fiction novel in which people are required to kill a family member in order to have another child? Do you think that this is a realistic basis on which to argue that people shouldn't improve the length and quality of their lives?

What you are suggesting, in so many words, is that the living should sacrifice their lives for the sake of future generations -- that rather than abstain from having more children, people should abort the length of their own lives, by committing a form of suicide. For what is it, if not suicide, for a person to refuse to extend the length and quality of his life when it is medically possible for him to do so?

Besides, there is no reason to believe that extending maximum lifespan will result in overcrowding, if people are required to support their own children and are not allowed to pass that burden onto society. People are not going to bring more children into the world that they cannot afford to feed and clothe. And in fact, the freer and more economically advanced a society is, the fewer are the number of children per family. It is only collectivism, as expressed in the idea that one can pass one's parental responsibilities onto to others, that could lead to an overcrowded planet.

Nor, contrary to Paul Erlich, is a "population bomb" about to explode, By present estimates, the earth's population will stabilize just short of 11 billion in the year 2200.

- Bill




Post 12

Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 12:56pmSanction this postReply
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Dean,
I wasn't being serious.  I remember that Isaac Asimov story because it was a cleverly written dark comedy, emphasis on comedy.  I forget sometimes that people can't hear me chuckling to myself over the internet. 




Post 13

Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 8:08pmSanction this postReply
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I am a big proponent of life extension and technology and desire to live an indefinate non-biologically pre defined life span.  I have been involved in extropian circles for some time and just last month attended the 2006 Alcor conference.  Desiring to live an indefinite lifespan is the natural logical consequence of loving life, but many people on this forum find value in death, as has been discussed previously -

http://rebirthofreason.com/Forum/ArticleDiscussions/1303_1.shtml#22

http://rebirthofreason.com/cgi-bin/SHQ/SHQ_FirstUnread.cgi?Function=FirstUnread&Board=2&Thread=1166

http://rebirthofreason.com/Forum/Quotes/0859.shtml#0




Post 14

Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 5:14amSanction this postReply
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Michael,


...but many people on this forum find value in death, as has been discussed previously -

Interesting that you included one of my posts.  I vaguely remember our exchange on that thread, and defy you to find anything that I've posted on this (or any other) forum that even suggests that I "find value in death".


Summer




Post 15

Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 7:26amSanction this postReply
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Far better to claim that those seeking 'eternal life' are the ones who fear death as an integral aspect of life.....



Post 16

Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 7:33amSanction this postReply
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Strictly speaking, for those of us who have kid(s), we never completely die... ;-)



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Post 17

Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 7:48amSanction this postReply
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Far better to claim that those seeking 'eternal life' are the ones who fear death as an integral aspect of life.....
Death is the cesation of existence, it is rational and logical to wish to avoid it if you value your life and existence.  It does not give life meaning or purpose, it does not teach one to truly value life, it is the end of all values and the potential to even have values.  Looking both ways before crossing the street is a 'fear' of death.  You wish to attribute all the negative and irrational aspects of fear, like a phobia for spiders or large open spaces, to this kind of fear.  Fear is proper and rational when it directs ones actions to avoid something undersirable.  How about trying to post some substance Robert, instead of poor attempts at profound sounding aphorisms.  You sound like "The Sphinx" from Mystery Men. 

I can come up with lame aphorisms just as well.   "You must control death, or death will control you!"  or "Only if you love life will life love you!" 




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Post 18

Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 10:34amSanction this postReply
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Anyone here who says they don't fear death are either lying or deluding themselves. The thought of my life ending, and not spending anymore time with the people I love and doing the things that I love scares the crap out of me and do you know why? Because I'm an atheist and I know my life will truly end when I die. No afterlife, nothing! Michael Dickey is right, if one values life you do whatever you can to extend that life as that would be the logical conclusion to that value. To say otherwise means one is a nihilist and does not value life. If you are sick with a bacterial infection we take penicillin to extend our lifespan. Does it make sense to say I will embrace death because I don't fear it and not take the penicillin? These are the thoughts of religionists who oppose any medical technology and I would be surprised to hear it from any who call themselves objectivists. I hope that is not the case here on RoR.

And those that would oppose extending life spans if logically consistent must also oppose ALL forms of life extension technologies such as penicillin, anti-viral drugs, MRIs, CAT scans, chemotherapy, vaccines, etc. Otherwise why are people picking and choosing their life extension technologies? Or desiring to pick an arbitrary age for their death?

Dying is not pretty, it is not desirable, and it is not something any rational being ought to seek or embrace. It is often excruciatingly painful physically for the one dying, and loved ones left behind are wrought with sadness and despair for losing someone they valued so much. You would have to be some sick masochist to say they're ok with that, or just be in denial over the reality of death.

The scariest thing about my marriage that my wife and I talk about is the fact we know one of us will die first, and that the other must continue on living. The scary part is being the one that doesn't die first, because life after a spouse dies, especially if married to for decades, is a living hell. Perhaps some of you have not watched people die or see distraught grandmothers have to deal with their husband dying after being married to them for 40 years. Perhaps you haven't seen people sick with cancer or other terminal diseases, and perhaps some of you have not witnessed the immense pain other family members go through. Perhaps some of you have not buried loved ones and family members. I would think most of you have experienced this already. What thoughts went through your mind? Or were some people here narcissistic to the point you could not empathize with that pain? It is not desirable and it is incredibly painful to watch. Seeing a grown man, once strong emotionally and physically, break down and cry and wither into a frail and weak physical state wrought with cancer is not something you want to see.

My father's sister died at the age of 76. A friend of his asked well she was probably happy to have lived that long to which my father quipped back "Nobody wants to die, I don't care how old they are" but I see that my father was wrong. Apparently people do want to die.





Post 19

Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 11:32amSanction this postReply
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Here's an interesting collection of links on the subject, for anyone interested.

http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Individual/Life/




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