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Post 20

Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 12:08pmSanction this postReply
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I vaguely remember our exchange on that thread, and defy you to find anything that I've posted on this (or any other) forum that even suggests that I "find value in death".

Summer
Hi Summer, my intent was to link to the threads, not particular posts.  I don't recall anything you said in particular that suggested you found some value in death and did not search for them, but it's clear that many people who posted in these various threads do argue that in some twisted way death is a good thing.




Post 21

Wednesday, November 1, 2006 - 11:59pmSanction this postReply
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Someone said that every man's death is an accident to that man. Dickey is right to find eager acceptance of it weird. But the Stoics and Epicurus were also right to view it not as an evil, but as a nothing. Something not to be preferred, but never to be feared. (For John, let me qualify that that dying - as a drawn out process - is a horror, and one would hope for the guts to end it or for the friends to help.)

Ted

BTW, I read last night in Ayn Rand Answers that the Soviets outlawed suicide, and punished violators with the death penalty.
(Edited by Ted Keer
on 11/02, 12:03am)




Post 22

Friday, November 3, 2006 - 9:51amSanction this postReply
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I would agree that life extension is valuable, but I also don't believe that one should obsess over it or become unrealistic about the possibility of it.  I am not sure it is something we will conquer any time soon, if ever.  We just do not know enough yet.  One point I remember hearing from someone was - are you upset about not being alive in 1500?  You were dead from forever until the time you were born, and you don't even think about that.



Post 23

Friday, November 3, 2006 - 4:12pmSanction this postReply
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Kurt,

That argument, that one doesn't fret about not already having been alive forever, was made by the Stoics and the Epicureans. Whoever you heard it from was obviously born 2,000 years too late.

Ted



Post 24

Saturday, November 4, 2006 - 6:46pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,
Again, I wasn't being serious.  I shoulda included a smilie or something in that post.  I don't know if Asimov was making some kind of political statement himself when he wrote that story.  I found it quite comical myself and preposterous.  My mistake for thinking that everyone would understand what I meant.




Post 25

Sunday, November 5, 2006 - 4:27amSanction this postReply
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Deanna,

Please stop apologizing. There is such a thing as rhetorical generosity. One should always attempt to take a person's remarks in the best possible way - give them the benefit of the doubt. The ease of misunderstanding a person's on-line statements, given the impossibility of the immediate feedback of body language and vocal tone is something anyone who has been on-line for more than a few months should understand. I laughed when I read your post, and saw the obvious satire implied. One would have to assume that you were a psychopath to advocate population control by that method, or at least a Red Chinese apparatchik, and puppy-killer to boot. I can't see anything you've ever posted that would justify such a miserly interpretation of your post. And I am also surprised that posters here would not have seen Asimov's satirical style in it as well.

Ted



Post 26

Sunday, November 5, 2006 - 5:56amSanction this postReply
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Hmmm - nothing wrong with stomping puppies.... [kittens, however, are another matter..]  ;-)



Post 27

Sunday, November 5, 2006 - 10:27amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Not THAT much rhetorical generosity.

[the smiley face doesn't help much]



Post 28

Sunday, November 5, 2006 - 4:00pmSanction this postReply
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I wonder what the country would be like, if instead of Democrats and Republicans being the dominant parties, we had dog-lovers and (blech!) cat-"lovers" as the major factions instead. Robert, given that Heinlein's Time Enough for Love has made my cry every time I have read it (yes, as a well adjusted dog-lover I can admit that) I will forgive your ridiculous pro-cat sentiments, for the moment. And that book will be of interest to those interested in longevity. The hero is an immortal who has become disillusioned with life. In a Scheherazde like manner, his ancestors convince him not to kill himself until he has told his life story. It is not the best of Heinlein's works with which to begin, rather I would recommend Friday for that purpose. But Time Enough for Love is very close to my heart.

Ted



Post 29

Sunday, November 5, 2006 - 8:19pmSanction this postReply
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As an individualist, I would of course prefer an individualist cat over a serval dog any day of the week [aside from the fact that cats are smarter than dogs anyway...]...



Post 30

Sunday, November 5, 2006 - 8:37pmSanction this postReply
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The Feline Fallacy

First, both humans and Dogs are pack animals, not herd animals or hermits. (See my posts on animal mind.) The structures of a wolf pack, a band of mustangs and a pride of lions all mirror the state of nature from which we emerged. Cats, like bears, tigers, sharks, turtles and orangutans come together only to breed. A cat with its cortex removed and its reptile brain left intact will act almost identically after as before. But a dog will not function as a dog with its grey matter excised.

Second, Cats are not individualists. They just think we are trees.

I don't begrudge you your little boxmessing furspitter. But I know people who feed the birds and poison the cats who enter their yards.

Ted



Post 31

Sunday, November 5, 2006 - 8:38pmSanction this postReply
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For those interested in life extension, you will enjoy the news item I posted on Ray Kurzweil.

Ted



Post 32

Sunday, November 5, 2006 - 8:58pmSanction this postReply
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The Canine Fallacy

Domestic cats most resemble lions in their social preferences, as in "a PRIDE of lions" as opposed to a PACK of dogs. Dogs have had their brains bred out of them. If not trained well by an intelligent human they have no brains at all. Which is my only gripe against dogs, so many of them are owned by stupid humans and so behave stupidly [like chase cats]. Puppies, however, still have some potential as useful animals. I would never hurt a puppy, if fact I rather like the cute little critters. My preference is to have a cat. With a cat, if you treat him well, you have a companion. Having a dog is like having a tumor.



Post 33

Sunday, November 5, 2006 - 9:21pmSanction this postReply
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The 3-hour discussion with Ray Kurtzweil, who is a prolific writer and inventor, who is famous for his eponymous keyboards, and who appeared on Steve Allen's "Ive Got a Secret" at 17 to play on piano some music which was generated by a computer program he wrote, was very interesting. The show will be repeated 11/11/06 at 9AM on CSPAN2. For those who do not have this channel, streaming video is available on-line at CSPAN2.org as the show airs.

All of Kurtzweil's sites, on issue3s from music to AI to life extension can be reached at kurtzweilAI.net

Ted

For those do not know Steve Allen, he was a brilliant, value-oriented and fundamentally decent man who left us far too soon.



Post 34

Sunday, November 5, 2006 - 9:37pmSanction this postReply
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Deanna wrote,
This reminds me of a short story by Isaac Asimov, but I don't remember the name of it. Due to a huge increase in life expectancy, the world was ridiculously overpopulated. When a family increased their size through childbirth they were forced to reduce their size through death. They had to pick a member of the family to murder, basically, for every child that was born. In this story, the main character was an expectant father whose wife was in the delivery room giving birth to triplets and he still didn't know who he was going to kill so that his children could be born. He ended up going crazy and killing 3 hospital employees.

Did I have a point? Oh yeah, I don't think life extension is a very good idea. See above.
I replied, "Based on a science fiction novel in which people are required to kill a family member in order to have another child? Do you think that this is a realistic basis on which to argue that people shouldn't improve the length and quality of their lives?"

Deanna replied,
Bill,
Again, I wasn't being serious. I shoulda included a smilie or something in that post. I don't know if Asimov was making some kind of political statement himself when he wrote that story. I found it quite comical myself and preposterous. My mistake for thinking that everyone would understand what I meant.
Okay, thanks for the clarification. But can you blame me for drawing the interpretation I did, when you wrote, "Did I have a point? Oh yeah, I don't think life extension is a very good idea. See above."? What does "See above" mean in this context, if not that you were somehow connecting Azimov's story to your rationale for opposing life extension? Then Ted weighed in
Deanna,

Please stop apologizing. There is such a thing as rhetorical generosity. One should always attempt to take a person's remarks in the best possible way - give them the benefit of the doubt. The ease of misunderstanding a person's on-line statements, given the impossibility of the immediate feedback of body language and vocal tone is something anyone who has been on-line for more than a few months should understand. I laughed when I read your post, and saw the obvious satire implied. One would have to assume that you were a psychopath to advocate population control by that method, or at least a Red Chinese apparatchik, and puppy-killer to boot. I can't see anything you've ever posted that would justify such a miserly interpretation of your post. And I am also surprised that posters here would not have seen Asimov's satirical style in it as well.
Give me a break here! I certainly wasn't assuming that Deanna advocated population control by that method, nor that Azimov did (now who's misreading whom?), but I did think that she was opposed to life extension on the grounds that it could result in the kind of overpopulation that could lead to these kinds of difficult choices.

So Deanna, were you also joking when you said that "I don't think life extension is a very good idea"? Just for purposes of clarification, where exactly do you stand on the issue? Thanks.

- Bill



Post 35

Sunday, November 5, 2006 - 9:41pmSanction this postReply
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The Canine Dilemma

Not all dogs are created equal, Mike, but most dog owners truly are unworthy of their charges. To that extent, the irresponsible and lazy should indeed get cats, given that one need only feed and scoop after them. True value pursuers know that a dog will return any investment with a profitable interest. In any case, I am allergic to cats, so it's simply a matter of acknowledging reality. If you wish to engage in felinophilia, I support your right to do so in private. Just don't expect me to sanction or advocate such questionable behavior.

Ted






Post 36

Monday, November 6, 2006 - 6:12amSanction this postReply
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At least cats do it in the litter box - dogs doo it all over the place.....

Allergic to cats, huh - explains your dog-gone position, a deficiency on YOUR part...

(Edited by robert malcom on 11/06, 6:15am)




Post 37

Monday, November 6, 2006 - 6:37amSanction this postReply
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Time Enough for Love was also Heinlein's treatise on destroying the incest taboo.

**spoilers follow**
The main charachter, Lazerus Long, buys two slaves (to free them) who are brother and sister, but genetically compatable and helps them develope their romantic relationship. He later marries his adopted daughter, sleeps with and marries female cloned twins made from his own DNA (again, after ensuring there could be no genetic defects) and ultimately goes back in time and falls in love and sleeps with his own mother.
**/end spoilers**

That being said, it was a very enjoyable story and was emotionally powerfull, though I don't understand why Heinlien set out to destroy the incest taboo, while he makes a lot of rational points (that it's only value really was to defer major genetic defects in a time when no one knew anything about genetics) I don't see it as any kind of major problem in the world that needed rectifying.



Post 38

Monday, November 6, 2006 - 12:06pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,
For clarification purposes, personally I don't think I would want to live indefinitely.  I think I would get tired and possibly bored.  Ask me again when I'm 70, and I might have a different attitude.  If someone else wants to be immortal, then I don't think it's my business as long as they aren't doing it at my expense, either physically or financially.




Post 39

Monday, November 6, 2006 - 4:08pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

I only owned one dog, a German Sheppard mix. She shat in the far corner of our back yard, as far from the house as possible. We also left newspaper out in the basement, upon which she would go if sick over-night or when terrified during thunderstorms. (We lived on the edge of the Pine Barrens, but adopted her off the street in Philadelphia, and believe she had some trauma associated to loud bangs.) She knew that she was not allowed upstairs in the house. But during thunderstorms she would crouch at the bottom of the steps and whine. Someone would always invite her upstairs at that point - and she knew by her body language that it was a special privilege. In any case, whenever she needed either to crap or barf she would paw at the back door. The house did not smell like litter.

Even Heinlein was a cat person, so, as I said, I will recognize the rights of felinophiles to their "lifestyle" choice.

Woof!

Ted



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