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Post 0

Monday, May 28, 2007 - 10:59pmSanction this postReply
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Where would you live if you could not live in the USA?  Why do you want to live in the USA?  Is this a good place for a rational individualist?  Traditionalists will be shocked, but the objective facts indicate that you might be more at home in the former East Germany.  Note that cultures are complicated.  Nigeria actually rates high in "individualism" on some scales, but that includes a high degree of banditry.  The same applies to Russia, a land of the roughest and tumblest laissezist of fairings. If you want to do business there, bring a gun.  Failing that, you might find yourself  more at home in a former communist country with a strong secular culture, good industrial and information base and fundamental Western values.

 Consider Estonia.  They call it E-stonia for its information infrastructure.  Estonia has the second highest literacy rate in the world -- Iceland is first -- and literacy is measured not by the number of people who claim to be able to spell their own names, but by the per capita books published in the native language.  Think about that. 

It all depends on what is important to you... and if meeting a woman who has a fulltime career is high on your list, consider Hungary.

Yes, we have the Bill of Rights, but every nation has important sounding promises.  What counts is deeds, not words.  Where can you live your own life according to your own standards and see other people like yourself close by?  All of the following comes from ORGANIZATIONAL BEHAVIOR by Robert Kreitner and Angelo Kinicki, a textbook I was assigned for a college class in management.

GLOBE (Global Leadership and Organizational Behavior Effectiveness) is a massive effort begun in 1993 to empirically categorize and define  62 societies.  They accumulated these indices:
Power distance -- the "gap" between ruler and ruled in businesses and other organizations, as well as with the culture itself.
Uncertainty avoidance -- do people use social norms to pre-define roles and issues or is everything negotiable at any moment?
Institutional Collectivism -- the big picture
In-group Collectivism -- the sum of all those little pictures
Gender egalitarianism -- like here in the USA
Assertiveness -- should people be confrontational, have open disagreements in social gatherings?
Future Orientation -- do people put off the present enjoyments?
Performance Orientation --  are people rewarded for improvement and excellence?
Humane Orientation -- does "society" reward people for being generous?

POWER DISTANCE
High: Morocco, Russia, Argentina, Thailand
Low: Denmark, Netherlands, modern South Africa
UNCERTAINTY AVOIDANCE
High: Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, Austria, Denmark
Low: Russia, Hungary, Bolivia, Greece.
INSTITUTIONAL COLLECTIVISM
High: Sweden, South Korea, Japan, Singapore, Denmark
Low: Former East Germany, Hungary, Argentina, Greece, Italy
IN-GROUP COLLECTIVISM
High: India, Iran, Morocco, China, Egypt
Low: Denmark, Sweden, Finland, New Zealand, Netherland, Norway
GENDER EGALITARIANISM
High: Hungary, Slovenia, Denmark, Sweden, Poland
Low: South Korea, Egypt, Morocco, India, China
ASSERTIVENESS:
High: Former East Germany, Austria, Greece, USA, Spain
Low: Sweden, New Zealand, Japan, Switzerland, Kuwait
FUTURE ORIENTATION
High: Singapore, Switzerland, Netherlands, English Canada, Denmark
Low: Russia, Italy, Kuwait, Poland, Argentina
PERFORMANCE ORIENTATION
High: Singapore, Hong Kong, New Zealand, Taiwan, USA
Low: Russia, Argentina, Poland, Italy, Kuwait
HUMANE ORIENTATION
High: Philippines, Ireland, Malaysia, Egypt, Indonesia
Low: Former West Germany, Spain, France, Singapore, Brazil


From "Modernization: Whose Afraid of Ronald McDonald?" Inglehart and Baker, THE FUTURIST, April 2001.
SECULAR-RATIONAL and SELF-EXPRESSION
Highest:  East Gernany, West Germany,Sweden, Denmark, Norway,Japan

SECULAR RATIONAL and SURVIVAL
Highest:  Estonia, Lithuania, Russia, Latvia

USA is low on the secular-rational scale, having a strong belief in God, national pride, and authority, but high on self-expression, having good quality of life and low trust in people, being close to Ireland/Northern Ireland, Australia, England, and Canada.

From BUSINESS HORIZIONS, "Cross Cultural Communication for Managers" by Munter
HIGH CONTEXT CULTURES establish social trust first, value goodwill, agreement and consensus, and negotiations are slow and ritualistic.
China, Korea, Japan, ... Arabs,.... Greeks...
LOW CONTEXT CULTURES get down to business first, value expertise and performance, agreement is specific and legalistic, negotiations are efficient.
Germans, Swiss, Scandanavia, North America, England...

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 5/28, 11:10pm)




Post 1

Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 12:56amSanction this postReply
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Singapore looks promising. Maybe I'll visit there in a year or so. I'm also highly interested in Hong Kong and Australia. The US is pretty great though. So visiting to see what its like for myself seems like a good option.

I'd suggest looking at Heritage and wikipedia to get a feeling for language/culture and politics.



Post 2

Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 6:46amSanction this postReply
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Unless it has changed recently, Singapore has corporal punishment for chewing bubble gum, and the death penalty for drug trafficking.

Ted




Post 3

Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 12:24pmSanction this postReply
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I can live without gum and drugs. The gum ban is a positive feature in my opinion. Its a city, not a farm. I don't like to chew gum myself, and I dislike the sight of gum on the ground.



Post 4

Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 12:33pmSanction this postReply
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I happen to agree with your dislike of gum, Dean, but is a police state an acceptable alternative?  Back when they caned that kid in the early late eighties / early nineties for spray-painting graffiti, the laws against chewing gum and the penalties for mere drug possession were widely publicized.  I guess we should also have the stockades for fat people wearing low cut jeans?  And to think that I was lambasted for simply suggesting that attempted suicide be made a capital crime.

Ted




Post 5

Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 12:41pmSanction this postReply
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As a Dane, I suppose I should remark how highly Denmark rates on Mike's lists.  But the fact that nowhere in the country is above sea level and the fact that the most popular name for newborn boys there is Mohammed aren't mentioned.  And of course, there's the cradle-to-grave welfare state, the high taxes, and the high suicide rate.  There are more Danes in the US than there are in Copenhagen.  Entire communities in the Netherlands and other such countries are moving to Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the U.S. 

The fantasy in our heads may seem better than the facts before our faces.  Let's hear some immigration/emigration rates and some population growth rates for these countries.

Ted




Post 6

Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 5:24pmSanction this postReply
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The poll should be edited immediately to add "Stay in the U.S." and "none of the above" as options. Indeed, were things to get so bad, I'd rather be a rebel here than a loyalist in Denmark.

Ted



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Post 7

Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 7:48pmSanction this postReply
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Ted Keer:  The fantasy in our heads may seem better than the facts before our faces.  Let's hear some immigration/emigration rates and some population growth rates for these countries.
Ted, I am looking for the bases for the charts and graphs.  My assumption is that the metrics are more or less objective.  The USA is a religious country, with high nationalist sentiment, obedience to authority and tolerance for self-expression.  Interpersonal trust is high in the USA.   Those things are important. How they get measured is another question, entirely.  However, these are not "fantasies."  Also, emigration/immigration can be complicated.  Argentina is a favorite for people who dislike Europe but are not attracted to the USA.  Argentina has a lot of immigration. 

The poll is what it is.  The administrators changed it a little.  If you want to submit a totally different poll, you are free to do so. 

What I had hoped is that other people would look into other metrics, other scales, and recommend other countries on the basis of other values. 

We all love the good old USA.  But why?  What matters?  I posted here a link to Penn & Teller burning an American flag in the White House.  This is (or was) part of their routine stage show.  So, in America, self-expression is more important than nationalism.  Penn & Teller, Julie Sweeney, Richard Dawkins  (oops!  British!), and others indicate that as religious as the nation may be statistically, there is a lot of room for differences of opinion.

Do you have scales and studies for diversity and tolerance that you would like to share?
(Of course, we Objectivists decry "tolerance" because we have strict standards that demand intolerance.  So, what you need is a country that is intolerantly capitalist, like Singapore or Switzerland, perhaps.

How much freedom you can buy is also a factor.  Michael Jackson seems to have found happiness in Bahrain.  John Frederiksen did not leave Norway for Cyprus because he valued freedom of speech.  And you will notice that he did not come to the USA, either.  See Ed Hudgins' Ragnar Shrugged here on RoR.  Do you imagine that he made a horrible mistake because as a mixed-premise businessman, he did not know which side his Law of Identity was buttered?  Do you care that a million people from India chose the USA or that one billionaire chose Cyprus?  Myself... I always heard good things about Rhodes...




Post 8

Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 8:07pmSanction this postReply
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Michael, you should well know that a poll is not a poll. I'm quite sure Rand mentioned somewhere that the law of identity does not apply in that one case.

I answered some of your questions on the poll discussion thread. I humbly suggest that you repost the above post there, and ask that further post here be directed there, or vice versa, as thou wish.

I'm half way thru Asapasia.

Ted



Post 9

Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 8:50pmSanction this postReply
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If I could not  live in USA, I would choose West Virginia, almost haven!
Ciro




Post 10

Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 8:57pmSanction this postReply
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My sister loved living in WV, except that the locals kept shooing her away with shotguns. She was working for the EPA, just surveying wildflowers - but they knew the "enemy" when they saw her.

Ted



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Post 11

Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 1:24pmSanction this postReply
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I got arrested in West Virginia.  Got me for smuggling books in.  I got off on a technicality, though.

Nobody there could actually prove they were books.




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Post 12

Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 7:46pmSanction this postReply
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True enough, Bob - the local library there had only one book - a picture book of the 'Colors of Coal"



Post 13

Friday, June 1, 2007 - 10:46amSanction this postReply
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Hey, now!  I'm sure they've got lots of books of gospel music and Loretta Lynn in West Virginia and every building and highway named after Robert Byrd :-).

Jim




Post 14

Friday, June 1, 2007 - 11:16amSanction this postReply
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Gospel music is for those who cannot read sheets...;-)
and while the roads may be named after R Bird - like him, they're full of sh-t......




Post 15

Friday, June 1, 2007 - 12:03pmSanction this postReply
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     If I had the money, I'd do a Marlon Brando.

LLAP
J:D




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Post 16

Friday, June 1, 2007 - 11:07pmSanction this postReply
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If I could, I'd be able to turn invisible, and be able to fly. Oh, and assume any shape I could imagine, read minds, move things by will alone, and be able to control other people's minds.

Sounds silly, doesn't it? Like a child of ten fantasizing like, well, a child of ten.

This discussion has devolved into the joke inherent in its premise. Where would you live if not the USA? You mean, "Are you taking classes in Estonian or Dutch?" What, you say they speak English? They do that in America too. Are you sure that Taiwan or Singapore will remain free and friendly to foreign immigrants? But you don't believe the same about the US? You think the "War against Terror" is a mistake? So did the Danes (cartoon riots) and the Dutch (Van Gogh, Fortuyn, Ayaan Hirsi Ali). Or perhaps you like your dictatorships inconsistent (Russia) your societies fragmented (Nigeria) and the ever present threat of civil war (Both)? Switzerland has a 5% m*slim population. The biggest m*slim "cultural" center outside of the Dar al Isl*m. They are purported to be training young men to make time pieces. Or was that detonation timers?

You won't kill to defend your way of life in the US? What will you do when you have to kill in your new fantasy home? You say it can't happen there? There were people who held the same opinion during the American Revolution. They're called Torontoans.

In the US, the cutthroats are largely assimilated and make up about 1% of the population. In every country in Western Europe they are what the Jews always were supposed to be - a fast-breeding, hostile, unassimilated minority, hostile and murderous towards their hosts, and bent on world domination. Blood libel and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion indeed!

This premise is a joke, a fantasy, a "when I grow up I'm going to be Superman" delusion that should not comfort, but should embarrass any person who spends five minutes actually planning out the real steps necessary to truly uproot oneself from the freest nation on earth like Alec Baldwin in a drunken post-election rant.

A trivia question - what's the one country on Earth that everyone claims to hate, and for which those same people would kill their own mothers to get a Visa? I'll give you a hint, it has the longest undefended borders on Earth.

Ted Keer



Post 17

Saturday, June 2, 2007 - 12:53pmSanction this postReply
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Ted:

     I'd call it Dailey's Dominion...and send an invite to all who are fed up with the too many narcissitic but influential  lawmakers running our country's GOVERNMENT into the hands of non-citizens whilst running roughshod laws over actual citizens.

     I do hope the name 'Thompson' is not an omen; doesn't seem to be from what I've read of him, but...

LLAP
J:D




Post 18

Monday, June 11, 2007 - 9:06amSanction this postReply
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I would live in New Zealand.



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