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Post 0

Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 3:38amSanction this postReply
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[I'm having insomnia, otherwise I'd have made an article out of this idea.]

1) There are people that feel the need to have been right all along -- the Intrinsicists (i.e., the Mystics)
2) There are people that just feel the need to have been heard -- the Subjectivists
3) There are people that feel the need to have the truth of the matter -- the Objectivists

I welcome any comments.

Ed




Post 1

Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 3:49amSanction this postReply
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Alright, since I'm such an insomniac right now, I'll post first.

;-)

I, myself, am a little concerned about the validity of #2 (the Subjectivists). My reason for concern is that, in conversations with me, Subjectivists have acted like Intrinsicists (almost trying to force "their" truth down MY throat). They aren't supposed to do that -- if they are to be consistent with their philosophy. In their philosophy, I'm supposed to be able to have "my" truth without any questioning or bickering about it. But they often don't seem to let me have that.

Has anyone else had this kind of experience?

Ed




Post 2

Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 4:06amSanction this postReply
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I figured it out! [sorry, I get a little giddy without any sleep]

There is a philosophical slippery-slope within Subjectivism which leads to Solipsism (the idea that you can only know that you exist, but not that anybody else does). If a certain Subjectivist had slid the slide all the way down to Solipsism, then the shout-down discussions that they have with me are simply a self-defense of their sanity. It's almost like they are talking to a voice in their own head (i.e., me), instead of to another person. In order to try and stay sane, they try to shout-down the dissenting voice.

True?

Ed




Post 3

Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 4:30pmSanction this postReply
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There is a philosophical slippery-slope within Subjectivism which leads to Solipsism (the idea that you can only know that you exist, but not that anybody else does).

I had no idea there was a word for that. Sol-ip-sism. One engaging would be a Solipsist, correct?

True?

I think yes. But I don't know how connected to staying sain this action is.  If it is connected, I don't think its a conscious undertaking.  Pop culture has embraced emotionalism disconnected from rational thought, so I'm not at all surprized by the outcome; bizarre argument styles.  I wish I knew if it was a subconscious way to attempt sanity.   But then again, insecure people insecure about their ideas do this, and it does appear to be a way for these people to remain, or seem "real" to themselves and everyone within earshot.  






Post 4

Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 4:39pmSanction this postReply
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The mind does wonderful things in its attempts to stabilize a deficiency [or two or three  or...].....;-)



Post 5

Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 6:24pmSanction this postReply
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Teresa,

One engaging would be a Solipsist, correct?
I think so (have never seen the term in print, though). It's hard to even imagine being or knowing a Solipsist. The idea of solipsism has been around since ancient Greek times (I'm pretty sure), but I think it was mostly used as a counter-factual -- to show how subjectivism/skepticism is something absurd on it's face.

And good point about pop culture. I'm thinking of punk rockers in a mosh-pit, "forcing" the reality of themselves on others by colliding with them. I'm real! I'm real! Can't you feel me banging against you?!

;-)


Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 6/21, 6:27pm)




Post 6

Friday, June 22, 2007 - 4:42pmSanction this postReply
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I started listening to Hitchen's "God is Not Great" today (up to chapter 8), and he used the word "Solipsism" twice already! LOL!   No doubt I would have missed it if Ed hadn't mentioned the term here.

Ted, if you want to borrow the CD's when I'm done, you're welcome to them.  




Post 7

Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 3:07pmSanction this postReply
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There is a sense in which the Mosh pits are a healthy phenomynon, as our culture is very much into the artificial dichotomy of reason and emotion, with repression of emotion serving as a major cultural control mechanism, diverting energy and purpose from real values and needs into artificial, symbolic, neurotic substitutes, and leaving people psychologically crippled and subject to being sucked into all manner of control games such as religion or politics.  

Note that the participants are volunteers.  The idea apparently to act out ones emotional responses to the music directly, as in a form of dance, but with fewer restriction on what is physically permissable, and an emphasis on releasing anger.  My understanding is that you're not supposed to do serious bodily harm or maim somebody, however.

Not that I'm a fan of Punk, BTW, but at least they are against many of the same things that I am.




Post 8

Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 7:22amSanction this postReply
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From an internal experience, perhaps "more gravy than grave" suddenly in my awareness without apparent substance, these words seem to have formed themselves:
1) There are people that feel the need to have been right all along -- the Intrinsicists (i.e., the Mystics)
2) There are people that just feel the need to have been heard -- the Subjectivists
3) There are people that feel the need to have the truth of the matter -- the Objectivists


Ed, your trichotomy is neither exhaustive nor exclusive. 
Not exhaustive:
What about "Salonists" those who seek someone who by outer appearence seems to know a lot and can thereby teach them.  They are disciples.  It is Authoritarianism, but in its purest form, the seeking ultimately not of a mere "author-ity" but of an Author.  (Consider the lyrics: "Our fathers' God to Thee, Author of Liberty, to Thee we sing.")

We know the classic study of the Authoritarian Personality with its F-scale.  The F (for "fascist") scale and the entire survey have been criticised for only identifying people with a certain kind of nominally "rightwing" ideology and ignoring leftwing authoritarians.  In those days, Bolsheviks, Stalinists, and others all exemplified the same bent as the putatively "conservative."  Eric Hoffer's The True Believer came closer to the truth, abstracting the essence and applying it to politics and religion both.  We see many of those same traits among "Objectivists." 

(Like Christianity and Communism, Objectivism preaches that once there was a golden age, but evil arose that stole it from us and now we face a powerful conspiracy but if we unite and teach others we can build a glorious new future.) 

Not exclusive:
You can find all three of your "isms" active in Objectivism.  Many people when reading The Fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged said, "Of course." That is why the books were, are, and will be popular.  We figure some of this out for ourselves or we have some sense that everyone else is wrong about everything -- and let us be damned but we won't go along with it.  (Note the anthemic pun in "we.")  Once exposed to the truth, I suspect that many want to be validated by others, not so much for agreement, but for identification.  I think that Rand's works would be bizarre, if once identified as an egoist, the hero were merely shunned.  Getting burned at the stake is so much more fulfilling.  I bet that inside your own head, Ed Thompson, you think that you rationally concluded, reasoning from first principles, and testing against external evidence, that Ayn Rand was accurate and precise in her assertions.  You carried out the same experiments and arrived at the same truths.  I think that if that is what you believe, then you are not very self-aware, but I could be wrong.  Maybe there are true "objectivist Objectivists"... but then, there would be "objectivist Other-ists" as for instance the skeptical atheist scientist inquirers who believe that government should fund science. 
In fact, you often can find all three within one person.  The process from instincism through salonism and subjectivism to objectivism is probably a shared experience.
 I keep searching for a prior reference for the following and if I cannot find one by the end of the 2007-2008 schoolyear, I'm going to claim it and see who sues.   I believe that there exists a study or essay that shows that the "authoritarian personality" is someone who assumes that their own conceits and prejudices are shared by "most people."  I have not watched an entire Superbowl.  I have never seen Rosie O'Donnell banter with Barbara Walters.  I wouldn't know Paris Hilton or that other girl who is like her but actually sings if they did not come with captions.  And I don't think that "everyone" is either this or that or something else in a neat box that I constructed.  The belief that people are complicated -- even the simple ones -- is called "individualism."




Post 9

Monday, June 25, 2007 - 7:48pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks Teresa, but I want Hitchens to have my money.

And you didn't have to look up rebarbative?

Ted

(Edited by Ted Keer
on 6/25, 8:23pm)




Post 10

Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 3:23amSanction this postReply
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And you didn't have to look up rebarbative?

I missed it.  Save me the trouble, why doncha?

Off to work, now.




Post 11

Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 6:29pmSanction this postReply
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Sorry, can't refer you to the proper context, since he didn't put the word in the index. It was somewhere around p. 80. I'd never heard it before, and it was the first time I've had to look up a word for years. W.F.Buckley usually comes up with a hard one, but his output now is not so high.

Ted



Post 12

Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 6:46pmSanction this postReply
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Mosh Pits?

I broke a rib and my boyfriend dislocated his arm. Talk about tender love making. It was the most romantic night of my life. White Zombie opened. Pantera were at top form. No one there doubted his own existence. (That is for people who listen to Smashing Pumpkins.) Of course, this was not some namby-pamby Phish-style mosh-pit. This was pure testosterone and steel-toed timberlands. We were conduits for the music, the emotions were those perhaps of warfare, of Siegfried's Funeral March, and the Ride of the Walkyries, but this is no different from the catharsis of the football field. Hah! And they don't want homo's in the military? Afraid we might hurt the straight boys?

Thanks for the memories, Ed.

Ted



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