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Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 7:43pmSanction this postReply
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Over the last year, I've taken an interest in the many debates being held between the popular atheist writers of the day (Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris, etc) and the various theists they get paired against at universities and elsewhere.  In these debates, the question always comes up that if religion is so bad for humanity, how come the atheistic communist regimes are responsible for death and destruction on a scale far greater than any religion had ever caused? This is a fair question asked by religionists, and I must say that the answers I hear for it on the part of prominent atheists are not very impressive.  I believe I've come up with a better answer to this question, and I wanted to test it out here:

To begin with, communism is only a political ideology, it is not in any way a moral philosophy or a system of ethics.  Communists, knowing that any institutions which held the previous social order in place needed to be eliminated, did away with religion in order to replace it with the almighty power of the state.  Communists used brute force to eliminate and supress society's generally accepted source of moral absolutes (religion), yet it replaced religion with no meaningful system of ideas that people could apply to their own lives.  All that was left was the advancement of the state, an institution characterized by nothing else but force. 

Regarding atheism's relationship to communism, I don't know the origins of Marxism well enough to say this for sure, but it seems likely that the underlying premise and motivation from which the ideas of communism flowed was not "God does not exist", rather it was a recognition of the gap in wealth between the few and the many at the time, followed by a general notion that collective ownership of property would lead to a life of abundance and liberation for all.  In other words, it is various notions of altruism and egalitarianism that are at the root of communism, not atheism.  I don't believe for a second that Marx began with the premise: "God does not exist, therefore there is nothing to stop me from creating a murderous political ideology".  It seems far more probable to believe that he may have been an atheist in his point of view, but that atheism was ancillary to his political ideas, and the antipathy that communism had toward religion had mostly to do with wanting to cut off the old social order at the roots to faciliate its rise to power. 

It should also be pointed out that atheism per se is also not a philosophy or system of ethics. Atheism represents no specific worldview.  This is evidenced by the fact that a communist, an Objectivist and a secular humanist could all call themselves atheists with no contradiction of any kind.    At it's root, atheism is merely a rejection of the cosmological and metaphysical claims that some humans make.  In reality, the term 'atheist' shouldn't even exist.  As Sam Harris and others point out, we don't have to refer to people who reject astrology and alchemy as "non-astrologers" or "non-alchemists". 

As such, atheism is not the primary driver of communism and its atrocities.  The horrors of communism stem from the concentration of too much power into the state and away from the private decision making of its individual citizens.  Absolute power corrupts absolutely.  Sure, atheism can be incorporated into bad ideas, but so can religion.




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Friday, October 26, 2007 - 1:22amSanction this postReply
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Pete, you wrote,
In these debates, the question always comes up that if religion is so bad for humanity, how come the atheistic communist regimes are responsible for death and destruction on a scale far greater than any religion had ever caused? This is a fair question asked by religionists, and I must say that the answers I hear for it on the part of prominent atheists are not very impressive.
I don't think it's a fair question at all, because it's tantamount to asking, "If Nazism is so bad for humanity, how come anti-Nazis (e.g., Communists) were responsible for more death and destruction than the Nazis?" Does the fact that some anti-Nazis were worse than the Nazis mean that Nazism isn't bad for humanity? No, of course it doesn't. Neither does the fact that some atheists were worse than some religionists mean that religion isn't bad for humanity.

Or suppose someone were to argue, "If the Democrats are so fiscally irresponsible, how come the Republicans have outspent them? The proper answer is: The fact that Democrats are fiscally irresponsible doesn't mean that the Republicans aren't.

The same is true of religious clerics and secular dictators: a pox on both their houses. Communism is simply another dogma -- another religion in secular clothing. Theists claim that you belong to God and that selfishness is a sin; Communists claim that you belong to the State and that profit is a bourgeois vice. Despite their seeming opposition, Theists and Communists have more in common than they'd care to admit.

- Bill



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Friday, October 26, 2007 - 5:56amSanction this postReply
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Except that Communism isn't a-theistic.... the state is their god, and they're just as religious about it in form and function as any Catholic or Islamist.....




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Friday, October 26, 2007 - 6:38pmSanction this postReply
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Was Marx an atheist?  Not according to Andy Blunden:

"I will quote Marx a lot, because my aim is to clarify Marx’s view, not my own, and specifically, to establish that Marx refused the label of ‘atheist’. "

http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/works/atheism.htm


Is Objectivism a religion? (Never mind... sorry I asked ...)

 
Buddhism and Confucianism can be considered “atheist religions” for seeking “the spirit within” and the path of “correct action” without praying to and getting revelations from external gods.  By this standard, Marxism surely qualifies as a religion. 
 
Marxism was opposed to religion on philosophical and political grounds.  As an extension of the Enlightenment, the labor movement of the nineteenth century was strongly anticlerical, as these lyrics from well-known songs illustrate:
Would you have mansions of gold in the sky,
And live in a shack, way in the back?
Would you have wings up in heaven to fly,
And starve here with rags on your back?
-- Joe Hill

You will eat, bye and bye,
In that glorious land above the sky;
Work and pray, live on hay,
You'll get pie in the sky when you die.
-- Joe Hill

The first successful Marxist state was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics; and the Bolsheviks were militant atheists. (See for instance, Peris, Daniel, Storming the Heavens: The Soviet League of the Militant Godless, Ithaca: Cornel University Press, 1998; and Husband, William B., Godless Communism: Atheism and Society in Soviet Russia 1917-1932, DeKalb: Northern Illinois University Press, 2000.) Nonetheless, there would be some then and now who claim a Marxist-Christian fusion.  They cite passages from the Bible in support of sharing wealth and helping the poor.  We can accept the existence of “social gospel” religionists who threw in with the progressive struggles of the 1960s. 
-- Atheists: Overlooked by Sociology? by Michael E. Marotta
 
 
 




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Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 5:22pmSanction this postReply
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Pete, I too am swept into this flood of atheist writers.  I enjoy their debates very much.  Hitchens is better on the stand than he is in writing (his self-importance is so reminiscent of Rand).  And I agree with you that some of their arguments aren't as stable as they think (perhaps unsurprisingly, I haven't seen a debate where the theist exposes these).

In your post you summarized Harris's argument about the nonsensical word: atheist.  This is more powerful than it would seem, and I think it's all you need.  This is how I like to approach it:

1. People act on their beliefs. (let's call this a positive belief)
2. People do not act premises they do not believe. (negative belief).  There usually has to be some talk of cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy here.
3. Atheism is a negation of theism.  So it is as absurd to explain a behavior as due to his atheism as it is to explain it due to his a-Thorism.
4. This begs the question: what beliefs did these people act on?
5. Whatever it was, could we say they were acting on reason?  Or that they were rational at all?  Or that their premises were rational?

Conclusion:  atheism isn't relevant to evil doings, but we would benefit from identifying the beliefs that were in the backdrop of 20th century massacres.




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