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Post 20

Tuesday, January 15 - 12:06pmSanction this postReply
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Ed says,

 

My impression from Dennis' initial post (before actually listening to Peikoff) was that Peikoff was either against or fearful of online Objectivism forums.

 

Here is how I assessed Peikoff’s overall perspective (above):

 

Peikoff’ advised that it was fine for people who were isolated to participate on-line as long as they were conscious of these problems and pitfalls.  In general, however, “indiscriminate” posting should not be a substitute for face-to-face discussion with other rational minds.

 

How does that imply that he is against such forums, or afraid of them? He clearly questions the value of devoting a lot of time to on-line discussions, but his primary point was that people needed to exercise some caution to avoid potential hazards to their thinking methods.  He was offering 'common sense' philosophical advice.  Period.  Take it or leave it.  Sheesh.

 




Post 21

Tuesday, January 15 - 8:25pmSanction this postReply
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Dennis,

Your quote above doesn't do justice to your whole introductory post -- which included as high a warning of danger for those advanced as for those naive. Now, to be fair, Yaron Brook's questions were awfully leading and hinted at a held bias; but Peikoff's answers -- to these highly-leading questions -- were actually pretty tame. Your post and the audio both speak for themselves, and folks will find their tones to be roughly equivalent or not. I did not, and said so (thinking that this perceived disparity had something to do with the hint of animosity that is found in this thread).

Ed




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Post 22

Wednesday, January 16 - 9:25amSanction this postReply
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Based on Post 0 and not my own listening to the podcast -- I have not listened to it -- Peikoff overstates the value of live discussions and understates the value of online forum discussions.

Having indulged both types over the years, I can tell you that a live discussion can degenerate into the same kinds of problems that an online forum can experience.

Any productive discussion, live or virtual, requires knowledgeable participants committed to common core principles and civil exchange as well as a moderator willing and able to enforce these standards.

One important difference is that having people in immediate physical slapping distance tends to curb (but not eliminate) snarky personal attacks.

Another involves the effort required to participate.  Virtual forums by their nature make it easy for lazy malefactors to poop on the party.  Live forums make it less easy for such poor characters to do so.

Well-managed virtual forums like RoR also give participants more time to "chew" an idea and respond whereas a live forum demands much faster "think on your feet" skills.

The main benefit of live discussions relates more to the emotional need for bonding rather than the mental need for knowing.  There is nothing like that actual physical contact and no amount of virtual contact can substitute for it.  At least, that has been my experience.




Post 23

Wednesday, January 16 - 12:36pmSanction this postReply
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Ed says,

 

Your post and the audio both speak for themselves, and folks will find their tones to be roughly equivalent or not. I did not, and said so (thinking that this perceived disparity had something to do with the hint of animosity that is found in this thread).

 

It’s all subjective, but I think my reality is more benevolent than your reality.

Smiley thinking 023.GIF

 

 




Post 24

Wednesday, January 16 - 4:33pmSanction this postReply
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Denis Hardin hu kutab:

It’s all subjective, but I think my reality is more benevolent than your reality.

Bob Kolker responds:

Benevolence and malevolence are attributes of sentient beings. Do you believe reality (i.e. nature) is a sentient being?

Bob Kolker




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Post 25

Thursday, January 17 - 12:07amSanction this postReply
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Bob asks,

 

Benevolence and malevolence are attributes of sentient beings. Do you believe reality (i.e. nature) is a sentient being?

 

According to the Hegelian philosopher Francis Herbert Bradley (1846-1924) in Appearance and Reality, the Absolute is spirit, and its contents are nothing but sentient experience.  Guess that makes me an Absolute Idealist.  Very clever of you to have noticed.

 

“Humor is the denial of metaphysical importance to that which you laugh at...”

       --Ayn Rand

 

(I was joking around, Bob.)




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Post 26

Thursday, April 24 - 3:23pmSanction this postReply
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I would have to agree with Mr. Selzer in his Post 22.  I see no reason why these potential problems would be inherent only in website communication, but that they would be potentially presented in any form communication.  And not just these potential problems, but any number of others as well.  It is strange to me that Peikoff would bring these points to bear in this context, rather than establish them generally, (and perhaps if his limited little mind ever found the inclination, to take up the task of the development a complete theory for rational communication) and then apply them to website communication.  The only actual "rule" that one needs to interact with others here, as well as anywhere else, is merely to think to the best of one's ability.   
Personally, I am very fond of website interaction because it allows me the necessary time to identify the essentials, correlate them and then to carefully construct exactly what I want to communicate. 
Another point, which I think is really the greatest value of websites such as this, is that it allows communication with other Objectivists and thus allows the satisfaction of their social needs.  With this movement being so small, and its members drowning in the irrationality, ignorance and stupidity of the general society, it offers an oasis where they can function without the horrible burden of having to deal with it.  The Objectivist websites are a like an electronic Galt's Gulches.  And having places like that really helps to keep up moral.     

(Edited by Robert E. Milenberg on 4/24, 3:24pm)




Post 27

Saturday, April 26 - 11:29pmSanction this postReply
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If you are going to mistype Mr. Setzer's name, then by all means call him Mr. Diet Coke.

;-)

Ed
[an inside joke]



Post 28

Saturday, April 26 - 11:36pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

=========
... (and perhaps if his limited little mind ever found the inclination, to take up the task of the development a complete theory for rational communication) ...
=========

Not knowing the size or other limitations of this man's mind -- I requested as much from him by email. I was politely informed by his assistant that my request wasn't going to be looked into.

Ed




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Post 29

Monday, April 28 - 8:57amSanction this postReply
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I saw that mistake in Mr. Setzer's name and tried to correct it.  Somehow I must have pushed the wrong button.  Thus, proving that two wrongs don't make a right.
I've seen Leonard Peikoff in person at Northeastern University twice at lectures sponsored by the Ford Hall Forum.  I would judge the descriptors "limited" and  "little" to be accurate.  Personally, I found him to be the most pretentious mediocrity and biggest hypocrite I've ever seen.  I have explored this website quite a bit and there is little indication of familiarity with him and I've never found any criticism of him.  Given what he is like, I thought any number of the members would be bashing him like a Chinese gong. 
I've never requested any quotations from ARI on the size of Peikoff's mind, although it is an amusing possibility.  If they responded however, I'm sure that they would exaggerate it considerably, as nothing else would be possible.  

Bob




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Post 30

Saturday, May 3 - 2:03pmSanction this postReply
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I usually attend the local ARI freebie public lectures, and they are usually worthwhile, if only to provoke thought on my part.  One interesting and valuable feature of these events is that the Q & A typically lasts about as long as the presentation, and that the speakers are not afraid of hostile or complex questions or objections. 

When the local Libertarian Pary meets, they get a few dozen attendees at best, unless it is a state or national convention.  I think that the same activists are generally running things as ten, twenty or thirty years ago, with few new additions.  The ARI lectures, on the other hand, sometimes have close to a thousand attendees, by my estimate, and include in the audience a high proportion of college-aged people.

I think that a lot of people come in order to challenge objectivism or specific controversial positions taken by ARI, such as support of military actions by the U.S. government.  I suggest that this is a good thing, as I find that very few venues even offer the option for dissent and argumentation. 

Usually, all you hear is the party line of whatever group is in charge, and dissenters are silenced, ignored and in general not taken seriously.  (Try asking LP members what their theory of children's rights is, and what power parents should have over their children, or how original property rights come about...  Watch how quickly they find an excuse to walk away.  Notice that since the founding of the LP, there has been virtually no intellectual advance in terms of libertarian theory or strategy.) 

ARI offers that opportunity and this is one of their chief draws, as the exchanges between Yaron or Leonard and questioners from the audience can be quite entertaining as well as occasionally informative.  One leaves with the sense of having grappled with real and important issues.  And it is this sense of the reality and grounding of convictions that draws people back, again and again, much like good art.

I bring this up in connection with the current thread as an encouragement for dissent and argument at RoR.  However infuriating the posts by "dissenters" or trolls may be, they serve as a refresh routine for our consciously held principles.  They force us to think about WHY a particular post is so obnoxious or stupid, and, in the process refresh the connections and logic of why it is that we hold particular beliefs.

The noise level in this process can be quite high and distracting, as Yaron and Leonard pointed out.  It can also serve as a focusing incentive, forcing us to take the time and expend the energy to cut through the BS and identify the heart of an issue, as that is necessary in order to effectively communicate our positions.  I suggest that this is one of the chief values of a site such as RoR.




Post 31

Saturday, May 3 - 5:46pmSanction this postReply
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A good point..



Post 32

Tuesday, May 6 - 8:20pmSanction this postReply
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>I usually attend the local ARI freebie public lectures...the Q & A typically lasts about as long as the presentation, and..the speakers are not afraid of hostile or complex questions or objections. [They] sometimes have close to a thousand attendees, by my estimate, and include in the audience a high proportion of college-aged people. [Many] come in order to challenge objectivism or specific controversial positions taken by ARI, such as support of military actions...very few venues even offer the option for dissent and argumentation. [Phil Osborn]

Phil, thanks:

This is very encouraging.

The right way to make Objectivist ideas relevant and lively: Open them up to argument and debate in a lively Q&A.

Those who actually grasp the philosophy have little to fear from this, as there are no unanswerable questions, and Objectivism always offers a fresh and provocative point of view.

(I only hope they are not making major, embarrassing, context-dropping mistakes of *application* -- such as advocating nuking Tehran without context or awareness of minor details, like the fact that the Iranian people, groaning under despised fundamentalist nuts, are in fact our allies.)



Post 33

Tuesday, May 6 - 8:23pmSanction this postReply
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. . . On another note, I haven't yet had a chance to read Mr. Spritzer's insights on the virtues, so I can't yet comment on their validity.



Post 34

Wednesday, May 7 - 7:34pmSanction this postReply
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. . . also, I haven't noticed if Mr. Stickler has included flowcharts. They are mandatory . . .



Post 35

Thursday, May 8 - 12:15amSanction this postReply
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Hey Phil, after all this time, what's the point?

Regards,
--
Jeff



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