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Post 20

Saturday, March 22 - 1:15pmSanction this postReply
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M.E.M writes:


You cite female genital mutilation as an attribute of Islam. It is not. It is part of many cultures, most of them located in a broad geographic band. I don't think you will find it in the Qu'ran. However, you will find male circumcision among Jews and Christians and Muslims -- and we Objectivists do not attack life-hating, self-hating Jews for their culture which includes infant male mutilation and infant sacrifice.


I reply:

Infant sacrifice is strongly forbidden in Judaism. That is one of the larger forbiddings.


Bob Kolker




Post 21

Saturday, March 22 - 1:59pmSanction this postReply
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Teresa, confidence levels are determined by how accurate your predictions need to be -- in order to benefit from research.

For instance, if you're an architect or a putting up a building you might need beams or rafters (planks of wood of "similar" length). If you put wood through a wood cutter, then you want to use a wood cutter that cuts the wood into planks of similar lengths -- let's say, for illustration, 10-foot planks.

Builders need to be confident that all of their planks are about 10-feet long, but not necessarily EXACTLY 10-feet long. Planks that are 9.99 feet long -- and planks that are 10.01 feet long -- would be close enough for builders to use beneficially in building a house. All that a builder would need is to pick a wood-cutting machine that cuts wood so well that it allows her to be 99% confident that it would consistently cut planks that are between 9.999 and 10.001 feet long.

If you are 99% confident that all the cut wood would be between 9.999 and 10.001 feet long -- then you can be approximately 100% confident that all the cut wood would be between 9.99 and 10.01 feet long (which is all that you need to build houses effectively). Wood cutters that are that accurate would always lead to successful house building.

Focusing now on the results of the Muslim survey, we can ask the same kind of a question: how precise do we need to be in order for our results to matter to us in the real world? One good answer would be that, if we could be 99% sure that the true rate of Muslim answers was within 10% of the surveyed results, then we could make decisions about where Muslims fit in in our lives here on Earth.

For instance, if results of a survey indicated that we can be 99% sure that 80-100% of Muslims will fight to the death for sharia law (because 90% answered that way, and we asked enough Muslims to make us 99% sure that all Muslims would answer to within 10% of surveyed results) -- then it would likely be time to "go-nuclear" on those populations heavily infiltrated with aspiring Muslims.

Of course, this is all only hypothetical illustration, however.

Ed





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Post 22

Saturday, March 22 - 2:09pmSanction this postReply
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An easier example is flipping a coin in order to determine whether it's a fair coin, or a double-headed coin.

If you flip the coin once, and it comes up heads -- then you really can't tell whether it's 2-headed or fair.

If you flip the coin 10 times, and all times are heads -- then you can be say, 10-20% sure, that it's a double-headed coin (and not a fair one).

If you flip the coin 100 times, and all times are heads -- then you can be say, 80-90% sure, that it's double-headed.

If you flip the coin 1000 times, and all times are heads -- then you can be say, 95% sure, that it's double-headed.

If you flip the sucker 10,000 times, and all times are heads -- then you can be about 99% sure that it's double-headed.

The number of times you'd have to flip the coin is DICTATED by how certain you want to be about what the results imply (i.e., by the confidence level that you're comfortable with, in order to reliably benefit from generalizing the results of the investigation).

Ed



Post 23

Saturday, March 22 - 5:20pmSanction this postReply
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Teresa, you quoted the article ...

=========
... what's more important to them is that we admire and respect them. Muslims give us a long list of things they admire about the West, yet when asked what we can do to improve things, they want us to respect them and stop looking down on them.
=========

Well ... here is what I am willing to promise:

I promise not to treat Muslims -- or their faith in their 1400-year old belief system -- in an unjustly cruel manner.

;-)

Ed



Post 24

Saturday, March 22 - 6:45pmSanction this postReply
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(Why is RoR giving me so much trouble at night? Damnit! I'm trying to sanction post #22!)

Ed,

Post #22 was perfectly explained. I get it, and thanks!




Post 25

Saturday, March 22 - 7:15pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks for the kudos, Teresa.

:-)

Ed



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Post 26

Saturday, March 22 - 11:10pmSanction this postReply
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The subtle point here is to pick your battles. The goal -- of living the life you want in the world you want -- is the same. The means and methods to this same goal will be different for people (or Objectivists even) in relation to their own personal attributes and powers. Some will fight evil harder. Some will fight evil differently.
Stipulated.
I agree that there are better ways folks can use to get the life they want in the world they want.
Agree to that.
Teaching is the best way to fight evil. It's an appeal to the human mind as the answer to life's problems.
In accord on that.
There is also the sense of life issue or the underlying current of coming alive. There's a good quote that says don't ask what the world needs, ask what makes you come alive -- because what the world needs is folks who come alive.
Thanks for the lesson.
MEM: The dangers of bad government and malevolent religionists are not one-tenth of what we do to ourselves
Ed: True
We agree again.
The trick is to balance my energies between an appropriate level of destruction and creation, what Schumpeter called "Creative Destruction." In order to lay a new foundation, sometimes existing things need first be destroyed. I would say that an appropriate balance for one of my caliber of talent would be to apportion approximately 60% of my skills toward destruction (to "make room" for the good) and about 40% of my skills toward creation.
You may apportion your skills differently based on your attributes, but don't pretentiously presume to sit there and sell me on some kind of a Utopian fantasy that there should be 0.0% destruction going on in the world.

Clear a forest, build a farm.  A building can outlive its usefulness.  Machines wear out past the point of repair.  What I seek to avoid is mindless destruction of anything threatening on the premise that perceived threats are bad by definition.  Widgets, Inc. will be threatened by the invention of the Gizmo.  Should they bomb the gizmo factory?  I know that you would object to that and I know why and we agree on that.  When the Taliban ruled Afghanistan, they destroyed statues of Buddha.  The statues were works of art that harmed no one... except, of course, that by their existence, they threatened Islam.  Before 9/11, the worst terrorist attack against the United States government was carried out by an member of the Michigan Militia.  It is one thing to withdraw your sanction... to live in the woods, etc.... and another entirely to destroy an office building in use.  (Or even out of use.  What if the bomb had gone off at midnight and killed no one?  The act would still be barbaric.) 

I am not a big fan of destruction.  It needs to be justified on economic grounds.  Jane Jacobs pointed out in The Economy of Cities that old forms continue.  They change.  They are incorporated into new things.  They seldom disappear entirely.  That is the nature of things, to remain useful for those who find use in them.  I agree than 0.0% destruction is un-real, im-possible.  I just ate an apple while writing this.  My goal however, was not to destroy the apple, but to facilitate the uptake of 1.5 grams of vitamin C.
Also, religion isn't merely some abstract castle-in-the-sky, untied to any living, breathing, feeling humans -- such a castle could be destroyed without harming the humans tied to it by their deeply emotional apron-strings. A wrecking-ball of reason will necessarily "hurt the feelings" of others (as it destroys the counterfeit sources of value that many folks hold dear).
Your theme seems to be to go along to get along, after all, there's so much tied-up wealth owned by religionists -- you'd be a fool not to pander to them in trade. At the end of the day, you say, you'll be richer for having looked the other way -- and under your view, the richer guy is the winner (no matter how he earned his wealth).

Ed, as a nurse, would you refuse to treat a Muslim or a Christian or a post-modernist professor of philosophy?  Before you buy from a store, do you subject the owner to a pop quiz on Atlas Shrugged

If a religionist or a statist attempts to impose their beliefs on me by force, then, of course, I resist -- and if need be take the problem directly to them.  That said, I work with another guard who is a Baptist minister.  He knows that I am a heathen. When I go down to the service level to secure the dock, I know that he has me on camera.  If ever anything goes wrong, I know that I can count on him to do whatever he can to assure my safety, just as I have his "six" when he is down there.  We work together toward a common goal, independent of our personal beliefs.  Our client is a heavily regulated banking conglomerate that profits from state intervention.  As long as we get paid, all of that is another issue entirely.  I just submitted a resume to a state-funded university hospital.  Should I denounce them with picket instead?  Objectivism is a personal philosophy that enables individual happiness, my happiness. If anyone cares to know what I think, I tell them.  Mostly, I am content to live my own life by my own standards.
I politely disagree. Faith and force are corollaries and feed off of each other. If you benefit one, then you forward the principles of the other. It's a matter of feeding crocodiles, with the false hope that that will make you the last one to be eaten.
You must then limit yourself to doing business only with Objectivists, with approved Objectivists at that.... no factly-valued confused libertarian huggers or perhaps no intellectually heirloomed preservers of the original manuscripts or whoever... Today, it seems, you can do business with TSI, but you and I are drifting apart ...  Who are you going to trade with if you refuse to "sanction" anyone who does not agree with you?  Since 1957, there have been innumerable "Galt's Gulch" attempts and none succeeded.  There is a lesson in that: it does not work for a reason.




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Post 27

Saturday, March 22 - 11:36pmSanction this postReply
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Female genital mutilation is common in Muslim countries, and Islam has been used ... 

I am not defending the practice.  I only point out that they are far away and you do not speak their language, so you cannot tell them your views.  On the other hand, right here in the USA Christians and Jews (and Muslims) circumcise male babies.  You could do something about that.  When I say that "we Objectivists" ignore that, the generalization is valid.  I have been to Libertarian Party meetings where someone sets up a table against this. I have seen activists at our local street fairs here in Ann Arbor agitating against the practice and giving out brochures about restorative surgery.   I have never seen any of this associated with Objectivism or Objectivists. 
The mistreatment of women is the real issue at hand.
 Yeah... On the first day of a class in social psychology, one of the women said that she thought that it was horrible that a woman cannot be safe on the streets after dark.  And the professor replied that it was worse when a woman cannot  be safe in her own home.  So, there's that.  The issue exists here and now and you can do something about it because these are your neighbors and you speak their language.  The inverse square law is real.

However, every time I see the bumper sticker that says There is no excuse for violence againt women I want to ask: Is there an excuse for violence against men?  The "mistreatment of women" (so-called) is only half the problem, is it not?  I think that we have not explored the large number of men who woke up dead with the "grieving" widow so puzzled as to why God took her husband.  This is a complicated issue and a universal problem.  Women get beaten up in suburban homes, Ed.  But it is only half the problem, though, admittedly, perhaps the easier half to deal with.

We demonize Muslims and Islam for the political advantage of some people here in the USA. 

The wider, broader and deeper problems -- the ones we need to address because we can win them -- are philosophical... and closer to home.

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 3/22, 11:41pm)




Post 28

Sunday, March 23 - 2:40amSanction this postReply
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Mike,

Thanks for the well-thought-out and well-spoken replies.

Ed



Post 29

Sunday, March 23 - 9:33pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Robert J. "Bob" Kolker claims: "Infant sacrifice is strongly forbidden in Judaism. That is one of the larger forbiddings"

INFANT SACRIFICE AMONG THE SEMITIC PEOPLES

The Binding of Isaac, in Genesis 22, is a story from the Hebrew Bible in which God asks Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac on Mount Moriah. In Islam, Muslims believe that the Qur'an teaches that God's command to Abraham was to sacrifice his older son Ishmael rather than Isaac. The event is remembered on the 1st of Tishrei in the Jewish calendar and from the 10th - 13th of Dhu al-Hijjah in the Muslim calendar: on Eid ul-Adha.

The narration is referred to as the Akedah (עקדה) or Akedat Yitzchak (עקידת יצחק) in Hebrew and as the Dhabih (ذبح) in Arabic. The sacrifice itself is called an Olah in Hebrew — for the significance of sacrifices, especially in Biblical times, see the korbanot.

According to the narration, Abraham sets out to obey God's command without questioning. Some believe that God wishes to test Abraham, which indicates that he does not intend Abraham to actually sacrifice his son. Indeed, after Isaac is bound to an altar, the angel of the Lord stops Abraham at the last minute, at which point Abraham discovers a ram caught in some nearby bushes. Abraham then sacrifices the ram in Isaac's stead.

While it is often imagined that Isaac was a young boy at the time of the incident, this is mostly a modern idea, with most traditional sources claiming he was an adult. According to Josephus, Isaac is twenty-five years old at the time of the sacrifice; the Talmudic sages teach that Isaac is thirty-seven, likely based on the fact that the next Biblical story is of Sarah's death at 127 (she was ninety when Isaac was born). In either case, Isaac is a fully grown man, strong enough to prevent the elderly Abraham from tying him up had he wanted to resist.

Genesis 22:14 states that it occurred at "the mount of the LORD": in 2 Chronicles 3:1; Psalm 24:3; Isaiah 2:3; 30:29; and Zechariah 8:3, the Bible seems to identify the location of this event as the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.
-- Wikipedia -- "Binding of Isaac"

Ah... but in the Christian  Middle Ages, the rabbis decided that God was only "testing" Abraham, like a skit from Saturday Night Live....  Tommy Flanagan: "Yeah, that's the ticket.... I was only testing him..." or another Lovitz character, Master Thespian:  "Abraham!  This is God.  I want you to kill Isaac..." (What?)  "Acting!!!  Haha!!!"  Nice god you got there... and I thought Zeus was problematic...

Nowadays, Jews, Christians and Muslims do not actually kill their sons, they just partially emasculate them as a ritual...  Instead  of "Islam Update" we should have an "Abrahamic Watch."

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 3/23, 9:34pm)




Post 30

Monday, March 24 - 9:29amSanction this postReply
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Here is an article by Walter Williams on why a minority that supports terrorism is more than enough - and 7% is high - to be very dangerous:

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=5134

I do agree though that the more trade and openness there is, the faster Islam will integrate - in fact that is essentially what this is about - the more insulated, patriarchal fundamentalists don't want the openness of the west they fear it.




Post 31

Monday, March 24 - 9:37amSanction this postReply
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MEM - Actually there is a gathering movement to stop circumcision - I disagree with the practice myself completely.  In fact I think Penn & Teller did a whole episode of Bullshit! on it. 



Post 32

Monday, March 24 - 12:45pmSanction this postReply
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M.E.M. writes
Nowadays, Jews, Christians and Muslims do not actually kill their sons, they just partially emasculate them as a ritual... Instead of "Islam Update" we should have an "Abrahamic Watch."

I reply:

Check out the size of Orthodox Jewish families. Some partial emasculation! Circumcision does not emasculate or sexually disable anyone. It is a good preventive for cancer of the glans penis though. It also saves the male from the dread and horror of smegma, the curse of the uncircumsized.

By the way, the practice will not be stopped in the U.S. Read the First Amendment.

Bob Kolker





Post 33

Monday, March 24 - 1:42pmSanction this postReply
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Not legally stop, but to educate people that it is not needed for "medical" reasons.



Post 34

Monday, March 24 - 2:25pmSanction this postReply
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Not needed, but desirable. Circumsised dicks are healthier dicks. Lower occurrence of cancers of the glans penis. And one avoids the curse of smegma.

Bob Kolker




Post 35

Monday, March 24 - 4:33pmSanction this postReply
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Dr. Dean Edell, who has a syndicated radio talk show in which he dispenses medical advice, is unalterably opposed to circumcision. He says that the arguments that it is necessary for health reasons are bogus. Besides, it desensitizes the penis, and makes sex less pleasurable. That alone should be enough to prohibit its practice, which is quite literally one of genital mutilation.

- Bill



Post 36

Tuesday, March 25 - 9:46amSanction this postReply
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The trick is to balance my energies between an appropriate level of destruction and creation, what Schumpeter called "Creative Destruction." In order to lay a new foundation, sometimes existing things need first be destroyed. I would say that an appropriate balance for one of my caliber of talent would be to apportion approximately 60% of my skills toward destruction (to "make room" for the good) and about 40% of my skills toward creation.
Emphasis mine.

I believe that "Creative Destruction" involves the destruction of old industries and products via the invention of new ones (the old ones are made obsolete). In other words, the creation precedes the destruction and not vice versa as your quote indicated. Just a minor detail...

Also Ed, I once asked your opinion privately on male circumcision, and you stated that you had no opinion either way. Is that correct? Have you changed your mind?

Michael:

Killing them is not going to do the trick
So true... You cannot kill all of them, no matter how hard the Bobs would try...

Teresa:

Don't try to understand, Jon.  I simply misread Ed's post.
Just double checking...
Aside from that, I don't believe your stats either.
Fair enough, although they are not really my stats.




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Post 37

Tuesday, March 25 - 7:25pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Robert J. Kolker claimed that infant male genital mutilation will always be legal in the United States: "By the way, the practice will not be stopped in the U.S. Read the First Amendment."



You do not understand the First Amendment.  Read Reynolds v. The United States  98 U.S. 145 (1878) -- which, as you can see has stood for over 125 years, even in the face of a new challenge, which it survived.
 
A Recent Utah Case Asks: Is a Prohibition on Polygamy Constitutional?
By MARCI HAMILTON
Over a century later, in 1990, the Court reaffirmed the very same principle. In Employment Division v. Smith, it held that an individual's claim that religious belief compelled him to use peyote, did not prevent the state from denying him unemployment benefits on the ground that he had engaged in illegal drug use, just as it would any other drug law violator.
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/hamilton/20040212.html




You have the right to believe whatever you want.  You have no "religious right" (so-called) to act however you want.
... and thank God that you don't. 
The court argued that if we allowed polygamy, how long before someone argued that human sacrifice was a necessary part of their religion, and "to permit this would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land, and in effect to permit every citizen to become a law unto himself."

Now, myself, as an anarchist, I might say what if you want to emasculate your infant sons, that's their tough luck.  However, from the viewpoint of strict Objectivism which supports the compelling interest of a constitutional government in the rights of its citizens, I would have to admit that the goverment has a contractual obligation to protect your sons from having the heads of their penises severed for your own perculiar (so-called) "religious" beliefs based on an alleged "commandment" from a supposed "God" whose existence you cannot prove.

(And you Muslims wonder why rational people mock you.  Oh, sorry, you are not a Muslim; you are a "Jew" -- it's so easy to confuse them...  And lest we forget, you Juslims have a tradition of human sacrifice.  So we need to be watchful ... )

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 3/25, 7:42pm)




Post 38

Tuesday, March 25 - 8:33pmSanction this postReply
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Regarding God's reported demand for the sacrifice of a son....

I recently heard a rabbi discuss this very issue on NPR or the BBC, forget which.  The gist of the program, however, was to allow leaders of various faiths to make the best possible case for their religion to a supposedly unbiased curious agnostic.

The rabbi's explanation for this was that people were sacrificing children right and left, allegedly at God's requests.  God, however, specifically asked for this sacrifice and then, just as the knife was descending or some such dramatic moment, cancelled it and told the father to sacrifice a goat or some other animal, and to do so from then on.  The point was to BAN sacrifice of human beings, although somehow that point got lost in all the Sunday School Bible study that I was subjected to.




Post 39

Tuesday, March 25 - 11:04pmSanction this postReply
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Jonathan,

Thanks for pointing out how the existence of the good precedes the recession of the existing bad. Regarding circumcision, I am still on the fence.

Ed



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