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Post 20

Thursday, March 27 - 11:10amSanction this postReply
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Doug,

You're not hijacking this thread. In fact, I tend to agree with what it is that you have had to say about the Latter-Day Saints. We have one of our own right here on RoR, or at least one who used to practice that faith. I forget his name at the moment -- and a cursory glance at RoR's last 99 posts failed to produce a recognizable name recall -- but the fellow hails from Hawaii and is really very good at thinking straight (if that's not too presumptuous for me to be saying). If anyone can help out with his name, I recall one more telling thing about this contributor: He felt that Atlas Shrugged was written poorly (as a novel).

Ed



Post 21

Thursday, March 27 - 12:49pmSanction this postReply
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 Ed,

It would help me if you investigated respectability in terms of some aspect of religion.
But I still think that the "attack" on ideas is good.
See, here you mean attack how coherent, corresponsive, or useful an idea is? That is, you ask whether this or that religion is respectable in terms of coherence, correspondence, or use. That makes a lot of sense to me. Simiarly....
. . . .for instance, is that it literally calls for my eventual destruction (as an infidel) . .
This seems to ask wether religion is respectable in terms of its eventual effect on you personally. Which also makes plenty of sense to me but differs considerably from the aforementioned inquiry.

There are just so many ways to evaluate a religion to see whether it's worthy of respect. May I suggest looking at religions, as best we can, through benevolent eyes? It serves us well, I think, to recognize the positive aspects of religions. Rand did as much, more or less, when she described religion as a rather innocdent and early form of philosophy:
PLAYBOY: Has no religion, in your estimation, ever offered anything of constructive value to human life?

RAND: Qua religion, no—in the sense of blind belief, belief unsupported by, or contrary to, the facts of reality and the conclusions of reason. Faith, as such, is extremely detrimental to human life: it is the negation of reason. But you must remember that religion is an early form of philosophy, that the first attempts to explain the universe, to give a coherent frame of reference to man's life and a code of moral values, were made by religion, before men graduated or developed enough to have philosophy. And, as philosophies, some religions have very valuable moral points. They may have a good influence or proper principles to inculcate, but in a very contradictory context and, on a very—how should I say it?—dangerous or malevolent base: on the ground of faith.

Playboy's Interview with Ayn Rand  (March 1964)

Jordan

(Edited by Jordan on 3/27, 9:37pm)




Post 22

Thursday, March 27 - 2:21pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

Thanks for the response. However, my original purpose for this thread was to do just those things to which you are now trying to draw my attention. Have I strayed from this that much already??

:-)

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/27, 2:22pm)




Post 23

Thursday, March 27 - 5:42pmSanction this postReply
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Critical evaluation, part 1

I retrieved the following at Wikipedia regarding the 4 Noble Truths of Buddhism ...

Four Noble Truths
  1. The Nature of Suffering (Dukkha):
    "Now this ... is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering."[6]

  2. Suffering's Origin (Samudaya):
    "Now this ... is the noble truth of the origin of suffering: it is this craving which leads to renewed existence, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there, that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for existence, craving for extermination."[6]

  3. Suffering's Cessation (Nirodha):
    "Now this ... is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering: it is the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up and relinquishing of it, freedom from it, nonreliance on it."[6]

  4. The Way (Marga) Leading to the Cessation of Suffering:
    "Now this ... is the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering: it is the Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration."[9][10]
What this finding reveals:
Buddhism is primarily about the avoidance of suffering -- rather than truly living happily (which is not even primarily dependent on the avoidance of suffering).

What this means for the 7 potentially-respectable religions:
Because Buddhism, which is a wrong-headed worldview (see above), is a large, if not a majority, part of "Chinese Folk Religion" -- which I first and incorrectly referred to as Chinese Universalism -- it has been hereby discovered imperative that Chinese Folk Religion be "committed to the flames as [wrong] and [harmful to mankind]." It is not, in the strict sense, a respectable religion.

That leaves the following 6 potentially-respectable religions for future evaluation:

Baha`i
Confuscianism
Jainism
Sikhism
Taoism
Zoroastrianism


Ed


(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/27, 6:57pm)




Post 24

Thursday, March 27 - 9:46pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

You're just not evaluating these religions in terms of anything. I'm still not sure what you're looking for. Are you looking for good ideas that religions have popped out?

Jordan




Post 25

Thursday, March 27 - 11:11pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

=========
You're just not evaluating these religions IN TERMS OF anything.
=========

In post 23, I evaluated Buddhism in terms of human happiness. You may have missed that part. I've already completed work elaborating on this kind of a thing and how it can be used in order to judge someone's philosophy. My completed work can be found at the following url:

Human Happiness essay

If, after discovering how I show that only certain forms of thought and action can ever lead to human happiness, you still have questions -- then I would be happy to carry out this debate. However, should you not be interested in even the possibility of objective human happiness -- then I'll assume this discussion was over before it started (which is not my highest hope).

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/28, 2:03pm)




Post 26

Friday, March 28 - 11:18amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

If a happiness quotient is your criterion for whether a religion is worthy of your respect, then okay. That's a weird criterion to me; just because something effectuates happiness, doesn't make it respectable.

And I think you're wrong that Buddhists don't "truly live happily." (Aside, that "truly" bit makes me wonder if our discussion is about to meet a certain "no true Scotsman." ;)) Sure, you can say they have a wrong-headed view, but studies have shown that Buddhists are pretty damn happy.

Jordan



Post 27

Friday, March 28 - 2:31pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan, thanks for the continued debate.
... just because something effectuates happiness, doesn't make it respectable.
There's a gap between our understandings here -- because I take things that make folks happy to be the most respectable things that exist. Curious: did you have the time, energy, and inclination to read my essay on human happiness (now hyperlinked above)?

... studies have shown that Buddhists are pretty damn happy.
According to Affect Valuation Theory (Tsai, 2007), there are some folks who ideally want to feel "low arousal positive states" (rather than "high arousal positive states"). Meditation calms them down and quiets their minds. They'll show up as less stressed and in more of a psychological "comfort zone" when tested while practicing this aspect of Buddhism -- but don't confuse that research finding with happiness of the human variety.

Differing temperaments dictate everyone's ideal arousal levels. For animals, that's all they need in order to be "happy." Human happiness requires more than this (see my linked essay above).


Reference:
Tsai JL, Miao FF, Seppala E. Good feelings in christianity and buddhism: religious differences in ideal affect. Pers Soc Psychol Bull. 2007 Mar;33(3):409-21





Post 28

Friday, March 28 - 4:57pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Ed,
because I take things that make folks happy to be the most respectable things that exist.
Oh.
Curious: did you have the time, energy, and inclination to read my essay on human happiness (now hyperlinked above)?
No. Severe time constraints + general fatigue = no hyperlinking. Would you share the highlights?
They'll show up as less stressed and in more of a psychological "comfort zone" when tested while practicing this aspect of Buddhism -- but don't confuse that research finding with happiness of the human variety.
The Scotsman draws nearer!  I think many Buddhists, because of their Buddhism, are are genuinely happy, not merely less stressed. 

Jordan




Post 29

Friday, March 28 - 7:28pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan, I can tell that you are barely able to hold your breath much longer, so I am going to just come out with it and kill the anticipation:

"No true Scotsman thinks that any Buddhists are genuinely happy."

There. I said it. You can stop holding your breath now.

;-)

I'll summarize the essay soon ...

Ed



Post 30

Friday, March 28 - 7:47pmSanction this postReply
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Human Happiness (highlights)

--there are 2 happiness’s: psychological happiness (elation and/or satisfaction of momentary desire) and philosophical happiness (whole human lives, well lived)

--animals can, and therefore, should attain psychological happiness

--humans can, and therefore, should attain philosophical happiness

--no pill could ever “make” a human happy

--humans have at least a dozen fundamental (read: necessary or “natural”) needs which must be met in order for any human to be humanly happy


Ed



Post 31

Friday, March 28 - 10:01pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks for the highlights, Ed. I don't accept your happiness dualism -- or your version of respect -- but let's not worry about that right now. If you want to evaluate religions based on which ones yield "philosophical happiness," then so be it. I guess the question is: Do you think those religions you listed do not yield "whole human lives" or "lives well lived"?

Jordan



Post 32

Friday, March 28 - 11:20pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

=========
Do you think those religions you listed do not yield "whole human lives" or "lives well lived"?
=========

That's what I'm in the very process of determining (it's the theme of this ongoing thread) -- via my investigative and reflective powers of awareness (awareness of what things there are that exist out there in reality, and of how these existing things relate and interrelate).

Ed



Post 33

Saturday, March 29 - 11:21amSanction this postReply
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What does it take to have a whole or well lived life? Closest to home, I know lots of Jews and even a handful of Christians whose lives seem well-lived and whole. Still, I'm not sure if their religion is the reason for that.

Jordan



Post 34

Saturday, March 29 - 12:52pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

Much of the answers to your questions are available in my essay on human happiness. I will continue to answer you here, but when you get the time and energy -- I couldn't recommend it enough that you read the essay. Most humans – while able to experience elation and the satisfaction of momentary desires – don’t yet know how to really become happy. This is because of a common deficiency in objective philosophy. Everyone has a philosophy, just not the right one yet.

Your latest question is a dual-question about:

(1) what it takes to live a whole life

(2) what it takes for a human to live well

The life-solution to the first problem is to spend time enjoying and personally-growing – because life is growth – in the 7 major life-stages: newborn infant, toddler, child, adolescent (teenager), young adult, middle-aged adult, and elderly adult.

The solution to the second problem is to acquire viable values (via moral virtues) and to capitalize on good fortune.

Ed


See:
http://radicalacademy.com/adlersymposium1.htm



Post 35

Sunday, March 30 - 8:20amSanction this postReply
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Ed (To Posts 16 and 19): I fully agree with what you say and thanks for requesting my opinion. I am also convinced that bad ideas must be attacked, in spite of then running the risk of suffering a personal physical assault, as it happens with the Danish Mohammed cartoonists. The least that will happen is a totally furious reply as has just happened with Claude Shannon's reply on Post 25 of "Religion is Totalitarian" [http://rebirthofreason.com/Forum/GeneralForum/1185_1.shtml#23] to my comment on Post 22 of the mentioned thread. Objectivism and Objectivists cannot expect any better from people that lack arguments as soon as they're out of their depths, and they immediately are, for they belong to that part of the human population that the Arab Abu'l-`Ala' al-Ma`arri (973 - 1057) classified as follows: "The inhabitants of the earth are of two sorts: Those with brains, but no religion,
and those with religion, but no brains."

 

Such attacks, which are typical to all religions (as well as to many political movements, such as, for example, the Nazis and the Communists) characterize their intellectual inferiority, since they evidence their lack of any convincing arguments by resorting to violence. Further on, both the threat and the carrying out of violence to shut dissenting voices continuously blocks both the advance of new ideas and what I would call the progress of progress itself.

 

As history shows, it is this that has prevented mankind's advancement towards a general well-being for the general population, and only favored the commanding coterie involved. Moreover, this delay, which also involves scientific evolution, can easily mean the destruction of the whole planet (incoming asteroids and such). I took up this subject in my book "Ayn Rand, I and the Universe", which was published by "Rebirth of Reason", for which I will always be grateful. Charles Freeman clearly analyzed Christianity's obstruction to science and general progress in his book ""The Closing of the Western Mind". As I mention in my reply to Claude Shannon (Post 28 of "Religion is Totalitarian" - http://rebirthofreason.com/Forum/GeneralForum/1185_1.shtml#23) Objectivism presents a totally different option to the world.

 

Thus, overcoming this habit of throwing threats and using violence to obtain one's aims will be, as I see it, the final confrontation with the up to now existing root of human societies (See http://rebirthofreason.com/Articles/Schieder/Ayn_Rand_and_Rational_Egoism_The_dynamo_of_human_progress.shtml). Evidently, defending what is right can, unfortunately, be very costly in every sense.





Post 36

Sunday, March 30 - 12:51pmSanction this postReply
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So hopping down the rabbit hole a bit more, it seems you're looking for religions that yield people who spend time enjoying and personally growing, as well as to get viable values. Again, I'd say most religious people I know do just fine in this regard, which is not to say they do so by virtue of their religion.

Given time, I'll read your essay.

Jordan





Post 37

Thursday, April 3 - 5:15amSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

... it seems you're looking for religions that yield people who spend time enjoying and personally growing, as well as to get viable values.
Yup. But beware, it is easier to write about what it is that folks need -- than it is to actually discharge these real-life obligations all along one's life-journey. A. Maslow -- who studied happy folks for 30 years -- called those folks discharging these obligations "self-actualized" and estimated their prevalence in the human population to be 2%.

That would mean that 98% of the human beings currently in existence aren't becoming happy (because, primarily, of a deficiency in philosophy).


Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 4/03, 5:18am)




Post 38

Thursday, April 3 - 4:28pmSanction this postReply
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Setting aside Maslow's lack of credibility, if 99% of the population he observed were religious (which they probably were), and of that population, 2% were happy, the odds are against us that that 2% is filled mostly with nonreligious people.

Jordan



Post 39

Thursday, April 3 - 5:12pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

Most of the "self-actualized" (SAs) 2% that Maslow found weren't conventionally religious.

The self-actualizers also had a different way of relating to others.  First, they enjoyed solitude, and were comfortable being alone.    And they enjoyed deeper personal relations with a few close friends and family members, rather than more shallow relationships with many people.

They enjoyed autonomy, a relative independence from physical and social needs.  And they resisted enculturation, that is, they were not susceptible to social pressure to be "well adjusted" or to "fit in" -- they were, in fact, nonconformists in the best sense.

They had an unhostile sense of humor -- preferring to joke at their own expense, or at the human condition, and never directing their humor at others.  They had a quality he called acceptance of self and others, by which he meant that these people would be more likely to take you as you are than try to change you into what they thought you should be.  This same acceptance applied to their attitudes towards themselves:  If some quality of theirs wasn’t harmful, they let it be, even enjoying it as a personal quirk. 

On the other hand, they were often strongly motivated to change negative qualities in themselves that could be changed.  Along with this comes spontaneity and simplicity:  They preferred being themselves rather than being pretentious or artificial.  In fact, for all their nonconformity, he found that they tended to be conventional on the surface, just where less self-actualizing nonconformists tend to be the most dramatic.

Further, they had a sense of humility and respect towards others -- something Maslow also called democratic values -- meaning that they were open to ethnic and individual variety, even treasuring it.  They had a quality Maslow called human kinship or Gemeinschaftsgefühl -- social interest, compassion, humanity.  And this was accompanied by a strong ethics, which was spiritual but seldom conventionally religious in nature.
--http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/maslow.html

... and from: http://psych.eiu.edu/spencer/Maslow.html ...
List of 12 Characteristics shared by people who are self-actualized. Note: not all self-actualized persons show all these characteristics.

1. Perceive reality accurately. Not defensive in their perceptions of the world
2. An acceptance of themselves, others, and nature. The AA Serenity prayer. Acceptance not same as happiness.
3. Spontaneity, simplicity, & naturalness. Do not live programmed lives.
4. Problem-centered. Possibly the most important characteristic. SAs have a sense of mission to which they dedicate their lives. Einstein once said "the man who regards his life as meaningless is not merely unhappy, but hardly fit for life".
5. Like privacy & detachment. Enjoy being alone; can reflect on events.
6. Freshness of appreciation. Don't take life for granted.
7. Mystic or peak experiences. A peak experience is a moment of intense ecstasy, similar to a religious or mystical experience, during which the self is transcended. More currently, Mihaly Csikzentmihalyi developed the term "flow experience" to describe times when people become so totally involved in what they are doing that they forget all sense of time and awareness of self.
8. Social Interest. Similar to Adler.
9. Profound interpersonal relationships. SAs tend to attract admirers or disciples.  

10. Democratic character structure. SAs display little racial, religious, or social prejudice.
  
11. Creative. Especially in managing their lives.
12. Resistance to Enculturation - SAs are autonomous, independent and self-sufficient.




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