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Post 0

Friday, June 27 - 4:39pmSanction this postReply
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In the "Right to Keep and Bear Arms" thread, I asked about the first government (monarchy, aristocracy, or democracy). Ted and the Rev'rend each had some ideas. I'm trying to track down the earliest sufficient evidence for a government on Earth, not just a city.

I realize that a "city" is properly something that is governed, but that's rational, not empirical, evidence of government. I want the kind of evidence that even vulgar empiricists have got to admit to. I'm thinking it might come down to some incontrovertable evidence of some Sumerian king back "in the day."

Any thoughts?

:-)

Ed




Post 1

Friday, June 27 - 4:56pmSanction this postReply
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So far, the best I could do is to find the incontrovertible evidence of the Egyptian Pharaoh, Narmer, dated to about 5100 or 5200 years ago.

Can anybody out there beat that?

Ed
**edited to correct the date given

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 6/28, 3:01pm)




Post 2

Friday, June 27 - 5:31pmSanction this postReply
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Mother Goose Tales

You'll have to define what you mean by government. The Natufian settlement at Jericho was too large for the clan structures of more primitive societies to handle disputes on a mere family basis. But writing and coinage were millennia in the future. On the other hand, Celtic and Germanic tribes, often with no power structure other than that of clans, had "kings" as battle leaders and religious figureheads. Early civilizations were concerned with survival, not leaving behind unambiguous evidence for historians, a profession which did not exist until the time of Herodotus.

One could use the presence of weapons not meant for hunting as a proof of the existence of government. But barbed arrowheads (often called war arrows - they are barbed to prevent a victim from using his hands to removed the head, as opposed to hunting arrows, which are unbarbed for ease of extraction by the hunter) exist among Siberian and Amerind tribes. Swords and chariots make very late appearances, long after the existence of city states.

You are demanding an answer for a question which is an open matter of dispute. The only consensus view is that the existence of cities - civitates - shows the presence of civilization. With long term settlement comes the existence of real estate, inheritance, public works and the need for arbitration by an administration larger than a family structure.

The earliest governments may have been cadres of women who passed down ownership of the land from mother to daughter, with men kept in control by the ideology of the Goddess religion and the judicious use of poison - witchery as we Indo-Europeans would say. I would suggest reading James Frazer on the Rex Nemorensis Robert Graves' White Goddess and the various works of Marija Gimbutas.

If I might make my own demand, can someone please explain why gravitic mass and inertial mass are apparently equal?



Post 3

Friday, June 27 - 5:53pmSanction this postReply
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Another tack is comparative etymology. Proto-Indo-European has a root *reg- from which come the Latin rex, German Reich and Hindu raj all referring to kingship. Since the latest date for which the common ancestors of the Germanic, Italo-Celtic and Indo-Aryan peoples were a unity is 4,500 BC, we can assert that the Proto-Indo-Europeans had kings 6,500 years ago. (I dispute the 4,000 BC date of wikipedia, since the horse has been shown to have been domesticated by 4,500 BC.)

(Edited by Ted Keer on 6/27, 6:16pm)




Post 4

Friday, June 27 - 10:03pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

... can someone please explain why gravitic mass and inertial mass are apparently equal?
The reason why gravitic mass and inertial mass are apparently equal is because, in order for them to be seen to diverge, the speed of the inertial object has to approach or exceed the speed of light (the proposed speed of the omni-directional tachyon field). At all speeds less than light speed (or less than tachyon speed), you wouldn't create a braking-force from making a "wake" in the tachyon field (as you do when you try to move faster than the current in a river, even if you're headed downstream).

If you would only just live dangerously and jump aboard my tachyon bandwagon, then these apparent conundrums would simply disappear or, at least, be tremendously minimized.

:-)


Ed




Post 5

Friday, June 27 - 10:09pmSanction this postReply
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Yet my anthropological authority is to remain questionable, Sir Tachyon? Or do you propose an alliance?



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Post 6

Saturday, June 28 - 4:06amSanction this postReply
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Third Paragraph:

 

“States emerged originally in the late Neolithic and Chalcolithic periods. They were ‘invented’ an uncertain number of times around the globe by people having no contact with previously established states. The most certain areas of original state formation are in Mesopotamia (4000 B.C.), in China (1850 B.C.–1100 B.C.), in Mesoamerica (1000 B.C.A.D. 300), and in Andean South America (800 B.C.A.D. 700).”

 

References

Haas, J. 1982. The Evolution of the Prehistoric State. Columbia University Press.

——., editor. 2001. From Leaders to Rulers. Kluwer Academic.

 

See also 2007 and Earliest Known City.

(Edited by Stephen Boydstun on 6/28, 10:08am)




Post 7

Saturday, June 28 - 9:51amSanction this postReply
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Ted,

Yet my anthropological authority is to remain questionable, Sir Tachyon?
I never said that, nor do I think that it could be estimated that I even ever implied as much. I propose an alliance of sorts. Hell, we're both biological scientists. We both have -- as the ordering, or governing, principle of our lives -- a very, very similar philosophy. Heck, even our own names rhyme. Our book could be called Ed & Ted's Epistemological Adventures, or something not too terribly different from that. We could shake up the world.

Now, where's my morning coffee?

Ed




Post 8

Saturday, June 28 - 11:04amSanction this postReply
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Now, where's my morning coffee?

Starbucks' took it - said it wasn't free range, or something like it....;-)




Post 9

Saturday, June 28 - 1:30pmSanction this postReply
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The question is the earliest existence of government, not of "states." While the City states of Mesopotamia, the Indus, China, Meso-America and the Egyptian and Incan empires are undoubted signs of the exitence of government, they are no better proof of its earliest existence than writing is of the presence of language or literature.

People spoke and composed epic poems long before they learned to write. Government, if it is defined as the recognition of a third party to arbitrate disputes and redress criminal acts, existed long before pyramids and ziggurats.

The Proto-Indo-Europeans, who inhabited the Russian Steppe in 4,500 BC, where they domesticated the horse with which they would conquer the world, had a vocabulary implying a complex farming and pastoral society consisting of a warrior and a priestly class in addition to free men and slaves. Their vocabulary included roots for such words as:

"one of us" arya (Sanskrit)
"free man" liber (Latin)
"companion" socius
"troop" agmen (Greek)
"country" prthivi (Sanskrit)
"lord" anax (Greek)
"king" rex (Latin)
"leader" tagos (Greek)
"clan leader" vispati (Sanskrit)
"to rule" wield (English)
"to exchange" muto (Latin)
"to purchase" venum
"to pay" priamai (Greek)
"property" res (Latin)
"hire" hire (English)
"wealth" ops (Latin)
"inherit" loan (English)
"steal" thief (Enlish)
"law" lex (Latin)

The examples give the PIE meaning, only one of the many descendent forms attested in a written language, the meaning of which may have changed in that exemplar, and the source language. Each word has several modern decendants, as does "king" rex, raja, Reich but
I have given one example per root. Other words such as "jus"-tice and "dec"-ide hav similar pedigrees/

These examples show that notions of property, law, and rulership existed among these people who did not build cities or Obelisks, but whose existence and antiquity cannot be doubted.

My source is The Oxford Introduction to Proto-Indo-European and the Proto-Indo-European World Mallory and Adams.

A similar analysis could be done for the Afroasiatic (Hamito-Semetic) family whose descendants include Hebrew, Arabic and Ancient Egyptian. That family is some 12,000 years old, and includes the original settlers of the oldest known city, Jericho.





Post 10

Saturday, June 28 - 3:08pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Stephen and Ted.

You have both facilitated my efforts to achieve the goal of understanding when government started.

Ed

p.s. Yeah, Rev' ... Starbucks. Hey, aren't they the coffee company putting the "dirty pictures" (woman w/spreaded legs in the air) on their cups in order to sell more coffee? Talk about selling sex with your drugs. The only thing missing is some good ole' rock-n-roll.




Post 11

Monday, June 30 - 9:12pmSanction this postReply
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Addendum

The Latin lex may come from a different root from the English law. While *legh- means "to lay down" (law) *leg- (logos) means, roughly, "select." If lex comes from the latter, then there still remain the individual

*tekstor "craftsman"
*westor "herdsman"
*yeudhmos "warrior"
*dhabhros "smith"

and the collective

"leHwos" "people (under arms)"
"teutA-" "people (under arms)"

under the

*wNnakts "lord"
*regs "king"
*tagos "leader"
*wikpots "clan chieftan"

who

*pot-ye- "rule"
*wal- "rule"
*reg- "rule"

them. If the law

*dheH-m-i as "deemed"

is broken by an outlaw

*Hwergh- "felon, Norse vargr (& Tolkien "warg")

then justice

*yewes "order"

can be restored under pain *kwoinA (sub poena) and *serk- sarcio restitution.



Post 12

Tuesday, July 1 - 8:35pmSanction this postReply
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The development or evolution of government was continuous.  I recommend highly that anyone interested in this read anthropology texts to compare and contrast how govenrment is expressed within hunter-gatherer, pastoralist,..., etc., ..., and post-industial societies.  As noted, among the ancient Germans -- and with other marginalized "primitive" people today -- the leader of the war party or the hunt has no other enforcement role.  He uses persuasion alone.  That would apply to the distaff side as well.  It is generally accepted that the acquistion of property items made "things" the standard of rank: the more "things" you owned, the higher your status. 

Humanity is complex. I believe it was among the Natchez Indians that the ruling class was required by custom to marry "Stinkards" (their formal name).   There are many expressions of "bride price" versus "dowry" arrangement and they reflect government: who rules and how.  Here in Michigan, we have both dower rights and curtsey rights: all of hers is hers and half of mine is hers.  We also have no capital punishment.  We are a liberal state.  It all ties together. 

I agree with Robert that Catal Huyuk is perhaps the best case, but unfortunately as my anthropology prof warned me, so little is known than everyone reads into it what they want to find.  The Cat Goddess chamber draws wiccans today.  For Robert and me, Catal Huyuk is important because its discoveries validated the theoretical predictions of Jane Jacobs in The Economy of Cities.  Above, when I mentioned hunter-gatherers and pastoralists, etc., you probably accepted the evolution of cities from farms: hunter-gatherers tamed animials, settled down, farmed and built cities and here we are today.  No way.  In truth, said Jacobs, the cities came first as permanent hunting campsites at which trade and commerce took place.  From them grew cities which allowed agriculture.  Want proof?  Where are tractors made?  On farms?  Jacobs also predicted that where you find pastoralists, in the "middle" you can find a lost city that once supported farms.

The point is that "government" (so-called) can be found in all human society: kids obey their parents... or not....  However, formalized government as intended here began with cities. 

Nonetheless, we need to parse the command side from the adjudication.  You can find the Code of Hammurabi here.  Read it.  I assure you that the Michigan Criminal Code echoes it.  I mean that: echoes -- the language is nearly identical in some places.  But the Code of Hammurabi is a command code, not adjudication.

We need to separate those two functions of government.  Friezes from Sumeria show people being beaten for not paying their taxes.  That is not adjudication.  " If any one buy from the son or the slave of another man, without witnesses or a contract, silver or gold, a male or female slave, an ox or a sheep, an ass or anything, or if he take it in charge, he is considered a thief and shall be put to death."  That is not adjudication; it is law.

If you want to find adjudication, you should start with ancient Greece.  We know Athens best.  The Assembly heard suits and anyone could bring suit and anyone could argue on behalf of another.  This mode probably began with the rise of popular government in Ionia circa 700 BCE. 

We know the Roman Senate well, but the Romans had many councils, not just the Senate.  The Senate was only the highest and most powerful.

You know, it is a funny thing, but you could make a case that government (so-called) only originated with the first theoretical considerations of what government is, how it originated (a meta-discussion), and what purposes it serves.  Look to Aristotle.

Catal Huyuk or Sumeria may or may not have been "government" in the sense intended.  Government as we here mean it -- as opposed to the fuehrer of the hunting band -- might actually be an invention of classical Greece.

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 7/01, 8:43pm)




Post 13

Tuesday, July 1 - 8:50pmSanction this postReply
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Ted, thanks for the etymologies.  Like you, I believe that we hear a lot with the "back of the mind."  Language speaks on several levels.  Roots live.  We all know the kids joke that if your nose runs and your feet smell then you are built upside down.  Nose is "rhino" and the "rh" appears in root (rhizome) and river (Rhine and Rhone; both equal "run"), so yes, the root sticking out of your face does run, just as roots run along the ground.

Hey this coffee taste like mud!
Well, it was ground this morning.

Anyway, thanks for posting the linguistic elements of thought on the problem of govenment.  I appreciate it.

(And when you speak well --  rhetoric from Greek and read in English; rehden in German, for which language "rad" (rad-ical = root) means "wheel"  -- you are "fluent.') 

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 7/01, 8:56pm)




Post 14

Tuesday, July 1 - 9:26pmSanction this postReply
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Silverbacks and Neguses

The strong leader leads his troop to sufficient resources and defends those resources well enough that his rule is tolerated, those living under him prosper. If he ages and fails, or if he rules poorly, failing to keep the peace amongst his underlings, or outside would-be rulers successfully challenge him, he is overthrown. If he is a tyrant, and terrorizes his underlings, they gang up and throw him out as well. The older physically non-dominant group members exert their influence in subtle ways. The elder statesman, if he is not killed, may relinquish authority to the new regime and remain in tolerated retirement.

A possible description of the origin of government in a tribal society - or a troop of apes? Indeed, all things human are evolutionary. Catal Huyuk is merely one of the best preserved early farming communities. It is a good example because it was not obliterated by constant inhabitation of the same site. Again, Jericho is a city with a much older and undoubtedly Natufian Afroasiatic pedigree. Afroasiatic roots show just as much if not more and older sophistication than Indo-European. I just don't happen to have a good etymological dictionary on hand. But M-L-K and N-G-S are triconsonantal roots that refer to kingship and rule. Look up the Grand NaGuS on wikipedia.

A map (minus the extinct Egyptian branch) of the Afroasiatic sub-families from the helpful http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer:



(Edited by
Ted Keer on 7/02, 11:37am)




Post 15

Wednesday, July 2 - 7:18amSanction this postReply
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But M-L-K and N-G-S are triconsonantal roots that refer to kingship and rule.

Hence, Michael King became Martin Luther King: M-L-K = "king."




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