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Post 20

Monday, November 3 - 6:16amSanction this postReply
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Steve,

I'm sure that Liberals are quite happy to see votes for Libertarians. As currently positioned, Libertarians will never draw the groundswell of support needed to be considered significant by Republicans or Democrats. At their best - on a very good day - they might provide role as a spoiler to Conservative Republican gains. This could only be changed by an exceptionally well-spoken, respectable Libertarian candidate with a well funded and well oiled campaign organization, who recognizes that he must still edge towards the middle of the road if he is to find his audience.

The audience is already too far left of center, and I agree that the center is unfortunately moving towards the left. One cannot ignore this and collect enough votes to bring the center back to the right. Put in tug-of-war terms, the end of the rope is nearer the left of center now. The viable Libertarian candidate is the one that knows he'll have to tolerate walking to the left enough to grab the end of the rope, before he can begin pulling it back in the right direction.

By this I am not suggesting embracing the left, I am suggesting Libertarians have to stop expecting voters, and the competing philosophies, to just hand them the rope and let them dismantle what they see fit. It will never happen like that. In fact, even if given free rein, it would likely be a catastrophe that would set back Libertarians and Objectivist a couple of hundred years.

Using the current strategy, and promoting loose cannons, Libertarians will never even lay a hand on the rope, let alone pull it back toward the right, and sanity.

jt



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Post 21

Monday, November 3 - 10:54amSanction this postReply
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I heard (from a reliable anecdotal source) that Democrats in Florida are coming into voting locations saying they want to change their party registration so they can vote for McCain. It seems funny that they don't seem to understand party affiliation does not matter for whom they choose as their candidate. But it seems that the "undecided" vote is significant.

Dick Morris reports:

MCCAIN GAINS IN ZOGBY POLL

By DICK MORRIS & EILEEN MCGANN

Published on DickMorris.com on November 3, 2008

It's only a one night poll, but John Zogby reports that his Friday night survey shows McCain leading Obama by 48 to 47. It's only a one night poll (as opposed to the usual three day moving average) but it is 1,000 interviews. It is also over Halloween night! But it is the first poll in three weeks that shows McCain leading. What's up? We think that the advertisement being run by GOPTrust.com is having an effect. It is an ad featuring Rev. Jeremiah Wright decrying America and calling it "the USA of KKK" while Obama sat, deaf-mute in the congregation. By bringing the shocking reality of Rev. Wright back to America's TV screens; GOPTrust.com is performing an important public service. It is just not credible that Obama sat in the congregation for twenty years, asked the Reverend to officiate at his wedding and to baptize his children, titled his book after one of his sermons, and did not know the kind of vile, anti-American hatred he was spewing...

You can see this at dickmorris.com

Any guess as to what the MSM will report on the evening news?

To forestall contrarian comments, yes, I understand this is just one poll and one anecdotal source.



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Post 22

Monday, November 3 - 11:48amSanction this postReply
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Jay, I can only say that your post has a strange kind of defeatist element to it. Somehow you appear to imbue whatever the force is that comes from the left or that moves things to the left as immutable and unstoppable - so much so that you don't even talk about doing so. While any attempt to pull things back to the right is painted as a childish, futile effort doomed to failure and led by losers.

You say, "as currently positioned, Libertarians will never..." Then they need to change positions.

You say, "The viable Libertarian candidate is the one that knows he'll have to tolerate walking to the left..." Jay, you grant a power to liberals they have only your mind, and you miss the power of the right principles and education. Maybe you are thinking in terms of an immediate win or a very short war - that would explain what you are saying. Think instead of a war that will likely go on for decades. I assure you, if any libertarian candidate starts walking to left, he has lost that battle even if he accidently wins the election.

You say, "Using the current strategy, and promoting loose cannons, Libertarians will never even lay a hand on the rope, let alone pull it back toward the right, and sanity." That is correct. But this is a long war, and we need to change the Libertarian party strategy (NOT by moving it to the left, but by making it speak strongly to those common sense, self-interest positions like small government, reduced taxes, end foreign aid, clean up corruption, balanced budgets, etc.), get rid of the loose cannons and nuts, and support voting for our principles instead of being advocates for the lesser evil which harms our chances. We will not change the republican party to put up a platform that resembles the Libertarian platform. All attempts to make of the Republican party a party supporting Capitalism and rational egoism is not even slightly realistic and all republican votes are just a form of retreat and delay in terms of the longer war.



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Post 23

Monday, November 3 - 1:41pmSanction this postReply
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I would also refer you to the study showing that the more either side wins - Republican or Democrat - regardless of what the candidate stands for - the closer the general swing of government goes to more statism (Dem) and less (Rep).  The reason Bush was closer to the Dem side was that his wins were dead heats - in contrast to say Reagan's landslides.  So once more - voting 3rd party just does the opposite of what you want.

I will try to find the article again - it was posted here once before during last election. 

Also how about this line:

One candidate was tortured by Communists and still stood up to them, the other partied with Communists (at best) and calls them his friends.  Who do you want as President?

(Edited by Kurt Eichert on 11/03, 1:49pm)




Post 24

Monday, November 3 - 6:09pmSanction this postReply
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Ted Keer -- But one elects people, not principles. Elections are not opinion surveys. And they are not, as you seem to think, a form of prayer, a message to...something. A vote is nothing more than a vote.

According to the data posted by Ted from IBD/TIPP (Investors Business Daily), based on Ted's range of the moment pragmatism, I should vote for Barack Obama.

Sen. Obama gets more support from more people who share more of my demographics:

McCain: Midwest, Suburban, 45-64, Male,White, White Man -- and that's it.
Obama:  Parent, Under $30K income, not an investor, college degree plus, moderate (not Cons or Liberal), working class, no religion, non-union, no flag.

None of that has any bearing on the ideas, ideologies or actual political history of the candidates.

Of all the candidates, Bob Barr -- even as a warmed-over conservative -- is closest to my own personal beliefs. 

I am not voting for Barr, but, my point is that Ted's taxonomy is flawed.




Post 25

Monday, November 3 - 8:15pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

I don't think I worded my last post as well as I could have, but I was not suggesting Libertarians in any way endorse some of the institutions they would otherwise like to see dismantled. I was suggesting that they will never gain any respect on the issues if they campaign to dismantle everything, now. That approach makes them unrealistic - unreasonable in the public's mind - and prevents them from taking seats in congress. Seats - I will add - that could give them a real voice in government.

jt



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