Post 60

Tuesday, July 5, 2005 - 10:07pm

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Bill,

Right on target. The true aim of terrorism in to provoke self-destructive reactions, which was why the KGB trained the trainers of the Islamist terrorists we face today. The open question is how much of the American response to Islamist terrorism is reasonable and effective, and how much is exactly the kind of self-destructive reaction that those acts of terror were meant to provoke.

Post 61

Tuesday, July 5, 2005 - 10:10pm

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Rick, Jim Bell's Assassination Politics is intriguing, though more than a little bit scary.

The reason that it is scary is that it seems so democratic and, therefore, culture dependent. If many in the culture want you dead, then they put the bounty on your head. My solution to terrorism is law-based, not mob-based.

Bell was a very interesting read though -- thanks for the link!

Ed

Post 62

Tuesday, July 5, 2005 - 10:37pm

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Sharon,

al-Queda blasts big smoking holes in Tribeca and the Pentagon, toasting thousands of innocent civilians in this country, and you say the problem is that _America_ is taking hard lines and _Bush_ is taking an extreme position?

I respect what Barbara wrote today about name-calling and ad hominem on this site, and I would really like the overall level of rancour and animosity to go down. But for that kind of protocol to fly, we're going to have learn to do a reality check before we hit that 'post' button.

My country, and much of the rest of the civilized world, has been facing _state sponsored_ terrorism for over three decades, i.e. war that pretends to be peace, conducted by people with the training and weapons of special forces soldiers, but who don't have the courage to wear a soldier's uniform, and who ooze their way among us pretending to be regular guys.

If this were the type of problem that could be solved by reaching out to others with a joint venture between Kiwanis Club and the Rotarians, we would not have reached this point.

We are at war right freaking NOW, and it was brought to our shores before Bush was sworn in. Your country has been spared, _so far_, to soften it up so that it will keep its guard down for as long as it proves to be a convenient place for the ENEMY to travel and hide and organize to conduct operations against the richer target to your _south_.

My country has offered your country the chance to create a shared security zone that would minimize friction at the border for non-combatants and promote trade while keeping armed terrorists out. But my country was rudely rebuffed because the craven leaders of your country were more interested in pandering to their domestic Islamic mob than in peace, security, trade, friendship, international cooperation, and all the other values that you claim to endorse. The refusal was an act of monumental ingratitude and short-sightedness, and it greatly pisses me off.

Okay, I'll try to calm down now so I don't type something that I regret later.

-Bill

Post 63

Tuesday, July 5, 2005 - 11:08pm

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Adam,

Thanks for the kind words.

The situation is very complex and maybe I don't know the optimum solution to the problem and maybe no one does. But the major media organs and Democratic politicians have not been criticizing the administration in good faith, which is a huge loss to our society. (Notice how I'm targeting groups that presumably do not overlap with posters on this site.) Absent logical and fair criticism, answering your question becomes so much more difficult for all of us.

When I see the massive distortions perpetrated in the press, I cannot be sure that the situation is as bad as it is presented. I have seen Bush stick to his guns on principle enough times, in a way reminiscent of Reagan's better moments, to think that maybe he will pull this one off.

The red herring of the missing WMDs, in the absence of real evidence that the administration lied, is a case in point. Today it is common to treat the lack of WMDs as evidence that Bush knew they weren't there before going in. This is a preposterous fallacy given the way the WMD theory was widely accepted for years before 2003 by so many of those who are now his foreign and domestic critics.

And John Loftus has claimed repeatedly since the operation that in the weeks that led up to it, while Powell was stalling around with his little UN charade, our intelligence services tracked truck convoys from the suspected weapons sites in Iraq to the Bekaa valley of Lebanon where the cargo was seen being buried. He claims that the administration has reasons of its own to accept the public humiliation of not producing any evidence of WMDs, rather than to go public with what it knows of this hot item.

-Bill

Post 64

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 1:18am

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Scott

Why beat around the 'Bush' Soren?� At least have the guts to openly admit that you think Bush & Cheney were behind 9/11.� Back to the primacy of consciousness conspiracy theories.
the sooner America is stopped, the more lives can be saved
Witness honest anti-Americanism!� Pathetic

"At least have the guts to openly admit that you think Bush & Cheney were behind 9/11"??... i have made no such claim, and have seen nothing it support of it, i appreciate that you want to help by putting words in my mouth, but I'd prefer speaking for myself.

What conspiracy theories ? Calling me a pathetic anti-american spreading conspiracy theories, is cheap unsubstantiated slander. When i quote PNACs own material for PNAC views i believe it to be fact. If you believe otherwise bring it on.

Was it not Ren� Magritte who said: "Ceci n'est pas une jardin d'enfants", or maybe it was just something he had smoked?

Why is it that anyone questioning the Bush administration, or the war in Iraq is labeled Anti-American? I will admit to being anti-fascist defending peace, freedom and democracy (in its many forms). I will teach my children that they have the freedom to express themselves, that democracy is the best current alternative in my part of the world, that all humans are created equal and that killing people is bad, if you see that as anti-american then so be it, you are free to teach your children other values.

At least have the guts to attack my argument not just my person.

(Edited by S�ren Olin
on 7/06, 3:13am)

Post 65

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 3:34am

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Soren,
Calm down, we "peaceseekers" will win them over eventually; if not today.............................

Meanwhile, did you read the Jim Bell's Assassination Policy? That, and Ed's lottery are precisely the kind of battling that I'm talking about. Is that the REAL CONSPIRACY? If intelligent people get control; the world WILL be out of control!! Bush is a smoke screen to keep real brains from finding real solutions and putting the traditional war machine out of business for the forseeable future. How do we get that lottery started?

Gawd!! Soren, someone's knocking at my door. Could it be the CIA?

Sharon

Post 66

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 5:07am

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Bill,

Don't let anger assassinate your authority. It's a given that Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein are heinous individuals and can't be left to their devices.

Physical battle has just become OBSOLETE. You heard it first on SOLOHQ.

Did you have a chance to read Jim Bell's Assassination Policy? Did you read Ed's Lottery Post? That's the kind of use of the human brain that I'm talking about; not using mediaeval tactics with 21st century weapons. Where's the logic in that? GAWD, think of it Star Wars- the big catapult!    ROTFLMHO

Here's another piece of questionable logic. Why is Saddam Hussein still alive? Is he being used to forever evoke anger in the American people? Please go to the top of this thread and read Drury again. The more we talk here; the more truth I see in her notion. The COVERT RULE OF THE WISE.

Revenge against 9/11 will destroy your country, Bill. A great psychiatrist needs to come forward to help America to heal. Perhaps, you won't appreciate hearing this; but your anger is not rooted in my remarks, or, in 9/11.  The seeds of anger are planted in one's earliest recollection of suffering. Today's anger has to do with your earliest recollections of feeling that way when you were a child. Other, wise Americans have written books that can help to heal those wounds on the soul.

                                            eg. My Lover, Myself : self-discovery through relationship. David Kantor,1999, Riverhead Books, Penguin

The COVERT RULE OF THE WISE is watering the seeds of America's anger; and permitting dishonourable individuals to waste your country's riches, under the guise of the war on terror. Follow the money, Bill!

Why do you think that terrorists will come in from Canada? USA has a closed border; can't your border guards be trusted? Do you think that terrorists are building weapons that will be launched over the border?

I hear all the time that Canada is riding on the coat-tails of America's defense machine. Defense against whom? There's no glory in attacking Canada; unless America starts treating us like a jewel to be valued. So please keep up the Canada bashing; I don't want anybody to find out that we might have something worth the trouble of committing robbery.

If I'm bashing America; it's because I'm trying to bash some sense into your collective heads. Here's more bashing. What would you say if I told you that I consider patriotism to be collectivism. What would you say if I told you that by giving children a couple of flags; an unbelievable game of war began; in that 5 and 6 year-olds became so frenzied and out of control, some children were injured. The flags seemed to be a catalyst that triggered the wild frenzy; and the children, losing their inner controls, started pushing each other with total abandon. I never tried that again.

Canada and United States of America are siblings; America is the big brother who had a fight with the Dad and left home to prove that he could do it his way. Canada is the little sister who became frightened by all the discord between the Dad and the older brother; but wasn't as singleminded as the brother; and found a way to get around the Dad without raising his ire. Big brother kind of resents the fact that his little sister got whatever she wanted; while he's had to do everything on his own; including babysitting her sometimes; and nobody appreciates it.

WE LOVE YOU BILL! YOU"RE TERRIFIC!      You're birthday party's over now; let's get back to solving this other mess.

Fondly. your little sister. But now, I'm an adult too.
Sharon

Post 67

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 5:36am

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Ed,

I love the way your mind works; or should I say I love the workings of your mind. Do tell us some more of your ideas. If Scott is going to become the first Objectivist President of America, he's going to need all the ideas he can get.

I see great value in generating ideas of all kinds; one thing always leads to another; and one never knows, at first blush how intense will be the scent of the rose that finally blooms.

Shall we start a new thread? BLESSED ARE THE CRACKED; FOR THEY SHALL LET IN THE LIGHT .

Sharon

Post 68

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 9:06am

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Sharon, thanks for the kind acknowledgment. To be sure, there will be more to come.

One first step would be to outline the major differences between Bell's Answer to Despotism -- Involving Democratically Elected Assassinations (ie. BAD--IDEA) and the Thompson Revolving-lottery for Undertaking Executions -- Allowing for Non Statist Ways that secure an Ethical Republic (ie. TRUE--ANSWER).

Ed

p.s. By the way, I think I've gotten "someone's" attention -- though it may be a mere individual hacker (who thinks he can "monitor" my computer without me finding out) ...

Post 69

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 10:29am

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More of the same (as per Sharon's request) ...

Motto for the TRUE-ANSWER national lottery:
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Even if you lose, you win.
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TV commercial advertisement (with above motto as continuous subtitle):
**Video-feed of an actual take down ...
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Starts with a picture (back home) of an 8-man team of top-trained, ex-Navy Seals and ex-Green Berets, bought with free market money, armed to the tilt with the latest, greatest weaponry (I'm talking hand-held EMP rifles; debilitating light- and sound-wave weaponry; temporary toxins; arm-mounted mini-homing missles; and kevlar-plated, biofeedback suits -- with continuous GPS and vital sign monitoring).

The commercial then proceeds via mounted cameras in the team's headgear -- edited for the more glorious parts of the mission. Folks will see the same dictators fall, at a profit, with less than a tenth of the usual collateral damage.
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Ed

Post 70

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 10:59am

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Ed. sorry to be so banal; but, YOU ARE A GENIUS.

Post 71

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 11:08am

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[bashfully blushing]

;-)

Post 72

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 1:27pm

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A fictional short story (new article submission) on this ... is coming soon ...

Ed

Post 73

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 1:55pm

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I am thinking of writing an article on the subject of terrorism and its causes and potential solutions, but for now I would suggest people read "The Pentagon's New Map" by Thomas Barnett (www.thomaspmbarnett.com) for some saner ideas on this. The key thing 9/11 should teach everyone (including Canadians) is that the 3rd World can't just be "walled off" in an era of globalization. The effects of terrorists, rogue regimes, and even diseases will pass through no matter what we do in defense. The only solution is to get these regions of the world connected to globalization. In most cases, war won't be needed, but in some cases it will (Saddam was one of these cases, no matter what the reason for a war was, it was necessary). If we play our cards right, Iran is ripe for change, the people are young and they want what the world has to offer. So, the fact that Shia have a strong influence in a more democratic Iraq is actually an advantage, not a problem. In other words, sometimes we need to use the stick, but the carrot is globalization and what it has to offer to be connected - a real life with a real future. This is in our self interest, not just because of the damage terrorism can cause, but also because the more people, the more individuals, become connected, the more they contribute, the better it is for everyone. The human mind = wealth. The more that are available and not imprisoned in hell holes, the better. I understand the desire for peaceful solutions to be the winning way, and they are for over half the world, but where there are no rules, no security, this can't and won't happen. So sure, for Canada, Europe, even China and Russia, that works, but the places exporting terrorism have not yet reached that point, and never will without the effort and security a country like the USA can uniquely supply. The USA can't do it alone, we need partners in Europe, and yes even in China. In fact, I bet more will help can be gained through China (and India) than Europe. The reason is that both are rapidly expanding economies with voracious appetites for raw materials that will fuel a need to secure these. Ok - I am going further than I wanted. Next time, I will try writing an article...

Post 74

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 11:29pm

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Kurt,

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I am thinking of writing an article on the subject of terrorism and its causes and potential solutions ...
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Please do. I would certainly appreciate your insight into this abstract dynamic that we refer to by the name of "terrorism."

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... but for now I would suggest people read "The Pentagon's New Map" by Thomas Barnett (www.thomaspmbarnett.com) for some saner ideas on this.
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Saner?? Are you speaking of that short-sighted, shallow-minded, Barnett-induced: "Why our boys are never coming home" sane-ness?? Gimme' a break! Statist-thought is passe' -- in my book. That's it. I'm going to put you -- with a modification of your name -- in my article (if it ever gets approved here -- and if not, it'll show up on my damn blog).

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The key thing 9/11 should teach everyone (including Canadians) is that the 3rd World can't just be "walled off" in an era of globalization.
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"The key thing 9/11 should teach everyone" is that justice --which is about treating equals equally, and unequals unequally -- is necessary for human prosperity. Walling off (and possibly annihilating) criminals is an inherent necessity to our peace and prosperity on this planet. Go see the epic motion picture, Batman Begins, for an illuminative depiction of this aspect of reality.

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The effects of terrorists, rogue regimes, and even diseases will pass through no matter what we do in defense. The only solution is to get these regions of the world connected to globalization.
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How? By altruist-collectivist world-policing -- or by a more natural justice? This is the key question, and it involves what it is we ascribe our purpose -- on this planet -- to be, or to serve.

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In most cases, war won't be needed, but in some cases it will (Saddam was one of these cases, no matter what the reason for a war was, it was necessary).
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"It" involved the loss of over 1000 US citizens lives (and counting). "It" involved a monetary cost of over $1000 per US taxpayer (and counting). "It" was "necessary?" To belabor my key theme, the means used to overthrow Saddam WAS NOT NECESSARY -- it was merely contextually-expedient, and merely so given the current nature of politics.

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If we play our cards right, Iran is ripe for change, the people are young and they want what the world has to offer.
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Kurt, you seem to have left out one "minor" detail: Iran just recently elected a more Islamic-Fundamentalist leader. Ah, but where's your optimism, Ed? Why so much realism? If we just wish enough (or spend enough), then we'll fix things. Right, Kurt??

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So, the fact that Shia have a strong influence in a more democratic Iraq is actually an advantage, not a problem.
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See directly above.

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This is in our self interest, not just because of the damage terrorism can cause, but also because the more people, the more individuals, become connected, the more they contribute, the better it is for everyone.
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Oh, I get it: The MORE we sacrifice our economic growth (by policing the world) -- the more we ALL gain. That sounds wonderful! Wonderfully collective. No thanks.

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The human mind = wealth.
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Wealth for whom?

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I understand the desire for peaceful solutions to be the winning way, and they are for over half the world, but where there are no rules, no security, this can't and won't happen.
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Thank you, Swami Guru, for your glorious, otherwise-unattainable foresight.

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So sure, for Canada, Europe, even China and Russia, that works, but the places exporting terrorism have not yet reached that point, and never will without the effort and security a country like the USA can uniquely supply.
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So, I guess we're STUCK policing folks who "can't" (actually: won't) police themselves -- BECAUSE we can. Or, in much more clear, straightforward terms: Their need is a blank check on our ability. Thank you, Elsworth Toohey.

Ed

Post 75

Thursday, July 7, 2005 - 7:32am

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Response to Ed Thompson

Sarcastic comments � no response there, since there isn�t anything to respond to. I am sure I can come up with my own sarcasm at some point, that�s easy enough to do. I don�t believe that it is reasonable to qualify Barnett�s ideas are �statist� unless you are an anarchist. In America, when the US saw the West as a wild, untamed frontier and full of primitive tribes, did they �wall it off� or did they go forth and make those lands a part of the country?

Was it �collectivist� for the US to station troops in Western Europe to contain the threat of Communism, or did it instead allow us to create great wealth here and in Europe by establishing a means by which trade was possible? Trade can�t take place without security. Capital is a coward � ask any businessman.

So I take it you are against the war in Iraq? Ed, the situation in Iran is difficult, but so was Russia. They kept electing hard-liners up until the end. The point is, authoritarian control is undermined by connection to the global economy. The more the Communists connected, the weaker their power got and continues to get.

We are not sacrificing our economic growth by exporting security, we are being paid for it. The method is the investment in our economy and purchase of our debt. This also links us as trading partners.

The human mind is wealth for the individual and us. What I am saying is that if we have a billion people unconnected, that is a billion minds unavailable for us to trade with. That is a billion minds of untapped individual potential. I understand some of the way this can be considered �altruism� but that is actually a selling point � it is a concept that can appeal to many ideologies, hence it can get the support to work. The key, in my mind, is to concentrate not on mindless �foreign aid� and �shared resources� (which really is altruism) but to prove that private investment and free trade following shared security can prove to be a win-win.

Far from continually policing, the goal is to integrate the Nations in question through a combination of direct intervention (when necessary), security, diplomacy, and economic integration. Each victory adds that area to our world and shrinks the area of their world � in other words, we conquer what I would now consider our last �frontier� on earth and we make it ours. I don�t mean �ours� in the old sense of imperialism, but �ours� in the sense that these countries can now compete and interact in the way the US and Canada do, by trade and diplomacy. That can�t happen now.

I think that is a concept that can work for almost any ideology.

(Edited by Kurt Eichert on 7/07, 9:36am)

Post 76

Thursday, July 7, 2005 - 10:31am

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Okay Kurt, you have effectively watered down the possible originations and implications of Team America: World Police -- I will not put you -- as a character -- in my forthcoming short story (that would be, given this new context of reasoning, rude of me).

Ed

Post 77

Thursday, July 7, 2005 - 11:51am

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I kind of like the idea of being a character in a story, though :)

Post 78

Thursday, July 7, 2005 - 1:38pm

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Kurt,

Not the kind of character which I had planned for you to play (read between the lines of my post 74 "tirade" above, for clues on how I had you type-casted) ...

Ed

Post 79

Saturday, July 9, 2005 - 1:02pm

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Article now in queue, awaiting acceptance/rejection ...