RoR: Forum

Post 0

Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 9:02pm

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I pasted the list into OpenOffice, it sums to 16,257 kills and 35,500 injured.

Post 1

Friday, August 19, 2005 - 1:13am

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Dean,

Those numbers scare me.

I get optimistic every time I meet a moderate Muslim but I haven't met many. Perhaps a Muslim Renaissance, Reformation and Enlightenment are on the way. I do hope this is the case.

I have had several brilliant Muslim math majors at my school, but I couldn't assess their politics and I sure-as-hell wasn't going to ask.

Marty

Post 2

Friday, August 19, 2005 - 8:17am

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As an atheist, I was once in college and there was a Muslim (a happy-go-lucky, dopey and chubby kind of guy few of us ever took seriously or saw as threatening, to say the least) in our midst in our dorm room commons. The topic came up and I happened to make a cynical comment about God. Mind you, this is long before I had any idea about what a Muslim really was...

Right away (as if in a brainwashed trance) he completely changed charcter on a dime...he jumped up and his eyes were fierce and glaring and savage. He pointed at me in front of everyone and started roaring at me about how I would NOT talk about God like that and just started going insane about it. By the time he sat down, it was obvious from the look on everyone's faces that no one had ever known what had been in their midst all along. Had he had a sword or machete nearby, there was no doubt he would have hacked me to death with it right there. He was that zealous, seemingly from out of nowhere.

And before this, he had blended with us perfectly... he had always been this chubby teddy-bear type with virtually no trace of accent whatsoever, and as seemingly Americanized as any of us. But this experience opened my eyes to something that I would see again following this incident: that this sort of thing could be very deeply ingrained in Muslims and pop out when you least expect it, and from those you would least suspect.

Post 3

Friday, August 19, 2005 - 9:11am

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Celeste,

Just a few weeks ago I had a series of debates with a Muslim on, among other things, God. He and I remained cordial during and friends afterwards. If you like, continue with the inane anecdotes that supposedly "enlighten" us all about the "true" nature of Islamists. I'll be glad to counter as many as I can until I get bored with you.

Sarah

Post 4

Friday, August 19, 2005 - 9:32am

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I agree, it is so hard to ascertain anecdotal stories about anonymous encounters. Let’s take an actual case, that of the 9/11 mastermind, Khalid Shaikh Mohammad captured in Pakistan last year:

Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was a student in North Carolina in the mid-1980s when he was first tempted by terror, but his murderous thoughts were masked by a happy-go-lucky facade that led fellow students to call him the king of comedy.

KSM has become one of the most famous and reviled terrorists in America, but ex-classmates are still amazed at what lurked under a cheerful facade.

"This guy was the king of comedy," said Badi Ali, a Muslim student in Greensboro who remembers Mohammed's spoofs of skits from NBC's "Saturday Night Live." "It was 'Friday Night Live' for the Muslim students."

At school, he was registered as Khalid Mohammed, but fellow Aggies nicknamed him Blushi after the Baluchistan region of Pakistan, home to his family before they moved to Kuwait, and no doubt because his routines reminded them of the show's star, John Belushi.

With Mohammed, it was a "nonstop comedy zone," Ali said. "He can enter a room and make everybody laugh without saying anything, just his body language."

Ah, the banality of evil ...

Post 5

Friday, August 19, 2005 - 9:48am

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Jason,

Anecdotal evidence with a face is still anecdotal evidence. Either way you've got yourself a fallacious argument. Shove it.

Sarah

Post 6

Friday, August 19, 2005 - 10:31am

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Anecdotal evidence is a two-way street Sarah.

Post 7

Friday, August 19, 2005 - 10:40am

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Jody,

If you're referring to post 3, I was trying to imply that I would reply to Celeste's meaningless anecdotes with my own meaningless anecdotes, just to keep the score even. :)

Sarah

Post 8

Friday, August 19, 2005 - 10:43am

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Sarah-
I thought that might be the case, just wanted to make sure. :)

Post 9

Friday, August 19, 2005 - 11:04am

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Don't understand the attack on Jason his anecdote simply reinforced the one in Post 2.

Gee Sarah everyone knows anecdotal evidence is not proof, why the hysterical reaction? Is your point that anecdotes be outlawed?

Post 10

Friday, August 19, 2005 - 11:12am

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The problem with the "read the Koran, see we are a religion of peace" argument is that there are probably only 3 Muslims (I exaggerate) in the world who follow only the Koran. What is largely more import in understanding Muslims is/are the hadith(s), a body of teachings and (shudder) anecdotes attributed to Mohammed and his 'disciples'. To know Islam, you must know hadith. This body of eclecticism is held in higher respect than the Koran.

Post 11

Friday, August 19, 2005 - 11:29am

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Robert,

The "hysterical" reaction was spurred by the generalization that Muslims are inherently evil/violent/shifty. "Everyone" may know that anecdotal evidence isn't proof, but that doesn't stop "everyone" from reaching conclusions based on such evidence, such as, apparently, Celeste, Jason, and Joel.

Sarah

Post 12

Friday, August 19, 2005 - 11:40am

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Sarah, excuse me, but you sound a bit paranoid. I gave a simple example from the public record of the general observation (attributed to Hannah Arendt) that evil men seldom appear to wear horns – what she called the banality of evil.

In the Daily News article above, the mastermind of 9/11, appeared to everyone to be a jovial everyday character. Clearly no one suspected the evil he was capable of.

One of the touches I liked in The Fountainhead was that she made the villain, Elsworth Toohey, into a respected gentleman of letters. Everyone found him so harmless – even Wynand.

In any case, this was the point of my post.

Post 13

Friday, August 19, 2005 - 11:42am

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Sarah,

It's your anecdotes that are inane here, not mine. I've watched you methodically and contemptibly blow your nose on every person's attempt in here to inform this group about Islam. You're either an ostrich or an apologist, and one that I was much more tired of from post one than you ever were of me, I can most definitely assure you.

Your vicious attacks on all of us reveal you for the sell-out you really are. And you can shove that, Hogatha.

(Edited by Celeste Norcross on 8/19, 11:43am)

Post 14

Friday, August 19, 2005 - 11:45am

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Robert,

thank you for your patient posts. I am reading them and will investigate what you mention further.

Post 15

Friday, August 19, 2005 - 11:54am

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Jason,

If I seem paranoid, let's explore why. Take the site linked to above. Purportedly about Islam, the links to "about islam," "issues," "countries," and "resources and information" go nowhere. They're not broken links, as far as I can tell, they just don't go anywhere.

Only in passing do they try to separate Islam from Muslims: "Islam is a broad faith and it would be wrong for anyone to stereotype Muslim individuals." (from the about section) In practice, however, the site says nothing that I could find regarding Islam itself, just that Muslims like blow people up.

Sarah

Post 16

Friday, August 19, 2005 - 12:00pm

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Celeste,

I consistently "blow my nose" at those who, while attempting to inform people about Islam, proceed to attack Muslims. Would you care to explain how I'm a "sell-out" if I haven't compromised my own principles?

Sarah

P.S. I've learned to look out for the Smurf references from Rick.

Post 17

Friday, August 19, 2005 - 12:08pm

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I can’t speak for the owner of the website “religion of peace.” But let me say that on my website I’ve been emphatic when it comes to distinguishing between the philosophy (the religion of Islam) and sociology (the demographic group of Muslims that spans devout jihadists to secular everyday nominal Muslims.)

From my first post on the topic:

We need to do two things. We must face the threat of Islam but we must not allow ourselves to demonize a nominal demographic group. Justice requires that we give what is due: to expose what is vicious and praise what is benevolent. Moral integrity requires that we speak out to warn of the dangers that are and respect those who are harmless. If we fail to face evil, we will suffer. If we exceed our mark and attack the innocent, we become fools and discredit our cause.

From my second post dealing with the same issue, I argued that one should focus on the ideology and not the demographic group.

Now, we aren’t about to see eye to eye, but let’s not exaggerate the other persons position. I’ll let others speak for themselves but I believe we need to talk about ideas while respecting individuals.

(Edited by Jason Pappas
on 8/19, 12:09pm)

Post 18

Friday, August 19, 2005 - 12:11pm

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Jason,

I've been informed by someone I trust that you do, in fact, distinguish between the dangers of Islam and Muslims. I'd like to issue a preliminary apology while I review your blog.

I'm sorry.

Sarah

Edit: Ack, you beat me to the post.

(Edited by Sarah House on 8/19, 12:12pm)

Post 19

Friday, August 19, 2005 - 1:11pm

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Celeste,

You are one of the few who have ever considered me patient. Thank you.