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Post 20

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 9:27amSanction this postReply
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Why limit the discussion to employment and education?  What about love?  I have a friend who goes bonkers for Asian women.  He married a Filipina.  That gave her advantages no other woman could have with him.  He plainly discriminated on the basis of race.

If I purposely hire a man as my secretary to travel with me on business so I do not find myself tempted toward hanky-panky, is my decision unjust?

Hooters hires beautiful women as waitresses.  That is part of their image.  The Equal Employment Opportunity (EEO) officers have been harassing Hooters to hire men, thus corrupting their branding and limiting choices for the owners and customers of Hooters.

Where does it end, Sarah?  At what point do you want to stop this continual constriction on the freedom of the individual to make his own choices?




Post 21

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 9:29amSanction this postReply
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"What right is violated when "one individual discriminates based on non-merit issues"?"

I can't think of any. And right now I'm so infuriated I can't think straight about much at all, so I'm going to take a break. Maybe I'll come back to the issue, if I decide to participate in RoR at all anymore.



Post 22

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 9:30amSanction this postReply
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Certainly Martha cannot be expected to sit on her hands and watch her holdings go down the drain, but what are everyone’s thoughts on the CEO’s actions? Let’s assume it is true that he did share the information with only her and others of his friends. Is he at fault for that?



Post 23

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 9:36amSanction this postReply
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Rodney,

Who's ass do I have to kiss to get you to tell me why you believe my comment to be idiotic?




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Post 24

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 9:43amSanction this postReply
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Sarah,
On the TOC website, under the Q&A, Will Thomas makes the following point in answer to a question about victimless crimes:
Objectivism does not equate the moral and the political. The moral basis of a just political system is individual rights. This means, that one has the political right to do wrong, the right to do what one should not.
This is the distinction that is being emphasized in this thread.

Glenn




Post 25

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 9:45amSanction this postReply
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Luke,

Robert, are you arguing that a person who discovers advantageous knowledge should not employ it?
Not at all.  I am arguing for a level playing field.  The 'knowledge' should not be hidden from some, while available to those with the 'right connections'; that is called fraud. 

If all had access to the same information and Martha was the only one clever enough to prosper, she would have richly deserved her reward.

 




Post 26

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 9:50amSanction this postReply
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No one's will work. The reason is that the idea on public stock you expressed is so clearly wrong that it doesn't bother me to leave it unanswered. Like the article itself.




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Post 27

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 9:54amSanction this postReply
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I must agree with Sarah when she says, “Just that no matter how small the minority, they're on their own? Sorry, I don't accept that as just.”

 

Sarah is absolutely correct.

 

There must exist a mechanism by which to protect the individual rights of these minorities, especially the smallest and most vulnerable among them. That being the case, I cannot think of a smaller and more vulnerable minority than the single lone individual person. The individual is truly the smallest and most vulnerable minority. So it is incumbent upon us all to support any and all government actions that protect that person’s individual rights from any coercive discrimination by the majority. Majority discrimination enforced by law ; such as telling a man who he must associate with, who he must work for, who he must hire or fire, who he must do business with, ect. This type of coercion, if left unchecked will quickly spread beyond this smallest of minorities business life, and before you know it, it will seep into his personal life as well.

 

There are those that feel they have the right to discriminate against the individual’s personal preferences and choices because it does not meet their own, or some so-called: “societies”. These people take this position because they have no respect for minority rights; this is intolerable and a gross injustice that the government has the obligation to intervene in. Sarah and I understand that in order to protect minority rights from injustice and coercion we must start with the smallest of them, and from there work our way up.

Like Sarah, I despise institutionalized discrimination, especially when it is aimed at our weakest and most vulnerable; the individual.

 

 

George




Post 28

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 10:10amSanction this postReply
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I agree with Robert D. A strong case can be made that insider trading on privileged information is fraud. I don't advocate that it be illegal, for it should be a contractual matter between inside owners and outside owners.

What was wrong in the Martha Stewart case is an insider informing her without informing other shareholders.

When insider trading on privileged information is permitted without the consent of outside owners, there is much potential for fraud. Imagine being an outside (passive) owner with a 25% interest in a business. Consider two possibilities:

1. An inside owner comes to you knowing about a very recent loss of a major customer that will significantly depress future earnings. You don't know about losing the customer, the inside owner doesn't tell you, but he wants to sell some of his shares to you and tells you a phony story about why he wants to sell.

2. The inside owner comes to you knowing about a very recent new major customer that will significantly increase future earnings. You don't know about the new customer, the inside owner doesn't tell you, yet he wants to buy some of your shares and tells you a phony story about why he wants to buy.

You have invested significant money in the business but this is the way a co-owner treats you. How would you like it? This is a matter of property rights.

(Edited by Merlin Jetton on 1/25, 10:17am)




Post 29

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 10:23amSanction this postReply
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P.S. "Where does it end, Sarah? At what point do you want to stop this continual constriction on the freedom of the individual to make his own choices?"

Slippery slope.



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Post 30

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 10:30amSanction this postReply
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Luke,

I find nothing wrong with this article. Actually I am glad to see it. I cannot imagine an article from a collectivist complaining about Ayn Rand's influence on the world during her lifetime. Lot's of people misrepresented her ideas while she was alive. But I can't remember any that went on the defensive as much as this one did.

This article is solid proof that Rand is making a difference in society. What's in the article means nothing. Nobody will remember it anymore in a couple of weeks, so a point-by-point refutation is gist for your dice thrower gif file.

Michael




Post 31

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 10:36amSanction this postReply
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I recall some other thread, I think on this forum but maybe on Solo Passion, that discussed "slippery slope" and implied that it was somehow a fallacious argument.  Could someone explain this to me, because I employ "slippery slope" arguments a lot, and I see nothing wrong with taking a position to its ultimate logical conclusion to make a point.



Post 32

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 10:39amSanction this postReply
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Laure,

Slippery slope



Post 33

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 10:50amSanction this postReply
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George,

That is it exactly. 

I envy your energic ability to cross every T and dot every I, and not skip steps before getting to the conclusion. 

I sincerely wish I had your literary ability and patient temperament.

(Edited by Robert Davison on 1/25, 10:57am)




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Post 34

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 11:00amSanction this postReply
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Per the link Sarah offered on the "Slippery Slope" argument:

This type of argument is by no means invariably fallacious, but the strength of the argument is inversely proportional to the number of steps between A and Z, and directly proportional to the causal strength of the connections between adjacent steps.

I disagree that my argument is an appeal to the "slippery slope."  Even if it is, it still makes it "by no means invariably fallacious."  My argument does not involve intermediate steps, but a wider range of possible applications of the principle she advocates.

Sarah advocates restricting the legal right to choose any action not involving physical force or fraud.  She claims she wants to confine that restriction to the context of employment and education to achieve an equality of opportunity or outcome in those contexts.  I simply supplied a much wider context of how one can apply that restriction for an alleged greater equality of opportunity or outcome for all regardless of personal tastes and preferences.

If personal tastes and preferences can apply to mate selection, they should apply to employee selection as well.  That really is the heart and soul of liberty: the freedom to associate with those one chooses.




Post 35

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 11:04amSanction this postReply
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At what point do you want to stop this continual constriction on the freedom of the individual to make his own choices?

At the point when his choice does not violate the individual rights of others. It has to be clear that the freedom of any individual ("to make his own choice") is not absolute, doesn't it? Nobody is free to hurt others, right?




Post 36

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 11:05amSanction this postReply
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Sarah:
don't bother thinking straight - go by queer reasoning ... let me illustrate:
a straight woman once asked her lesbian friend: 'What can I do Not to discriminate you?' her answer was: 'Forget that I'm a lesbian. And never forget that I'm a lesbian.'
treat every individual as an individual: forget that she has black skin, slanted eyes, cockney accent and ogles women in the streets from her vantage point of a wheelchair ... in our beautiful world such tolerance is rare: therefor she has met with some really ugly shit that 'WASP women' rarely experience or even try to understand ... this changes just about every little detail in her life - every decision, every action, every intention, every word, every thought, is influenced by these circumstances ... and still she tries to live her life as an individual - as if everything else did not matter ...
I can understand and fully sympathize with your frustration and anger at the rampant discrimination going on in this zoo, but governments, laws, courts, police, army, have failed miserably at upholding the first (individuality) and preventing the latter (discrimination) - so I'd rather be on my own fighting the assholes in this world than having a government to protect me that would rather put me away in a very dark hole
to put it in political terms: our governments, courts, police are elected and put in place by a (so-called) majority of social creatures who's goal it is to adapt to this majority to gain maximum benefits from their 'representatives' - so discrimination of minorities (and especially the ultimate minority George so well discribes: the individual) is not very high on their list of priorities - nor will it ever be: would go against the collective interest of those adapting to the social norm and profiting from it at the expense of the individual




Post 37

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 11:20amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

"I am arguing for a level playing field. The 'knowledge' should not be hidden from some, while available to those with the 'right connections'; that is called fraud. "

I agree with you in principle. But it is impossible to disseminate information such that it reaches everyone at exactly the same time. And people who are aware of new information will always act in their own interest. It may seem that it is unfair but it doesn't amount to fraud. I hold Martha Stewart blameless. Instant massively parallel access to information violates physical law and is impossible. Asking people to not act in their own interest violates natural law as well.

I suppose it's possible to limit trading to only one or two hours a day, every other day, to allow people to "catch up". And we could watch our whole economy go in the dumpster.



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Post 38

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 11:47amSanction this postReply
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When a stock goes 'public', no one should have the right to knowledge that other holders of the stock are not privy to.
That is tantamount to saying that if you live in public housing(i.e. apartments or condos) you have to wait until all parties are warned about the fire before you begin your egress.




Post 39

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 11:59amSanction this postReply
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What disturbs me about this piece is that Julian Edney, the guy who wrote it, has to suffer the reality of holding these views. I hate to see unnecessary pain and this man is volunteering for it.




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