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Post 80

Friday, January 27, 2006 - 11:55amSanction this postReply
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... and also 15 lines longer - so simple paragraph breaks is my compromise to double paragraph breaks with empty lines between ...



Post 81

Friday, January 27, 2006 - 12:34pmSanction this postReply
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On the web paragraphs are separated by blank lines. If there are no blank lines there are no paragraphs. A screen full of solid, unbroken text is too difficult to read — my eyes glaze over and I don't even try. YMMV



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Post 82

Friday, January 27, 2006 - 12:39pmSanction this postReply
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In brief response to Vera, I think man's ability to produce and to alter his environment to suit his wants is heroic and inspiring, not ignoble. As for the myth that man's productivity is an unnatural blight on nature, this world view smuggles in a premise that is false, namely that untrammeled nature has intrinsic value. However, the concept of value obviously presupposes a valuer; which means, of course, that individuals seek to gain values to sustain and improve their lives. Nature has no intrinsic value, and man--within the context of rational choice--ought to pursue his own ends without guilt.

In a free society, man won't exhaust "natural resources"; man creates resources. Prior to the industrial revolution, of what value to man were oil seeps? Prior to the computer age, of what use was silicon? The potential for discovery and development is literally infinite, and man's ability to think and produce ought to be celebrated.




Post 83

Friday, January 27, 2006 - 12:47pmSanction this postReply
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Mark,

I just want to say one thing about what it is that you (in post 82) had to say -- and how it is that you went about saying it ...

THAT WAS AWESOME!!!

Ed
[Vera, I emphatically second Mark's sentiment/reasoning]






Post 84

Friday, January 27, 2006 - 2:22pmSanction this postReply
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geeze - how easy it is to twist my words - obviously I am expressing myself rather badly - with or without web paragraph deviders - which btw. are not empty lines but added height of the paragraph format, which these posts do not have ... but that's not the point - legibility is, so I'll bear Rick's suggestion in mind for future long posts - btw: what does YMMV mean (serious question - I like acronyms)?

as for Mark's statement of man's ability to produce I emphatically second Ed's emphatic seconding - it is indeed great and should be possible without guilt - what I find more ambiguous is man's alteration of the environement to suit his wants - if I was surrounded by rational man I'd second even that statement without reservations - as I am to the contrary mostly surrounded by irrational man (at least here in Germany in my direct surroundings and through those impacting me indirectly) I do reserve judgement on some/many of these alterations to an environement that impacts me directly and most of the wants that led to such alterations

as it is my very own, personal, individual well-being, and to some point even my life itself, that is threatened by some man's unchecked change of environment created by his wants, I'd argue that it depends very much on the change and the want of that man to be either noble or ignoble - starting with simple claustrophobia, over to respiratory problems since the time I started working in cities, with chronic headaches from radiation poisoning as a new development and (for now) ending with a nuclear reactor at my city gates capable of ending my life any time a small private jet crashes into it

as for your myth of productivity being a blight on nature - read my post and you can keep your myth ( ' I am NOT proposing to curtail progress to protect environment ') - I was also nowhere arguing an intrinsic value claimed by nature itself - I would dare to argue on another thread though that another individual's rights to those natural ressources are just as valid, even if it were only for recreational purposes (to keep the argument simple)

and before I have to repeat myself on another post: I know it is possible solve these problems and it is Not the fault of the rational producer who would in his own personal interest prevent such short-comings/failures of his production - but as I already stated I am not surrounded by rational man governed by personal self-interest and these are the consequences of their production, alteration and wishes




Post 85

Friday, January 27, 2006 - 3:15pmSanction this postReply
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This site uses <br> instead of <p> markup.

YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary



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Post 86

Friday, January 27, 2006 - 7:35pmSanction this postReply
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Ed, thanks for the compliment. The best analysis I've read on environmental issues is the long chapter in George Reisman's Capitalism; my comments primarily reflect what I learned from that source. Another excellent source is Robert Bidinotto's blog EcoNOT.com.

Vera, thanks for your good natured response to my post. I don't want to twist the  meaning of your comments. But, with respect, some of your ideas on this topic reflect widely-held fallacies: from economics, from ethics, and from (what I see as ) technophobia.

An example of a fallacy from economics is your belief that a free society is capable of or even likely to yield productive activity that "runs down" the earth's ability to properly support human life. However, natural resources are not primarily a product of nature; they are a product of individual human ingenuity.

Another economic fallacy involves dropping the issue of private property rights when considering the issue of pollution. In fact, neither concept can be correctly understood in the absence of the other. For, in a free society based on voluntarism and private property, pollution is an act of tresspass: the dumping of someone's unwanted material by-products on another's property. True, the rivers, oceans, and air are not privately owned, but they can and ought to be. And of course, "unwanted material by-products" are materials for which some enterprise paid good money going in, but has to toss away going out. So aside from the central issue of disposal without trespassing, the profit motive constantly encourages private firms to minimize pollution.

Still another economic fallacy is the view (often held implicitly) that productive activity is a zero sum game, in which someone's profit represents another's loss. This view attributes morally tainted motives to the producer who supposedly exploits the losers with shoddy goods, with radiation poisoning and other forms of pollution, with tainted landscapes and vast parking lots, with advertising that inspires glutenous human wants. However, in a free society producers must appeal to the self interest of their customers; consequently, gouging and exploitation are impossible and have never happened (not in the way that orthodox historians teach us.) In fact, the smoke belching from some industrial stack represents improved physical well-being and opportunity for lots of people: those who buy its products or products it contributes to, those who supply its materials and equipment, and those who work there.

Human "wants" get criticized a lot as "selfish", "greedy", and "materialistic". And it's true that some people exaggerate the importance of material acquisition to the exclusion of spiritual concerns. For example, someone who commits fraud, or abuses a friend's trust, for the sake of acquiring a new BMW has skewed values. But, of course, there is nothing wrong with wanting to own a fleet of BMW's and to achieve as much material well-being as one can, provided that one does not sacrifice other values essential to one's happiness. Whenever I hear someone protesting human "wants", as though "wanting" were somehow morally tainted, my antennae go up.  Perhaps in your case this criticism is unfair.

Finally, I doubt the realism of contemporary fears of technology: the angst associated with nuclear power, electromagnetic radiation from power lines, ingesting or touching  "chemicals", animal or human "cloning", and CO2 "pollution" (which makes plant life flourish!). In fact, I doubt the validity of the concept of eco-systems.




Post 87

Friday, January 27, 2006 - 10:24pmSanction this postReply
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Ecosystems, are nothing but 'slices' amidst a specific timespan over a specific area - since the universe is dynamic, and nothing stays the same over the course of time, no ecosystem can last, but has to alter according to the dymanics of the wider realms, which include the confluences of the solar system, and indeed [over the LONG haul] ,the galactic... and over the short haul, even from week to week as weather changes......



Post 88

Friday, January 27, 2006 - 10:25pmSanction this postReply
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I hate to be called a sycophant, but I'm really on Mark's coat-tails here (he's "saying it" even better than I had even planned to!).

Thanks for the concerned diligence, Mark. Great (not just "good") answers.

Ed




Post 89

Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 5:36amSanction this postReply
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Robert
I'm fully aware and agree with you on the 'slices' in time and space and the natural and unnatural changes they are going through - but I'm living in the current 'slice' and lots of its 'unnatural' changes suck - even if it is just a transitional period to some 'greater benefit' (pick your scenario) for all individuals, or even their 'total extinction' - it still means I have to deal with the shit thrown at me now - so allow me my present 'wailing' - it will also become just an echo in a distant galaxy ;-)

Mark - and on his coat-tails 'sycophant' Ed :-]
what I'm understanding from this discussion is how ingrained the hatred of ecology (the eco-freak variety) in many objectivsts and free market advocates is - even to the extent of twisting this hatred into my posts where I tried to the best of my (perhaps limited) abilities to separate out some of the confrontative issues - you're actually the only one who even considers that I might not be a total 'eco-freak' - below some answers to your points
from (what I see as ) technophobia
Ha! I love that one :-] I'm usually considered to be a terrible techno-geek - I even work in IT - very amusing to be painted as the eco-freak and technophobe for a change :))
that a free society is capable of or even likely to yield productive activity that "runs down" the earth's ability to properly support human life
I've answered that in oh some many ways I feel like a parrot: it is not a group of individuals (I hate the baggage 'society' is associated with) that will do that, as it is in their own personal interest not to - it is our present society with all its contradictions that is doing just that - and would have succeeded already if it hadn't been for the ingenuity of a few individuals who saved their asses
natural resources are not primarily a product of nature
as already suggested I'd prefer to take this to another post on property rights of earth and its products (if you're interested) - in short I am not advocating 'earth ownership' (though that idea would appeal to me personally, but could not be defended in an objectivist world), but suggesting to have a closer look at how this unowned property and/or natural production get's distributed to individual property in the first place and who is doing the distribution
pollution is an act of tresspass ... the profit motive constantly encourages private firms to minimize pollution
not while they can still dump their garbage for free on 'unowned property' - the penalties are mostly cheaper than cleaning it up in the first place - and 'new' kinds of pollution (e.g. radiation from mobile phones and their connecting towers) are denied to be pollution for years before their destructive effect can no longer be ignored and have to be acknowledged as trespassing on another individual's rights ... and I fully agree with you on the pollution as trespassing - but as long as property rights don't get resolved we'll have to deal with the consequences of that 'split issue' in our present society
which someone's profit represents another's loss
I've never held this view as an intrinsic part of production - I do hold this view in our present economic environment where many/most producers do no longer care for the quality of their product as they have masses of customers who are happy with the cheaper, shoddy products often resulting in another's loss who is not willing to put up with the harmful consequences of the shoddy products - to use the same example of mobile phone pollution: in your free society producers and consumers would have an equal interest in producing phones which minimise this pollution even at a higher price (could be even cheaper if you let Galt & Rearden Ltd. do it) - in our present society of second-handers (my personal evaluation only) the cheapest price and abundant availability is valued higher than the pollution that could be prevented at a small cost - most of these second-handers do not consider (or even know of) the TCO (total cost of ownership) they are incurring with this short-sightedness (pollution clean-up, medical bills, lowered life quality, even death)
the smoke belching from some industrial stack represents improved physical well-being and opportunity for lots of people:
I understand what you are saying and mostly even agree - the same short-sightedness should be avoided if the shoe is on the other foot - but if this well-being and opportunity is bought at the price of trespassing on the rights of even one individual it becomes wrong - even if it benefits many others
protesting human "wants", as though "wanting" were somehow morally tainted, my antennae go up
so do mine - I've been smeared as selfish and greedy from childhood on, simply for insisting on what is important to me and and going for it - what I'm denouncing though is what it has come to mean in the world around me - let me give you an example: one ad for a lottery has some rather 'uncouth' (for want of better words) youth saying 'I'm young I need the money' - another portrays a 'happy-go-easy' teenager saying: 'looking for a job - offering enthusiasm' - that is the human wants I am confronted with every day (and not just in ads) - the wants to have at no personal price or effort, that have created the problems of pollution, exploitation, shortage - the moocher who's want for money is won in a lottery instead of producing it - the second-hander who's want for a job is enough to get it, no matter what his qualifications are - that is the moral taint I'm denouncing in wanting - not the human want to better your own life to make something more of it - by your own abilities and efforts
 I doubt the realism of contemporary fears of technology
I do not doubt the realism of that reactor standing outside Munich who's protective mantle was designed thirty years ago, built twenty years ago and is still in operation in spite of several independant studies showing that the mantle could not withstand the crash of a small private jet - I do doubt however that fear of technolgy will solve this threat - I even am of the (personal) opinion that better technolgy is the only way to counter that threat - but that would involve a) creators to come up with that technology and b) producers to finance and build it - both of which are pretty 'scarce' around here (for Rick: 'in short supply') - so we may be quite far from that free society you portray - the only reason I do not fear that reactor is because there's no difference if I'm blown up by nuclear fusion, eaten alive by cancer, or am run over by some incompetent driver - I'm still dead ;-) but not fearing a danger does not mean douting its reality
I doubt the validity of the concept of eco-systems
if you paint it in the colours of an eco-freak I'll have to agree with you - my validity of an eco-system is nature living in harmony between all it's involved species and their members - that makes for a pretty powerful productive environment - and for a beautiful environment at that, even if beauty lies in the eye of the beholder - and parasites have no place in it

VSD




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Post 90

Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 9:54amSanction this postReply
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Mark's posts on this thread have been brilliant.  Well done.   I don't think that this conversation can really proceed until Vera checks some of her premises.  

Here is a prime example --

" I do hold this view in our present economic environment where many/most producers do no longer care for the quality of their product as they have masses of customers who are happy with the cheaper, shoddy products often resulting in another's loss who is not willing to put up with the harmful consequences of the shoddy products"

Those cheaper "shoddy" products do not represent a loss to anyone.  Those who want higher quality, more expensive products should look for other places to shop.   Where are these "harmful consequences" you speak of?  Are people actually having their rights violated or are some in the minority merely having their high brow aesthetic sensibilities offended?  No one is suffering any loss.  Everyone is free to spend more money on better products elsewhere.

I find that most anti capitalist arguments are merely based upon the aesthetic preferences of the complainers.   This is usually mixed with some utilitarian argument infering that their aesthetic preferences represent what is in the common good.  For example, they want to shut down Walmart stores because they are an eye sore, the products are "shoddy" and their employees are payed lower wages.   All of this is ugly to the anti-capitalist who attempts to assert that that without Walmart (or whatever its German equivalent is) the products people could buy would be better, stores would be prettier and lower skilled workers would make better wages. 

How people at our current level of economic development will be able to afford these prettier higher quality replacements or how lower skilled workers will be able to find higher wages (or any replacement jobs) is of course met with a gigantic blank out.   Vera I am not suggesting that you are missing all of these points but you seem to buy into the underlieing irrational, aesthically driven (rather then reality driven) premises of both the anti-capitalists and the environmentalists.  You simply reject their totalitarian solutions. 

If you look closely you will see that your above argument is no different in nature then Sara's earlier irrational arguments for anti-discrimination laws.  Both of you assume that people have a right to a Platonic standard of fairness.  She asserts these rights in the social sphere and you assert them in regard to the products and services that other people "ought" to provide to you.

 - Jason 




Post 91

Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 11:48amSanction this postReply
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Jason - you're a prime example of the blind prejudice I was talking of - how does cheap electricity bought at the price of low security nuclear reactors that can blow up half of Europe not represent a loss to anyone? How is that not a harmful consequence? Because I'm not dead yet?

I am as a matter of fact spending my money elsewhere but that does not stop these reactors, it does not stop the sale of cheap shoddy mobile phones if I and a handful of others are investing our money in quality - if you want to compare that to your 'eye-sores' go right ahead - but I think it is you who has a bit of a skewed perspective on this one so maybe you should take your own advice and check your premises

and don't even start on the false dichotomy of aesthetic vs. reality - I may actually prefer an aesthetic life to living in a pig-sty ... same goes for comparing my posts to Sarah's which does not invalidate mine nor her's unless you actually bother to answer the arguments presented instead of reading your interpretation/prejudices into them 

Edited down from a two-pager rant - it's not worth it ... on this level you are right: my conversation with You can not proceed




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Post 92

Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 12:42pmSanction this postReply
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Vera, you do realize that you just openly admited to everything I claimed about your position in my last post don't you?  

Don't dance around the real questions I asked in my last post.  How is the wide availability of so called "shoddy" mobile phones harmful to you? (cheap mobile phones are actually damn good these days compared with just a couple of years ago) Why is the fact that there are no vegitarian resturaunts where you live harmful to you?  Do you have a right to have these things provided to you?

"and don't even start on the false dichotomy of aesthetic vs. reality - I may actually prefer an aesthetic life to living in a pig-sty"

No doubt you do, but you don't have any right to demand that your preferences be fulfilled by other people and that is precisely what you are claiming in your argument to Mark that in the free market one man's loss is another man's gain.  You are claiming that the existence of cheap cell phones on the market somehow represents a loss to you.  When you do this you are asserting a Platonic (non reality based) standard of loss and gain.

Thus, I am quite correct when I place you in the same catagory as Sara who like you also demands individual rights and freedom and yet at the same time claims that other people have certain positive obligations to her.   She wants egalitarian social justice and you want egalitarian market justice.  A market which has an obligation  to fulfill your (and I assume everyone else's) specific  preferences.  When it doesn't accomplish this you claim that you are suffering a "loss".

 - Jason

(Nuclear power has been shown to be quite safe.  I am assuming though that in Germany just like in America the power plants have a government backed monopoly and thus cannot be placed in the same catagory as things provided by the free market like the "shoddy" cell phones you are complaining about.)




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Post 93

Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 12:52pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks Jason and Ed.

Vera, part of my difficulty in getting my points across is that our world views clash. Since many of our fundamental explanations of how the world works are in conflict, naturally we understand and explain events very differently.

I like your description of being accused of selfishness as a child because of your assertiveness. I also like your criticism of the contemporary narcissistic attitude that whatever one wants one is (somehow) entitled to. What I appreciate about both statements is their implication that people have a responsibility to identify and achieve what is objectively important and good. In some cases, what is objectively good is so for every human being, e.g. the need to be honest and productive. In other cases, what is objectively good for an individual depends on traits or circumstances unique to her. But in either case, what is good and important are objectively true.  

"Free market" economics explains and proves that the optimal condition necessary for one to achieve what is important in one's life is capitalism. I stress this point because many of your statements are implicitly hostile to individual freedom in the realm of economics. For example, you've stated that rational producers, seeking their own betterment, would produce goods of which you approved; however, "shoddy" merchandize (that dumps environmental "costs" on others) and "pollution" are evidence of widespread irrationality. The clear implication is the State should step in to direct production to save the environment. But even if you were to argue that the state should not step in, your position suggests that people left to their own choices in the market are destructive of what is objectively important in your life.

So here we face an important issue: would you be better able to achieve what is objectively important if people were entirely free to make their own choices, for better or worse, in a market economy that defends private property and individual autonomy? Or would you be better able to achieve what is important if the state tried to direct individuals to make what you believe are good choices?

And we face a corrollary issue: how does one know whether or not claims made about the alleged dangers of various technologies, such as cell phone radiation, are really true? For example, if the dangers of cell phone radiation causing cancer have not been proven, then claims that people who use "shoddy" cell phones somehow threaten harm to people who choose not to use cell phones are reckless. Or to use another example of reckless unproven claims: political "reformers" dislike tobacco smoking and want to outlaw it. However, they know that in the West, people still respect individual freedom to some degree: if people smoke and die as a consequence, many people think, that's their business. So "reformers" make stuff up about the dangers posed to non-smokers by "second-hand" smoke. However, these dangers are unproven. The largest study to date, conducted by the UN, found no statistically significant health consequences from long-term exposure to second hand smoke.

Sadly the same tactics are routinely used in the environmental movement. To get what they want, green crusaders often tell lies to a largely unsuspecting public. So clearly, the burden of proof lies squarely on the shoulders of those who claim that apparently peaceful activities somehow "threaten" other people, and so ought to be regulated.

As concerns each subject--economics and external costs imposed on others--the crucial issue is: what is proven and what is unproven? The only means of resolving these issues responsibly, the only means of deciding what conditions truly serve your interests or threaten them, is to make sure you know what is true and what is false.

Since a great deal has been written and taught on the subject of economics that is grotesquely misleading, may I presume to recommend a book you might enjoy?
Friedrich Hayek's The Road to Serfdom, which has probably been published in German, is a classic explanation of how state "solutions" always tragically collide with reality. I hope you don't mind the suggestion.




Post 94

Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 2:23pmSanction this postReply
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Jason - just forget it - will you???

Mark: thanx for your patience to work this through - from where I currently stand I think the discrepancy is what a rational free society and market would amount to and what our current society and market are like in reality (at least what I have met with)

for the free society and market you discribe as ' ... a market economy that defends private property and individual autonomy ... ' I completely agree with you - under such circumstances my individual autonomy would be protected and we could haggle it out which study is actually more accurate as to rationally provable harmful effects of certain production - may the better proof prevail

where I have some doubt is how to defend that individual autonomy in a market that is ruled by irrationality and mass-production at all cost? much as I'd prefer to deal with a Hank Rearden I have to face the fact that my producer will more likely be an Orren Boyle

and just to get this point out of the way once and for all: I am AGAINST state intervention and regulation as they are even worse at protecting me than any 'greedy capitalist' could ever be - so please stop implying that that is the consequence of my desire to protect myself - same goes for your presenting me the alternative between 'greedy capitalist' and 'looser state' - there must be other choices

so instead of my anarchistic choice to blow up everyone in self-defense who threatens my livelihood (warning: that was a sarcastic statement), what is your proposal to curbtail the irresponsible second-hander who is currently also flourishing under your defense of a free market? and is supported by a large mass of second-hander consumers to support his crap production? to take ambiguity out of the equation let's take the unsafe nuclear reactor which has been proven as unsafe without counter-studies saying otherwise - how would I protect my individual autonomy in that case? petition the state to close it down? rationally argue with the proprietor of the facility? educate the millions of second-handers around me to trade their cheap electricity for a little safety? merde - I cannot even blow it up to protect myself!

as for the more ambiguous cases I'd concede defeat to the point that I cannot go into a statistics and studies battle with you (that's more Ed's domain) - what I can assure you of though, is that my information was based on information collected to the best of my ability, in some cases even based on studies made by the cell phone producers and the tobacco industry themselves - needless to say they came to another conclusion than the UN study you are citing - but this brings us to the real crux: do I have to become an expert on every issue that might threaten my welfare because the so-called experts keep contradicting themselves? who is more right in this battle of 'falsified statistics' against 'prejudiced studies'?

which brings me to my second problem which is more of a question - I know personal experience is no objective proof so my argument is not even going there - but what would you suggest I do when I find myself having respiration problems after living for ten years in cities (for work) when before that I was a marathon-runner and I could slow down my breathing to one breath per minute? put it down to mere chance instead of air pollution? change my job and become a banana-farmer in the Amazon forrest? what can I do against sudden stabbing head-aches when I'm walking past a mobile phone tower? put it down to my own physical weakness and pretend that 'there's nothing going on'?

if any of your books can answer those questions I'll gladly take your suggestions - as for Hayek I've read short excerpts of his work some years ago - to my taste he was dealing too much with 'state' problems and I'm not a political person - as Joe can testify from our politics discussions ;-)




Post 95

Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 2:51pmSanction this postReply
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what can I do against sudden stabbing head-aches when I'm walking past a mobile phone tower? put it down to my own physical weakness and pretend that 'there's nothing going on'?

Are there any studies which give anything scientific on this, or is this annecdotal?




Post 96

Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 3:31pmSanction this postReply
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in my particular case it's only my personal experience (anecdotal?) - I haven't had it checked out at a clinic - there are studies however that show a causative factor with some individuals getting headaches but not in a representative group - also nothing (yet) to link it to brain tumors or tissue damage directly - one recent study by the EU could prove DNA damage caused by mobile radiation, but only in the laboratory, not 'in the field' ... which brings us to the next step in this discussion, that long-term effects can, as the name suggests, only be proven over a longer period of time - when it's already too late to prevent the damage and we're back to cleaning up messes

Ed: maybe you can come up with more studies to answer Robert's questions?




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Post 97

Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 4:31pmSanction this postReply
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I asked this because of similarity to those making complaints on high power electrical lines in this country.  Also, there are two at least craveats on this, without suggesting that either applies to you - one, psychosomatic - that indeed there is a physical reaction, but that it stems not from the object so much as the reaction subconsciously to the object - and two, that one must recognise again the Bell curve, that even among the 'normal' range, there is a variation of sensitivity to different affects, let along among the whole of the range.  Like it or not, humans are biological entities with the same curve of viability in the world as other living organisms, meaning that some have no business surviving from a biological standpoint, and do so only thru 'artificial' help, whether medication or apparati or whatever.  Radiation is part of the universe at large - indeed, life stemmed and was bathed in radiation - so to claim it as a negative per se only admits to lack of understanding reality.  The same to be said of the electromagnetic.  To claim it  as pollution is merely to say it 'disagrees' with you personally, not that it by its nature is innemical to life.

As for the power lines, all objective studies so far indicate it does not breed tumors and two-headed children.




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Post 98

Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 4:57pmSanction this postReply
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to take ambiguity out of the equation let's take the unsafe nuclear reactor which has been proven as unsafe without counter-studies saying otherwise - how would I protect my individual autonomy in that case?
You could always just move away....that's what most people do when they're sick of where they live.  Canada has some awesome wide open spaces; no reactors, no people, and no industry.  Just a lot of furry animals eating and pooping and making baby furry animals.   :) 

But you'll no doubt find "risk" even there, I suppose.  Drowning, bear attacks, stumbling into lost hikers, stuff like that.

There isn't a "safe" place on the planet, I'll bet.

I wouldn't try to "fight city hall," (American saying meaning to fight a supposed losing battle), I'd just move to a place that better suited my needs to live. 

 but what would you suggest I do when I find myself having respiration problems after living for ten years in cities (for work) when before that I was a marathon-runner and I could slow down my breathing to one breath per minute? put it down to mere chance instead of air pollution? change my job and become a banana-farmer in the Amazon forrest? what can I do against sudden stabbing head-aches when I'm walking past a mobile phone tower? put it down to my own physical weakness and pretend that 'there's nothing going on'?
Well, yeah, it would be better for you to become a banana farmer than try to twist the lives of millions of people around to please you, or a handful of Vera's, over disputable evidence.  
Isn't that what private industry has done to you? Twist your life around? You don't have to take it, you can just move.  I'm not trying to be flip here, I'm serious.


 




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Post 99

Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 6:52pmSanction this postReply
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Vera,

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Ed: maybe you can come up with more studies to answer Robert's questions?
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Ask ... and ye shall receive ...

[Ed waves his magic wand to summon up the most recent and relevent evidence on the matter] ...


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Mobile phones, mobile phone base stations and cancer: a review. Int J Radiat Biol. 2005 Mar;81(3):189-203.
 
... review of the over 1700 citations assembled by the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE) International Committee on Electromagnetic Safety as part of their updating of the IEEE C95.1 RF energy safety guidelines.
 
Biophysical considerations indicate that there is little theoretical basis for anticipating that RF energy would have significant biological effects at the power levels used by modern mobile phones and their base station antennas. The epidemiological evidence for a causal association between cancer and RF energy is weak and limited. Animal studies have provided no consistent evidence that exposure to RF energy at non-thermal intensities causes or promotes cancer. Extensive in vitro studies have found no consistent evidence of genotoxic potential, but in vitro studies assessing the epigenetic potential of RF energy are limited. Overall, a weight-of-evidence evaluation shows that the current evidence for a causal association between cancer and exposure to RF energy is weak and unconvincing.
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Comment: Not very alarming.
 

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Do magnetic fields cause increased risk of childhood leukemia via melatonin disruption? Bioelectromagnetics. 2005;Suppl 7:S86-97.
 
For childhood leukemia, a doubling of risk has been associated with exposures above 0.3/0.4 microT. Here, we propose that the melatonin hypothesis, in which power frequency magnetic fields suppress the nocturnal production of melatonin in the pineal gland, accounts for the observed increased risk of childhood leukemia. Such melatonin disruption has been shown in animals, especially with exposure to electric and/or rapid on/off magnetic fields. Equivocal evidence has been obtained from controlled laboratory magnetic field exposures of volunteers, although the exposure conditions are generally atypical of neighborhood exposures. In contrast, support for the hypothesis is found in the body of studies showing magnetic field disruption of melatonin in human populations chronically exposed to both electric and magnetic fields associated with electricity distribution.
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Comment: You can always supplement with cancer-preventative melatonin at night (to hedge your bets). Tangent: That is, unless the evil Dick Durbin succeeds with that nasty adverse event report legislation -- where he called vitamins: "drugs" (hint for the merely moderately astute: "drugs" are that which require "regulation" -- do you see where THAT is going?)


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Cellular phones and cancer: current status Bull Cancer. 2005 Jul;92(7):637-43.

Although some biological effects on cell culture have been observed, their link with human cancer development is far from established. Most of the animal studies show negative results. Epidemiologic studies lack a sufficient perspective to be able to evaluate the effect of evolving technologies used today.
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Comment: Original article is in French -- so it can't be trusted as much.  ;-D


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Microwaves from GSM mobile telephones affect 53BP1 and gamma-H2AX foci in human lymphocytes from hypersensitive and healthy persons. Environ Health Perspect. 2005 Sep;113(9):1172-7.

In the present study, we investigated effects of MWs of Global System for Mobile Communication (GSM) at different carrier frequencies on human lymphocytes from healthy persons and from persons reporting hypersensitivity to electromagnetic fields (EMFs). We measured the changes in chromatin conformation, which are indicative of stress response and genotoxic effects, by the method of anomalous viscosity time dependence, and we analyzed tumor suppressor p53-binding protein 1 (53BP1) and phosphorylated histone H2AX (gamma-H2AX), which have been shown to colocalize in distinct foci with DNA double-strand breaks (DSBs), using immunofluorescence confocal laser microscopy. We found that MWs from GSM mobile telephones affect chromatin conformation and 53BP1/gamma-H2AX foci similar to heat shock. For the first time, we report here that effects of MWs from mobile telephones on human lymphocytes are dependent on carrier frequency.
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Comment: This study is available in full-text at:
http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/members/2005/7561/7561.html


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The electromagnetic fields of cellular phones and the health of children and of teenagers (the situation requiring to take an urgent measure) Radiats Biol Radioecol. 2005 Jul-Aug;45(4):442-50.

Direct indicators of electromagnetic influence can be infringement of sleep, decrease of the memory, fatigue, breach of a blood-brain barrier permeability, changes in nervous cells of a brain. As the remote consequences the development of tumors of a brain and acoustic nerve are predicted. However all these results require the realization of independent repeated researches. WHO (World Health Organization) recommends to use "Precautionary principle" with the purposes of decreasing of the risk. Russian National Committee of Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection recommended to limit the use of CP by children and teenagers under 16 years old (2002, February 2004).
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Comment: Origin in Russian.


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Childhood cancer in relation to distance from high voltage power lines in England and Wales: a case-control study. BMJ. 2005 Jun 4;330(7503):1290.
 
RESULTS: Compared with those who lived > 600 m from a line at birth, children who lived within 200 m had a relative risk of leukaemia of 1.69 (95% confidence interval 1.13 to 2.53); those born between 200 and 600 m had a relative risk of 1.23 (1.02 to 1.49). There was a significant (P < 0.01) trend in risk in relation to the reciprocal of distance from the line. No excess risk in relation to proximity to lines was found for other childhood cancers. CONCLUSIONS: There is an association between childhood leukaemia and proximity of home address at birth to high voltage power lines, and the apparent risk extends to a greater distance than would have been expected from previous studies. About 4% of children in England and Wales live within 600 m of high voltage lines at birth. If the association is causal, about 1% of childhood leukaemia in England and Wales would be attributable to these lines, though this estimate has considerable statistical uncertainty. There is no accepted biological mechanism to explain the epidemiological results; indeed, the relation may be due to chance or confounding.
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Comment: Caution: This one took some "heat." Check out the incendiary comments, in a letter entitled Power to Confuse, by a guy named -- and no, I'm not making this up folks! -- by a guy named Watts ...
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/330/7503/1293


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In vitro effects of GSM modulated radiofrequency fields on human immune cells. Bioelectromagnetics. 2005 Dec 8; [Epub ahead of print]
 
Despite the important role of the immune system in defending the body against infections and cancer, only few investigations on possible effects of radiofrequency (RF) radiation on function of human immune cells have been undertaken.
 
For each parameter, blood samples of at least 15 donors were evaluated. No statistically significant effects of exposure were found and there is no indication that emissions from mobile phones are associated with adverse effects on the human immune system.
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Comment: This "8-hours of intermittent radiation" in-vitro study has limited inferential capacity.


Ed








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