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Post 20

Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 12:24pmSanction this postReply
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Merlin: Exactly. That's the point I was trying to make. Being a judge or juror isn't usually a life threatening occupation.

Sam




Post 21

Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 2:12pmSanction this postReply
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Merlin,

It's debatable what sort of sanctions would be enough to ensure the epistemological validity of a verdict. I think there have been many death penalty cases that don't come close. Ultimately, I think there should be a very small subset of cases that ever become death penalty cases. Those with multiple victims over a period of time and cases where the evidence is incontrovertible.

Jim




Post 22

Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 2:26pmSanction this postReply
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Considering the recent insanity involving Paris Hilton, I naturally wonder how anyone can trust courts and justice to dispense justice. Using that same reasoning, I find it hard to be in favor of the death penalty.

The state where I was born and raised--West Virginia--has no death penalty and has a very low crime rate.




Post 23

Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 2:29pmSanction this postReply
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Jim: "The epistemological standard for the death penalty should be: beyond any doubt."

"Beyond any doubt" would cover doubt that's unreasonable, Jim (e.g., the claim that an alien spirit might have beamed into a man's body to kill an innocent person, or the claim that a man's unknown evil twin might have committed the crime). The burden of proof in the U.S. criminal justice system, including in death penalty cases, is "Beyond a reasonable doubt," already the most stringent epistemic standard possible without considering the absurd. This contrasts sharply with the civil justice system, where the government just has to show a defendant is probably guilty.

Unfortunately, the system still gets it wrong sometimes.

(Edited by Jon Trager on 6/12, 2:34pm)

(Edited by Jon Trager
on 6/12, 4:28pm)

(Edited by Jon Trager
on 6/12, 4:29pm)




Post 24

Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 3:04pmSanction this postReply
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Jon,

I think the cases against Gacy, Dahmer, Bundy, Eichmann and many others were beyond any doubt.. I don't think the Scott Peterson case met that standard, although I do think there was enough evidence to convict.

Jim




Post 25

Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 3:06pmSanction this postReply
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The state where I was born and raised--West Virginia--has no death penalty and has a very low crime rate.

Probably because it's had a Bird-brain running amoke thru it all these many years, and has frightened the H-ll out of everybody....;-)

[then again, what is there to steal besides coal dust?]




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Post 26

Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 3:28pmSanction this postReply
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Bill is absolutely right that Nathaniel Branden argued against the death penalty with Rand's sanction. I do have a problem with saying that Objectivism opposes the death penalty, though. For the record, I favor the death penalty, and have argued for it in the past. But let me explain some of my problems here:

1.) There is a belief among many Objectivists that our current justice system is too flawed. I find that to be a reasonable argument, whether it's true or not. (Of course, it would be an argument for more exactly standards and methods, not an argument against the death penalty) If this were the argument, it would be an application of a philosophical position. It wouldn't be the philosophy itself. Otherwise, we'd all have to believe women shouldn't be Presidents, Reagan was a terrible President, etc., etc. But note that this is not what Branden's article argues.

2.) Instead, Branden argues in this case for a philosophically derived skepticism. Instead of saying the current system is flawed, he says it's impossible not to be flawed. Humans are fallible, therefore in every single case(!), there's a chance of mistake. This is questionable. But even if you accept it as true, it doesn't make a case against the death penalty. It can be argued that as humans, we have to act on human standards. We should avoid mistakes, especially when the consequences are large, but we have to act anyway. The possibility of a mistake cannot prevent us from taking any action at all, or life would be impossible.

3.) Branden makes the statement "It is preferable to sentence ten murderers to life imprisonment, rather than sentence on innocent man to death". This is critical to his argument. The skeptical position in #2 above doesn't mean we shouldn't have a death penalty. It only argues that a mistake is possible (or inevitable, perhaps). But when you combine it with this value judgment, you get your argument. One problem with this argument is the lack of justification for it. Why is it the case? Is it the case if its a hundred murderers? A thousand? 10 million?

4.) It continues with the claim that some form of restitution is still possible given life in prison, but not in the death penalty. The first problem I have with this is whether you can make restitution for taking years away from a person's life, not even mentioning the brutality that exists in many prisons. I guess you can say "some form" of restitution is possible, but how hollow it must be for the poor man.

5.) My second disagreement with the restitution argument is that putting someone in jail for life may result in them dying in jail, either from old age or murder. How do you pay restitution then? If we're going to throw around the argument that the courts are fallible, why doesn't it apply here? How about if I add "Better to let a hundred guilty men go free then to imprison a single innocent person". If we're going to argue that a possible error should prevent us from acting in one way, why doesn't it apply to another? Why not argue against any imprisonment or punishment, as it might violate the rights of an innocent man? And more importantly, why isn't the principle that explains or makes sense of all of this addressed in the Branden article?

6.) Finally, this argument doesn't discuss the nature of justice, and the effects of having laws that seem to violate justice. Is justice an integral part of the criminal justice system, or is that just a name?

In my view, if we want to say that Objectivism says this or that, it can't be just words that happened to be approved by Rand. They need to be philosophical principles, not just applications. They need to be justified and integrated with the rest of the philosophy.




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Post 27

Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 4:42pmSanction this postReply
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Bill quotes Branden: As he states, "The problem involved is that of establishing criteria of proof so rationally stringent as to forbid the possibility of convicting an innocent man."

Perhaps Rand hadn't formulated the idea of the contextuality of knowledge at this point?* There never could be such a standard. Man must act upon what he knows beyond a reasonable [or contextually appropriate standard of ]doubt. This applies in all cases.

One cannot claim:"The difference is that in the case of the convict, he has already been disarmed and is the hands of the criminal justice system. Whether he is executed or spends life in prison is irrelevant from the standpoint of a threat posed to potential future victims." First, the killer is a threat to his guards and fellow inmates. Second, killers can escape, be paroled by capricious governors (as in Illinois) and so forth. Unless we are going to encase such people in rubber, there is no way to remove this threat.

What is the number of innocent people executed compared to the number of murderers who have killed again after conviction? I'll bet that since the supreme court revisited the death penalty, the number of murderers who have killed non-inmates after conviction is far higher than the number of innocent people executed.

Finally what mattered about whether or not Branden's remarks were an "essay" was first, my integrity - I don't like to be seen as making arbitrary and false claims - and I didn't, and second, I had said that the position was open, meaning that in effect there was no definitive position taken in a formal essay the way there had been about the gold standard. Greenspan, an economist, wrote a several page "authoritative" paper on the matter. Objectivism has a pretty fully fleshed out economic theory. But this remark of Branden's was not an essay per se and was not the definitive statement of a theory of justice or jurisprudence. As with Rand's remarks on gun control, it was a prima facie position not a final conclusion.

One can ring the death penalty about with protections. One can insist there be a corpse. One can require eyewitness testimony or DNA evidence. But one cannot say a priori that there will never be sufficient evidence ever to execute a premeditated killer. [And the moral principle that a killers life is forfeit is, of course, unquestioned as a moral principle.]

My assertions remain: No system of justice can claim absolute certainty, and Objectivism does not hold that there is "absolute" certainty - only human certainty. If a murder is committed and an innocent man is convicted in good faith then the moral responsibility for his death lies solely with the original killer. If he is recklessly convicted or framed the guilt lies with the reckless parties or those who framed the convicted man - and these parties should be punished. A murderer remains a threat so long as he lives. For society to have to support such killers for life is an abomination. One cannot fail to act frozen in the fear that some innocent bystander may be injured - this risk is minimizable, but not unavoidable. If one wishes to raise the standards fine - but saying that the standard cannot ever be met is inconsistent with the entire thrust of the Objectivist ethics and epistemology. Requiring some individual or individuals to bear the burden of executing a death warrant is a solution. And Texas has open borders, if you don't want to live there, you can move to Rhode Island.

Ted Keer

*This is irony. Galt's speech makes it clear she had.


(Edited by Ted Keer
on 6/12, 6:58pm)




Post 28

Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 7:32pmSanction this postReply
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Erica, JHN, Merlin, et al., James' "interesting notion" was mine, as made at length in post #2,Warrants of Execution.

The person who executes the warrant of execution would be the one subject to forfeiture of his own life, but only upon a hearing at which the person who executed the warrant could defend himself by showing, for instance, that a policeman had fabricated evidence. In that case, the policeman himself would be subject to the death penalty if the fabrication were proven at trial.

Ted Keer



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Post 29

Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 7:40pmSanction this postReply
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If you think that executions have any effect on the homicide rate, then you need to explain these FACTS.
 

YEAR

2005

2004

2003

2002

2001

2000

1999

1998

1997

1996

1995

Michigan

6.1

6.4

6.1

6.7

6.7

6.7

7.0

7.3

7.8

7.5

8.5

Texas

6.2

6.1

6.4

6.0

6.2

5.9

6.1

6.8

6.8

7.7

9.0

West Virginia

4.4

3.7

3.5

3.2

2.2

2.5

4.4

4.3

4.1

3.8

4.9

Wisconsin

3.5

2.8

3.3

2.8

3.6

3.2

3.4

3.6

4.0

4.2

5.1

NATIONAL RATE

5.6

5.5

5.7

5.6

5.6

5.5

5.7

6.3

6.8

7.4

8.2


 

Complete table of states from http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=169&scid=12 and note that states with no death penality are in Yellow. 

 

 I live in Michigan which abolished the death penalty in 1847. I included Wisconsin and West Virginia because they were in the discussion here.  Go to the site and look at the rates for Iowa and Maine.

 

Murder as a social activity is complicated. 

 

 

(1) I am a criminal justice professional.

 

(2) I agree that many criminals seem to lack "impulse control."  However, I side with Dr. Stanton Samenow and Robert Bidinotto on this.  That seeming lack is more a matter of self-reporting than empirical fact.  Criminals tend to be calculators.  My construct or filter or paradigm is that a felon commits 50 anti-social acts that harm other people before he is caught.  In short: there are no first-time offenders.

 

However, like Sam Erica, being white and educated, I stand very little chance of being wrongfully accused of much except, maybe, a white collar crime.  I met a black deputy sheriff, now retired, considering a run for the sheriff's spot, a man who is known here locally.  When pulled over, he always puts his hands on the ceiling of the car and prays that it is someone he knows.  Think about that.

 

Watch this:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/dna/

 

Credible eyewitness victim... profile prior offenses... two fair trials....  and not guilty....

 

We run our criminal justice system on

the Soviet Agriculture Model

What else could the outcome be?

 

Laissez nous faire -- NOW!

 

 

 




Post 30

Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 7:47pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

I gladly give you precedence for this idea :-). It's apparent that something has to be done to set the epistemological standard as high as possible in death penalty cases.

Jim




Post 31

Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 8:01pmSanction this postReply
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Well, James, we all know that no single individual ever truly originates any idea, they are just floating about in the atmosphere of a culture, as determined by that culture's material circumstances.

Ted





Post 32

Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 8:31pmSanction this postReply
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MEM: "However, like Sam Erica, being white and educated, I stand very little chance of being wrongfully accused of much except, maybe, a white collar crime.  I met a black deputy sheriff, now retired, considering a run for the sheriff's spot, a man who is known here locally.  When pulled over, he always puts his hands on the ceiling of the car and prays that it is someone he knows.  Think about that."

I take your point and that is certainly something to consider. However, the negative effect on blacks or other racial groups that may be discriminated against isn't quite as cut-and-dried as you have portrayed. Law abiding blacks living in areas ridden with crime might well accept the same method of assessing their position on the death penalty. Even though their probability of false conviction may be greater they also may have greater benefit from executions — if the deterrent effect is real.

This would be similar to a non-terrorist arab-looking Muslim welcoming profiling at airports on the basis that he will be a passenger and would like the best probability of not being blown up.  

Sam




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Post 33

Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 9:04pmSanction this postReply
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On capital punishment, I agree with Joe Rowlands; I disagree with Branden (and by extension Rand). I find that the traditional Objectivist position on the death penalty, which argues for a platonic, metaphysical certainty of guilt, completely contradicts the Objectivist epistemology and the requirements of both reason and justice.

If the standard of "no death penalty except in cases of absolute certainty of guilt" were epistemologically valid, then, in logic, it ought to apply to any use of deadly force. In fact, we should never use force in ways that might risk the possibility of killing innocents.

But are death penalty opponents truly prepared to make that leap?

Consider a thought experiment. You are a private, armed security guard returning home from work. You are walking down a street when someone rushes out of a building just ahead of you. Right behind him emerges a man wielding a gun. The armed man begins shooting at the fleeing man. You are shocked, thinking you are witnessing an attempted murder in progress. Instinctively, you draw your own weapon. "Stop!" you yell. The armed man continues to fire at the running man. "Stop or I'll shoot!" you scream. The gunman yells something unintelligible to you while continuing to fire. To protect the fleeing man, you fire at the gunman and hit him. He falls and then dies.

Only later do you learn that the fleeing man has just stabbed his girlfriend to death in that apartment building, and that the gunman you killed was an off-duty cop in the neighborhood who responded to a neighbor's emergency 911 call and was trying to stop the killer from getting away with murder.

Now, should you have refused to intervene until you had "perfect knowledge" of the circumstances and the gunman's guilt? Or, did you act reasonably, given the information available to you?

Far-fetched? Not really. Police often enter crime scenes and have to make split-second decisions about the use of deadly force based on woefully incomplete information. So do soldiers fighting in populated areas where innocent civilians are inherently at risk. After all, how can a police officer absolutely know that the man he told to "freeze" is reaching for a wallet or a weapon? And how can a soldier in Baghdad absolutely know that the vehicle speeding toward his checkpoint is a civilian rushing his pregnant wife to a hospital or a car bomber about to annihilate him and his buddies? How can a bomber pilot going after the armed enemy absolutely know that his bomb won't cause "collateral damage" among innocent civilians?

If deadly force shouldn't be used except in cases of "absolute" (metaphysical) certainty of guilt, and where no innocent people can conceivably be put at risk, we would find ourselves constrained to a de facto pacifism. If the view that "ten murderers should live rather than one innocent person be killed" is valid, then we should disarm our police and soldiers, because they are, unavoidably, going to accidentally kill some number of innocents while defending us against the bad guys.

Just how "absolute" was Rand's own view on this issue? You will recall that at the end of Atlas Shrugged, in rescuing Galt and Rearden, Dagny, Francisco, and Ragnar did not hesitate to act as judge, jury, and executioner on the spot. Dagny, in fact, executed a guard simply for hesitating to comply with her orders. Did she "absolutely" know this stranger and his personal context before blowing him away? Maybe he was there under some coercive inducement. Maybe he didn't know that Galt was innocent. Maybe he didn't even know that Galt was the prisoner. So just how "absolute" is Rand's requirement of knowledge of guilt, anyway?

In response, some will argue that the death penalty is different because the use of deadly force is not in response to an "emergency" requiring immediate action, but only in ex post facto retaliation against someone already captured and confined. True; but that is still irrelevant to the epistemological argument against the death penalty. That argument holds that because innocent life is so valuable, it shouldn't be taken in any circumstances except where there is absolute metaphysical certainty of guilt. So, if the anti-death-penalty case is now qualified to mean "No use of deadly force except during emergencies," then the "absolute certainty" requirement is not very absolute, is it?

And once the platonic, metaphysical standard of certainty is dismissed, what argument remains against the death penalty as an act of justice in the case of pre-meditated murder?

In no other area of life do we employ "absolute (metaphysical) certainty" as our standard of judgment. In judging people, we instead employ the "contextual (epistemological) certainty" -- the standard of REASON. Thus, in a courtroom, we determine innocence or guilt by the standard of "REASONABLE doubt." Why, in this single area of the law, do we feel the need to chuck the standard of reason and submit instead to a platonic standard of UNREASONABLE doubt?

Furthermore, as others like Erica have observed, there are many cases in which there is ABSOLUTELY NO QUESTION that a murderer committed his ghastly deeds, that his crimes were calculated and pre-meditated, and that he was legally sane while committing them. Most serial killers and mob hit men are perfect examples. If they are caught red-handed (literally), what could possibly be the remaining argument for keeping them alive at the taxpayers' expense?

Finally, I reject the argument from deterrence as the relevant rationale for the death penalty -- just as I reject other utilitarian arguments for other criminal penalties. The point of punishing a bad person is not its deterrent effects on others; it is the administration of proportionate justice to that bad person. The point of putting a Hitler to death is not that it might deter a future Saddam, or that putting a Bundy to death might deter a future Dahmer. It is that Hitler, Saddam, Bundy, and Dahmer all deserved to die for their heinous crimes.

Turn the argument around: Do we reward good individuals solely because we want to encourage their neighbors to be good? Or do we reward good people because they deserve it? Then why should we punish criminals because of any future potential deterrent impact on others? Shouldn't we punish them because of what THEY did -- and in direct proportion to the harm done?

I have much more to say about all of this in my essay "Crime and Moral Retribution," which argues for a justice-based standard of criminal sanctions -- including capital punishment.




Post 34

Wednesday, June 13, 2007 - 2:23amSanction this postReply
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With no unread posts here, I clicked on the link to the Lew Rockwell page, and it brought up this random past article, which while not specifically about the death penalty, is still interesting and relevant.



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Post 35

Wednesday, June 13, 2007 - 5:18amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

A more rigorous epistemological standard should be applied in death penalty cases because the penalty is irreversible. It is one of the many mitigating factors considered in the penalty phase of a trial.

There are many cases in which human beings can have metaphysical certainty rather than contextual certainty. The standard separating the two is whether there is the possibility that new evidence could be introduced to exonerate the defendant. If there is then we have only contextual certainty. If not, we have metaphysical certainty. One of David Kelley's quotes from the 1994 Summer Seminar comes to mind:

" If we hang a man we want to be certain, not certain within the context of our knowledge."

Of course there is a sense in which all certainty is contextual, but we can achieve metaphysical certainty in those cases which are airtight against any new evidence which could be introduced.

Jim




Post 36

Wednesday, June 13, 2007 - 8:26amSanction this postReply
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In Post 33, Robert Bidinotto speculated:
Consider a thought experiment. You are a private, armed security guard returning home from work. You are walking down a street when someone rushes out of a building just ahead of you. Right behind him emerges a man wielding a gun. The armed man begins shooting at the fleeing man. You are shocked, thinking you are witnessing an attempted murder in progress. Instinctively, you draw your own weapon. "Stop!" you yell. The armed man continues to fire at the running man. "Stop or I'll shoot!" you scream. The gunman yells something unintelligible to you while continuing to fire. To protect the fleeing man, you fire at the gunman and hit him. He falls and then dies.

Only later do you learn that the fleeing man has just stabbed his girlfriend to death in that apartment building, and that the gunman you killed was an off-duty cop in the neighborhood who responded to a neighbor's emergency 911 call and was trying to stop the killer from getting away with murder.

Now, should you have refused to intervene until you had "perfect knowledge" of the circumstances and the gunman's guilt? Or, did you act reasonably, given the information available to you?
A somewhat similar tragedy took place at the September 2005 Citrus Bowl game in Orlando, Florida.

You can read a report at

http://www.wftv.com/news/7164673/detail.html

Sadly, the catalyst for the tragedy arose via law enforcement requirements to monitor the area for underage drinking!




Post 37

Wednesday, June 13, 2007 - 10:24amSanction this postReply
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On the Sword of Truth Forum - Philosophy - there is a thread where there is a death penalty discussion related to whether or not the guilty party understands why he is being executed.  It goes something like this - he admits and understands he committed the murder, but believes Satan runs the courts or something so thinks he is being executed for an irrational reason.  I think it is a whole lot of nothing, because I fail to see why it matters what the person thinks or does not think of their own punishment, and this is independent of whether or not they were criminally insane at the time.

That is a forum for Terry Goodkind's books - lots of collectivists there despite the books - so I am trying to work on some of them (at least until I realize the futility of it).  I am the one with the Bun-Bun icon.

Bun-Bun:  http://images.google.com/images?um=1&tab=wi&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLG%2CGGLG%3A2006-20%2CGGLG%3Aen&q=bun-bun

Website:  http://www.prophets-inc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=22 under the "Scott Panetti" thread.




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Post 38

Wednesday, June 13, 2007 - 11:41amSanction this postReply
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In reply to James (post 35):

What would the "metaphysical certainty" of guilt look like? You define it as excluding even the metaphysical possibility that new facts could be introduced. But what is rationally (epistemologically) "possible," and what is "metaphysically possible," are not the same at all.

A "metaphysical possibility" is one that can exist within the realm of physical law. It is metaphysically possible that the 9/11 attacks were orchestrated by a gigantic conspiracy within our own government, using foreign-recruited Muslim extremists as cannon fodder. It is metaphysically possible that UFOs are space visitors, and that tales of alien abductions are true. It is metaphysically possible that I could sing a solo in Italian at the Metropolitan Opera six months from now.

But are any of those things rational (epistemological) possibilities? Are they remotely realistic, within the full context of our factual knowledge? Of course not.

We do not act and make decisions based on what is metaphysically possible, i.e., conceivable as a physical possibility, however remote. We must act based on contextual knowledge and degrees of certainty about it.



The standard of the law in criminal convictions is very high: it is "beyond a reasonable doubt." To change the standard to what is, in effect, "beyond an UNREASONABLE doubt," is...well, not REASONABLE. We must make judgments based on evidence, not speculative "metaphysical possibilities" (as in the O.J. Simpson case). It may be conceivable (metaphysically possible) that a murder eyewitnessed by a hundred people "really" could have really been the product of mass hypnosis by space aliens conducting an experiment on the human race. But is there any evidence for such a thing?

Let's not annihilate reason and justice in the quest for platonic, irrational "perfect knowledge." It doesn't exist and can't exist. Knowledge can NEVER be "metaphysically certain"; it can only be "contextually certain."

But that's quite good enough.



(Edited by Robert Bidinotto
on 6/13, 11:44am)




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Post 39

Wednesday, June 13, 2007 - 1:41pmSanction this postReply
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Robert wrote:

The standard of the law in criminal convictions is very high: it is "beyond a reasonable doubt." To change the standard to what is, in effect, "beyond an UNREASONABLE doubt," is...well, not REASONABLE. We must make judgments based on evidence, not speculative "metaphysical possibilities" (as in the O.J. Simpson case). It may be conceivable (metaphysically possible) that a murder eyewitnessed by a hundred people "really" could have really been the product of mass hypnosis by space aliens conducting an experiment on the human race. But is there any evidence for such a thing?


This is a strawman, just as Jon Trager's tack was a strawman. It is, in fact, quite easy to come up with many cases in which people found guilty  were subsequently exonerated by the diligence of private citizens without the use of aliens or conspiracy theories . Robert is quite right that the beyond a reasonable doubt standard is sufficient in determining guilt or innocence in a criminal trial and sometimes a jury  will return a verdict that violates the instructions of the beyond a reasonable doubt standard, such as the O J Simpson verdict. But then such juries are not even convinced of guilt of  a serious charge even when there is video footage of the incident, such as the Reginald Denny case.

However, the widespread existence of error is a known fact about our criminal justice system. Given that fact, it is prudent to remain skeptical of many states' abilities to administer the death penalty in a way that ensures that innocent men will not be killed by the state. It is also prudent to demand that a more stringent epistemological standard apply to the penalty phase in capital cases.

Jim

P.S. In many cases there is significant evidence that favors the defendant which is insufficient to attain an acquittal according to the reasonable doubt standard. None of this evidence