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Post 40

Wednesday, June 13, 2007 - 3:19pmSanction this postReply
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In a followup post to the above. I treat the death penalty like I would treat safety issues at my job at Intel. I don't operate in an environment that is unsafe, period. There are many people whose contextual certainty is not up to the task of operating safely. Likewise many jurors', prosecutors' and judges' contextual certainty is not up to the task of rendering a correct verdict. Until they can demonstrate the six sigma, zero defects performance of a world-class manufacturing organization, they are not trustworthy in matters of life and death.

Jim




Post 41

Wednesday, June 13, 2007 - 5:23pmSanction this postReply
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On contextual certainty:

Certainty requires a standard and a set of tests to determine the reliability of conclusions over time. Possessing "contextual certainty" of course says very little about the quality of my statements and arguments. It simply means that everything I say is logically consistent with the facts I have at my disposal. What if I'm not very ambitious about gathering facts and what if I gather the wrong facts?

The way to determine how reliable a system is is to establish performance benchmarks over time. A knowledge system makes conclusions from facts at its disposal during short periods of time. Over a long period of time we can make quite accurate characterizations about the reliability of a  system by measuring it against benchmarks. The question concerning the death penalty is: is the US judicial system reliable enough to preside over issues of life and death. This is a statistical issue that requires a rigorous mathematical standard.

Like contextual certainty, the beyond a reasonable doubt standard tells us nothing about the performance of the system. As I said in my previous post, the death penalty requires performance in the league of the safety performance of a world class manufacturing organization or a modern nuclear power plant. Anything less is unacceptable. I'm not an expert about what the reliability rate is of the US legal system, but I very much doubt it meets that standard.

Jim

(Edited by James Heaps-Nelson on 6/13, 6:27pm)




Post 42

Wednesday, June 13, 2007 - 5:42pmSanction this postReply
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Two issues, James. First, how does that fact that people who have wrongly been convicted of capital crimes have be exonerated show that there is a problem with the system? Is it not exactly the fact that they have been exonerated that shows that the system works?

Second, you say that the state should not have the power to execute criminals. What objections do you have in my argument in post#2? You have not explained why my proposal of issuing warrants of execution to individuals willing to bear the consequences is unacceptable. The standard in the death penalty phase of a capital case is moral certainty. If I am morally certain that a person is a killer, certain enough to put my own life on the line to execute him, what is your objection? Will you yourself offer to house, guard and feed this killer yourself? Or do you find that putting the lives of guards, other inmates, and the general populace at risk, as opposed to the risk of executing killers, is comparatively insignificant?

Ted Keer



Post 43

Wednesday, June 13, 2007 - 6:21pmSanction this postReply
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Two issues, James. First, how does that fact that people who have wrongly been convicted of capital crimes have be exonerated show that there is a problem with the system? Is it not exactly the fact that they have been exonerated that shows that the system works?

Second, you say that the state should not have the power to execute criminals. What objections do you have in my argument in post#2? You have not explained why my proposal of issuing warrants of execution to individuals willing to bear the consequences is unacceptable. The standard in the death penalty phase of a capital case is moral certainty. If I am morally certain that a person is a killer, certain enough to put my own life on the line to execute him, what is your objection? Will you yourself offer to house, guard and feed this killer yourself? Or do you find that putting the lives of guards, other inmates, and the general populace at risk, as opposed to the risk of executing killers, is comparatively insignificant?
Ted,

Issue #1:  Statistics would tell us that if there are a significant amount of wrongful convictions for life in prison and the death penalty overturned in over a period of time ,say 20 years, in some  states, if we have states that execute a representative population of prisoners faster than the time it takes for a segment of the population to be exonerated, we can be reasonably sure we've killed innocent people.

Issue #2: Ted this is an intriguing idea, although I would include trained judges in the pool. It costs about $3 to 5 million to execute someone, including legal costs. You could probably offer $250,000 and up  to a judge willing to pronounce a death verdict and put his life on the line in doing so.

Jim





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Post 44

Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 6:12amSanction this postReply
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Jim,
It seems that your approach is the same as the Precautionary Principle used by those who oppose the use of any device, technique, or material that has not been shown to be 100% safe.
Thanks,
Glenn




Post 45

Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 6:45amSanction this postReply
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There's a difference, Glenn. My life doesn't depend on whether a killer is sentenced to life in prison or the death penalty. Also, I'm perfectly happy using products that say caveat emptor there are risks involved.

Notice also that the legal system is unwilling to admit the statistical near certainty that they have executed innocent men.

Jim




Post 46

Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 9:17amSanction this postReply
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Anyone reading this thread that is interested in these issues should read Robert Bidinotto's compilation Criminal Justice?. It's a terrific book. I don't agree with him on the death penalty, but I do agree with just about everything else he has to say about the penal system. Some of the worst aspects of the justice system are plea bargains and parole. A life sentence should mean life without parole.

Jim

(Edited by James Heaps-Nelson on 6/14, 9:25am)




Post 47

Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 12:34pmSanction this postReply
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Let's not annihilate reason and justice in the quest for platonic, irrational "perfect knowledge." It doesn't exist and can't exist. Knowledge can NEVER be "metaphysically certain"; it can only be "contextually certain."


I will concede a point to Robert B about "metaphysical certainty". Sometimes I am imprecise and I deserved this comeback, partly because he made this same argument in rejoinder to something I said on SOLOHQ about 2 years ago.

I'm looking for a concept to communicate how I think "contextual certainty" is squishy. I favor an approach that emphasizes correspondence to reality and the correspondence theory of truth over integration and coherence. I tend to emphasize more stringent tests of correspondence to reality prior to fitting everything together. I tend to be very acutely aware of the problems of having an incomplete dataset. The term "contextual certainty" seems to emphasize integration in the face of an incomplete dataset, that is, we do the best we can with what we've got and call it certain. Well, if we don't have enough data we're not certain.

So we face  this problem  of determining what is essential in a dataset and what can be ignored. Many times in criminal trials we are faced with not having all of the essential evidence. In these cases, juries will often return a verdict of guilty if there is no exonerating evidence. This is proper under the beyond a reasonable doubt standard, but I don't think it is enough in death penalty cases. In death penalty cases I think you have to have enough essential evidence to form an unbreakable tie between the defendant and the crime.

Jim




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Post 48

Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 1:06pmSanction this postReply
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"My life doesn't depend on whether a killer is sentenced to life in prison or the death penalty." JHN

This is asserted with an unwarranted conviction and is based on a false assumptiom. Ever heard of the true story of Norman Mailer and Jack Henry Abbott? This case alone shows that imprisoning murderers is a guarantee of nothing. Likewise, the fact that you do not feel threatened by people serving life sentences merely means that you are obviously not a prison ward, guard, do not live near a prison, and likely don't know anyone who has been murdered. You probably aren't afraid of being struck by lightening either, but it kills thousands a year.

Of course, subjective judgments of risk mean nothing.

This in no way proves my case, but the love of my life was murdered in a botched car-jacking. (God bless the killer's own mother who turned him in.) At that time, the death penalty was not an option. And while I would probably strangle the killer to death with my own hands if I ever met him, I find some solace in the fact that he is in jail and thanks to his mother's supreme decency, I am able not to dwell on his killer, I mourn only my loss.

So long as most killers live, they remain to be quite a threat.

Ted Keer



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Post 49

Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 2:22pmSanction this postReply
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Robert Bidinotto threw down a gauntlet: If the standard of "no death penalty except in cases of absolute certainty of guilt" were epistemologically valid, then, in logic, it ought to apply to any use of deadly force. In fact, we should never use force in ways that might risk the possibility of killing innocents.
But are death penalty opponents truly prepared to make that leap?

I may be.  This is something I am working toward, but the path is not clear.  It's like proving a theorem.  Your posts are the challenges but at the same time the guideposts.  I sanctioned 33 and 38 because they raise the right issues. 
 
"... we should never use force in ways that might risk the possibility of killing innocents."
 
Admittedly, that is a tough standard.  However, being willing to kill innocents opens an inquiry into a calculus of death.  As you note quite succinctly, the standard 10 guilty for 1 innocent is arbitrary.  You asked about thousands and millions.  I ask about eleven...  18... 192...  87 adults and 43 embryos?...  How many collectivists are worth one Objectivist?  The final solution is a poison for those who would commit suicide. 
 
I'd rather invent ways to avoid taking innocent lives than to justify the taking of innocent lives.
 
But, I grant you, Bob, that your opinions are the most cogent.  Answering them -- and I owe you others -- will be a thesis.  I'll let you read the draft.
 
Mike M.




Post 50

Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 4:42pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks to all -- especially to James and to Michael Marotta -- for a very thoughtful exchange. It's nice to hash out important issues with intelligent, knowledgeable, and civil people. Thanks also for your generous comments about my past writing.

These days, I have very limited time to participate in online discussions, except when an issue of special interest to me arises. The death penalty is of particular interest to me mainly because it bears so heavily on wider questions of what constitutes "justice," and on the epistemological standards we use in rendering critical life-and-death decisions. But please don't think that my sudden departure from a discussion at any point implies contempt for the participants. I have this little matter of a magazine to put out each month, and it's probably best that I focus on making that a successful enterprise.



Post 51

Friday, June 15, 2007 - 10:00pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

I'm glad you could join us for whatever time you are able given the constraints of  The New Individualist. It's always a treat to hear your take on an important issue. Good luck with the magazine and its important outreach.

Jim




Post 52

Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 5:33pmSanction this postReply
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Ted, I wanted to reply to your death warrant idea.  Before addressing it directly, it brings up another related argument.  If someone who goes to jail or is executed eventually is found not-guilty, should the judge and jury (and police, and appeals courts, etc., etc.) go to jail themselves?  Taking the best case, these are people who worked hard to make sense of the evidence, knew that for anyone to live that criminals had to be put away, and went with the evidence.  The fact that the evidence ended up being misleading is not their fault.  Errors can happen even under best case conditions.

The question then is, were these people unjust?  In a kind of cosmic sense, you might say there was an injustice.  This is the same kind of sense where a person's house burns down even though they're a good person and it wasn't their fault.  He didn't deserve that result.  But in both cases, there was no person being unjust.  Acting on their best knowledge, they treated him how he deserved to be treated.  In terms of morality, they were practicing the virtue of justice.  They didn't decide he deserved one thing, and treated him in another.  Their actions were in every way justifiable.  So why would they be punished?

Similarly, you could ask whether or not they initiated force.  Again, in some kind of cosmic sense, if we had omniscience, we would recognize that they were in fact the first party of these two parties to initiate force.  But again, this blurs the reasons why an initiation of force is bad.  It's not just that damage is done, but that one party has decided that he wants to use violence against another to get his way.  This is why an accidental killing is treated very different from a murder case.  The damage done is one part of the problem, but the intent of the criminal is another.  In this case, if we said the jury had initiated force against the defendant, it would completely obscure what had actually happened.  The jury, acting on behalf of the government, evaluated the evidence under objective rules and methods designed to create an accurate assessment.  The executioner or jailor acted on this judgment again on behalf of the government.

So if someone argued for executing the jury, or even throwing them into jail, the right question to ask is "for what reason?".  There was no crime.  These people are performing a necessary function.  Through following the agreed upon procedure for dealing with potential criminals, they made what was, at the time, the right decision.

The problem I have with the death warrants is that I don't see these as being any different from the existing system, except to say that the executioner (or jailor) himself would be allowed to be convicted.  If, through a proper procedure a man is found guilty, there is and should not be anything punishable by putting that judgment into effect.  If the government decides that the person is guilty through a legitimate procedure, and says he should be punished, there should not be later convictions.

Properly, we act on the best information we have.  We make the courts objective through method and in application (through a process of appeals if necessary).  The decision made is the best we can make, and we need to act on it.  And anyone who does is  perfectly justified in acting on it.  If later some new evidence comes out, nobody can or should be blamed for not being omniscience.




Post 53

Sunday, June 17, 2007 - 5:19pmSanction this postReply
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Joe, I used the term in good faith to imply that if a judge and jury follow the proper forms yet reach a false conclusion then they are not morally culpable:

"The consequence of living in a state which shuns capital punishment out of squeamishness is the ascendancy of those who are happy to kill knowing they shall at worst run the risk of some day being pardoned or having their sentences commuted. The risk of living in a state which allows capital punishment is the vanishingly small chance that a person who would have died a natural death in any case will die too soon because the state erred in its otherwise appropriate attempt to see that justice be done. The moral blame for that error lies not with the agents of the state acting in good faith. It lies solely with the actual murderer."

Perhaps I would do better to submit this and my ideas on suicide as articles. I am a bit busy right now, but shall attempt to do so.

Ted



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Post 54

Sunday, June 17, 2007 - 9:03pmSanction this postReply
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My issue with the death penalty is that the majority of individuals polled on it, foresee it as a tool of revenge and not a tool of justice. Consider how often people speak in malice toward an accused murderer (and I say accused in that without evidence that's all the person is), not about whether justice will be served, but rather they speak of wishing to murder the murderer themselves. That's a telling behavior that I see in folks, one which scares the hell out of me. If the mob mentality of revenge is what we predicate the concept of the death penalty for capital crimes (of murder and mayhem), then that sort of concept will be doomed to fail the measure of justice, which requires objectivity and detachment of personal feelings on the accused being considered. Facts, evidence, and the concept of ultimate restitution are the foundation of justice, not one's 'feelings' toward an accused person.

-- Brede



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Post 55

Monday, June 18, 2007 - 10:09amSanction this postReply
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My issue with the death penalty is that the majority of individuals polled on it, foresee it as a tool of revenge and not a tool of justice. Consider how often people speak in malice toward an accused murderer (and I say accused in that without evidence that's all the person is), not about whether justice will be served, but rather they speak of wishing to murder the murderer themselves. (Brede)

Brede has an interesting point.

I was, at first, going to remind her that the prosecutors, the judges, etc. are not personally invested in "revenge"...until I remembered that these people are elected by the public.

Again, here in Illinois, two men, Rolando Cruz and Alex Hernandez, were convicted, and one (Cruz) sentenced to death, for the horrible rape and murder of a 10-year old girl, Jeanine Nicarico. (This crime occurred in 1983.) They were later exonerated, and the real killer, Brian Dugan, was revealed as well.

http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2005/11/backgrounder_th.html


This crime occurred in an affluent suburb of Chicago, and the victim's parents still count the District Attorney who originally tried the case as a "friend." (This despite the fact that there were issues of contradicting evidence popping up that prosecutors ignored until they were forced to recognize them---an assistant attorney general assigned to fight the appeal of Hernandez actually resigned in protest, and Cruz had a total of three trials before exoneration!) 

It was the horrific kind of case that needed to be solved quickly to appease public sentiment, facts be damned. And there are people, including the victim's parents, who still firmly believe that the the two exonerated men must have been involved somehow...despite ALL evidence to the contrary. They literally can't let go of that notion, and they feel no outrage at having been misled for over 20 years, only at the evil journalists and lawyers who championed the case for innocence for the two men. Being proven wrong has not changed their minds at all. Now, I find that terribly sad, but not frightening.

This is what scares the hell out of me...that prosecutors will keep fighting to keep their original judgment and sentence intact because the alternative is political suicide.

Despite concrete DNA evidence, as well as a "detailed admission of the crime by the real killer" (from the article in the link), the grieving parents of this child still hate Cruz and Hernandez, having believed them to be guilty for so long, thanks to inexcusably shoddy (evil?) police work by law enforcement, (and what appears to be a continued coverup by elected officials, who couldn't afford, politically, to admit their grievous error.) 

I agree with Ted about a false conclusion reached in good faith. But consciously ignoring glaring evidence of your error, in order to keep a man on Death Row to maintain your "image" is an entirely different matter.

Erica




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Post 56

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 12:11amSanction this postReply
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Brede, I don't entirely agree with your post 54.  I think there's a difference in understanding about what justice entails.  For instance, you seem to think it seeks restitution primarily.  That's would certainly help in overcoming the injustice of a crime.  The victims deserve to have the damage done to them undone.  But what about the perpetrator of the crime?  Doesn't he deserve anything?

One thing I've run into too frequently is the view that actually giving the perpetrator of a crime his just deserts is not objectively valid.  It's written off as 'blood-lust', 'revenge', or even 'sadism'.  I think these views are derivative, though.  The major issue is in people's theories of justice.  If you view the criminal as a "victim of his environment", certainly any call for actual punishment is considered cruel and ignorant.  If you view justice as primarily about deterring future criminals, then there's nothing personal, even if you give him the death penalty.  It's not about him.  It's like a surgical procedure.  It needs to be done, but you don't personalize it in any way.

And then there's the theory that justice is about giving individuals what they deserve.  Retribution.  It is personal.  It is all about the criminal's acts, and him incurring the pain he was so willing to inflict on others.

Justice does have objective demands.  There are questions of guilt or innocence.  There is the concept of proportional punishment, since he is being punished for his particular crime.  These are serious questions that need objectivity.  But this kind of threat to our values and lives should not be simply dismissed on an emotional level. We should be angry!  We should want justice.  We should want him to receive what he's been inflicting on others.

In other words, the fact that people want the murderer to die (or suffer) for his crimes is not in conflict with justice.  It's based in justice.  Revenge is based on justice.

Now some people will argue the revenge, or may vengeance, is just about hurting the other person, and steps out of the bounds of an objective response.  Certainly that's possible, and probably all too common.  But those who think a desire for revenge is completely separate from justice seem to miss the point.  Revenge, or the desire for it, stems from an initial injustice (or feel of injustice), and an attempt to make the perpetrator of that injustice pay for it by receiving the harm he inflicted on others.

In short, the desire for revenge is not something to despise.  We have to recognize that the desire, like any other desire, can lead to new and even greater injustices.  Objectivity should be a rule in every endeavor, and especially when it comes to the the use of force.  But that doesn't negate revenge.  It's simply demands that it say within the realm of the objectively appropriate.




Post 57

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 6:22amSanction this postReply
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A look at Natural Law theory is also useful when thinking about justice - Ed had a good post about that before.



Post 58

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 11:15pmSanction this postReply
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Brede, I don't entirely agree with your post 54. I think there's a difference in understanding about what justice entails. For instance, you seem to think it seeks restitution primarily. That's would certainly help in overcoming the injustice of a crime. The victims deserve to have the damage done to them undone. But what about the perpetrator of the crime? Doesn't he deserve anything?


I think restitution is the primary function, but restitution must be symmetric, in that the perpetrator, when possible, must be the one doing the restituting. Not the State, not my tax dollars, but the perpetrator. In some cases, this is why I also support punishments like hard labor as part of a sentence. Also, the punishment, by the definition of the word, must educate the perpetrator as to why what s/he did is wrong. Now, for some folks, they will always be, and have been, thugs, and there's little if any redemption for them. In such cases, the capital crimes 'punishment' should be death, but only if the evidence weighs out for it.

One thing I've run into too frequently is the view that actually giving the perpetrator of a crime his just deserts is not objectively valid. It's written off as 'blood-lust', 'revenge', or even 'sadism'. I think these views are derivative, though. The major issue is in people's theories of justice. If you view the criminal as a "victim of his environment", certainly any call for actual punishment is considered cruel and ignorant. If you view justice as primarily about deterring future criminals, then there's nothing personal, even if you give him the death penalty. It's not about him. It's like a surgical procedure. It needs to be done, but you don't personalize it in any way.

I totally agree.

-- Brede



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