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Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 5:30amSanction this postReply
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Obviously, he didn't follow every rule in the Bible to a "T" -- or he'd be dead, maimed, or incarcerated. He supposedly asked "permission" to stone others to death. This event could be good or bad. Good if it wakes folks up to the inherent repulsiveness of the Holy Word of God, our Heavenly Savior (something Ethan's recent YouTube finding has demonstrated). But bad if it overwhelming inspires others.

I'm on the fence until further comments are made by others here -- so that I can first acquire a global, 360-degree understanding of the specific dynamics of this issue. I like to do that before coming down hard on one side or the other.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 9/22, 5:34am)




Post 1

Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 11:52amSanction this postReply
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Intellectual Onanism

What's to discuss, Ed? This is a publicity stunt, somewhere between David Blaine & that movie Super-Size Me. Did Jacobs give up Onanism? If not, did he cut off his hand?

Rather than trying to goad me (as if your allusion referred to anyone else in Ethan's thread) into some sort of nonsense-exchange over a non-issue, put your real and valuable efforts to better use. I could have ignored you here, but I value your real contributions well enough to tell you that this is beneath you.

Ted Keer

(Edited by Ted Keer on 9/22, 3:45pm)




Post 2

Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 3:58pmSanction this postReply
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Or Meaningless Scribbles, Sounds on the Wind?

One topic actually worth considering might be whether texts instantiate themselves. Do collected ancient scrolls actually command anything, unless people accept their interpreters as authorities? Do the arguments of pacifists make us or our borders safe? Does Goedel's theorem actually prove incompleteness, or does the attempt of certain "logicians" to accept his equivocations over what "this sentence is false" refers to prove only that theoreticians also can be fools? Does the Constitution itself guarantee us a republic without the necessary (but grantedly insufficient) condition of one entity holding a monopoly of force ruled by its principles to establish what it authorizes?

Ted Keer




Post 3

Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 10:18pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

To be honest, I didn't even read the comments below Ethan's YouTube submission. I've had far less time and energy lately. I'm glad you brought it up, though. Had you not, then you might've stayed quiet and seethed with inappropriate discontent. Here are attempts to answer your pointed questions ...

Do collected ancient scrolls actually command anything, unless people accept their interpreters as authorities?
Please provide a more generous "interpretation" of the vengeance on the Midianites found in Numbers 31:15-18 (where innocent young boys are to be slaughtered while young virgin girls are to be "taken"). Is there a good way to interpret the killing of innocent children?

Do the arguments of pacifists make us or our borders safe?
No. Please state your point.

Does Goedel's theorem actually prove incompleteness, or does the attempt of certain "logicians" to accept his equivocations over what "this sentence is false" refers to prove only that theoreticians also can be fools?
The latter.

Does the Constitution itself guarantee us a republic without the necessary (but grantedly insufficient) condition of one entity holding a monopoly of force ruled by its principles to establish what it authorizes?
No, our Constitution doesn't guarantee us an ethical minarchy. Again, please state the relevance here. Are you attempting to say that there's no hierarchy of interpretations? That they're all equally reasonable? That it's all relative?

Stop insinuating and simply state your premises.

Ed




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Post 4

Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 11:35pmSanction this postReply
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Ed, I detect a lot of seething in all your recent posts. I say this as a friend. When I am upset by someone's behavior on this list, I mark his post unread and respond a week or a month later, or just keep silent. I do assume you can see how I might think that your post was motivated by Ethan's given your wording.

In any case, my point on both threads had nothing to do with the Bible per se, but with attacks on texts as if texts were the problem. The Bible is relatively innocuous except for the Tanakh, especially Leviticus and Deuteronomy and some children getting eaten by bears. After all, the Amalekites, the Midianites, the Jebusites, the Canaanites, and so forth are all dead. While the would be victims of the throat-slitters do, of course, make up 5/6th of the current population of the planet. But I digress.

But what makes the book dangerous is not that the Bible exists but that people try to substitute the interpretations of demagogs (who may claim biblical, or koranic, or Maoist, or Nazi or other texts as their authorization) for their own conscientious moral thought. Books don't read themselves, they are not (contra Dawkins and his stupid meme theory like viruses) able to hijack men's minds. They are merely smudges of pigment on cellulose, sitting on shelves. The evil, the repulsivity, lies in the minds of those who use fairytales to dupe the gullible, and in the minds of the gullible themselves.

Imagine if the bible were written in a heretofore unknown language, and were dug up buy an archaeologist and translated. Would you call the book evil? No. But you would call evil any man who tried to commit evil acts that the book described or its writers advocated. Yet those evil prescriptions could be in the Book of Mormon or in the Turner Diaries or in any one of literally thousands of texts.

Calling the Bible itself evil is lazy, ambiguous, and wrong. Is the song of songs evil? Is the story of the creation evil? The Bible is some six dozen books some of which tell stories, some of which are good poetry or mediocre wisdom sayings, some of which call on long dead races to kill each other, and some of which describe how many doves to burn in the temple or whom to stone to death under what circumstances. Yet the book itself doesn't stone anyone.

Objectivism is about clear thinking, not about praising any attack on the Bible you happen to come across. And it is certainly not about shilling for idiots who think not shaving for a year and asking people if they would like to be stoned to death is a stunning exercise in intellectual bravery.

Ted Keer



Post 5

Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 6:16amSanction this postReply
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Ted, your post 4 reply is awesome.

A Seether? ...
I find myself a little short on extended, intellectual-generosity lately. I don't want to agree with you on this point (that I'm that imperfect), but I fear that I might have to -- due to the current weight of relevant evidence on the matter.

A Reacter? ...
Ted, when you're upset with folks, you bookmark them and respond when you're not so hot about it. Yet some of my best writing has been penned while frothing at the mouth like a rabid dog. I'd rather not suspend the MoJo -- IF you know what I mean. So verily I say unto thee: from each according to his unique ability to respond to reality ...

A Fast-Breeder Reactor?
Hehe. Just joking here now. I don't yet have any kids. FBRs have outputs exceeding their inputs -- at least that's what engineers say. They're potential, perpetual-motion machines, like life is. But I digress. Now, back to the points of contention. You said:


... the Amalekites, the Midianites, the Jebusites, the Canaanites, and so forth are all dead. While the would be victims of the throat-slitters do, of course, make up 5/6th of the current population of the planet.
That's too literal, too concrete. An instance of what I have dubbed the Heisenberg fallacy (where precision is afforded higher priority than accuracy). Just the idea that killing innocents might be okay -- indeed, righteous -- is enough poison to corrupt an unsuspecting mind.


On Dawkins and the real "meme-ing" behind what he said about passed thought ...
 Agreed. And I suspect you and I are in an RoR minority on this one, friend.


On calling inanimate objects evil ...
Evil, spelled backwards, is live -- and anti-life existents abound. True, guns don't kill people -- but guns have objective value. Ideas can be evil. Indeed, that is how evil is expressed in the world. Mere acts aren't evil, unless they meet at least 2 criteria ...

1) performed by sapient beings
2) anti-life

Evil ideas are what it takes to meet these 2 criteria simultaneously. They are how we "purposely" fail to live. They are both the map, and the vehicle, for arriving at the destination of an unlived life. 

Is the song of songs evil?
Not as far as I can tell.

Is the story of the creation evil?
Yep.

Yet the book itself doesn't stone anyone.
Not literally, but alas, you digress (see above).

Objectivism is about clear thinking, not about praising any attack on the Bible you happen to come across.
This wasn't just any attack. It including a weighing of relevant evidence. It included a noncontradictory integration of objective identifications -- it didn't include unclear thinking.


On objectively-useless "idiots who think not shaving for a year and asking people if they would like to be stoned to death is a stunning exercise in intellectual bravery." ...

The alternative response you recommend involves silence on the matter -- which, though a stretch, could be seen as approval. My simple purpose was to take a stand for something so as not to be seen as falling for just anything. Sometimes the obvious requires explicit statement. I had felt that this was one of those times. I admit that this is something on which reasonable men might disagree.

;-)

Ed





Post 6

Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 8:28pmSanction this postReply
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Ed, thanks for the civil response. If you don't mind, I'll let the matter rest for the moment.

Ted



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