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Post 0

Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 6:30pmSanction this postReply
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Teresa,

I love satire, but the danger with it when presented in this form is that some people might take it to be the truth.  If you want people to turn their support away from Ron Paul, it's better to show his actual writings, so that people can make up their mind based on facts and not fiction.  Show why his positions are wrong by making clear arguments against them. 

And as satire goes, I didn't find this piece funny at all.  For me, things like genocide, the holocaust, and slavery,  aren't suitable subjects for parody.  But different things make different people laugh, so if you want to reply with "Is so funny!" go right on ahead! 

Eric




Post 1

Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 6:37pmSanction this postReply
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If this is satire, and I didn't know it was (good grief!) I'm asking the administration to please remove this news article from the front page, posthaste. 

Thanks.




Post 2

Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 8:16pmSanction this postReply
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I tuned in too late to read the offending item, but the more important point is that with this guy you can't tell.



Post 3

Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 8:19pmSanction this postReply
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Here's the link:

http://www.exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=13684&IBLOCK_ID=35

I removed it from the front page, as requested.





Post 4

Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 6:15amSanction this postReply
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but the more important point is that with this guy you can't tell
Well, maybe only if you can't tell the difference between the far fetched idea of adding universal health care and the far fetched idea of allowing people to opt out of social security.



Post 5

Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 6:20amSanction this postReply
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Teresa, I haven't heard any news of you starting a voluntary fund to finance the Team America World Police to go into Darfur. Or what are your plans on bringing them Capitalism?



Post 6

Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 6:28amSanction this postReply
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I don't know enough about him to be able to tell, Peter.   I'm embarrassed I fell for it.

Oh, and Dean, it's a long standing Libertarian idea that slavery in the US would have died out on it's own, without a war. Let the market take care of it, and all that.

(Edited by Teresa Summerlee Isanhart on 11/25, 6:43am)




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Post 7

Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 7:00amSanction this postReply
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Oh, and Dean, it's a long standing Libertarian idea that slavery in the US would have died out on it's own, without a war. Let the market take care of it, and all that.

"William Lloyd Garrison, the most prominent abolitionist in America, actually passed a resolution through his Anti-Slavery Society insisting that it was the duty of each member to work to dissolve the American Union. ... He held this view ...because he believed Northern secession would undermine Southern slavery. If the Northern states were a seperate country , the North would be under no constitutional obligation to return runaway slaves to their masters. The Northern states would then become a haven for runaway slaves. The enforcement cost of Southern slavery would become prohibitive, and the institution would collapse." (Woods, 63-64)

from "A Politically Incorrect Guide to American History", Thomas E, Woods, Jr. Ph.D.




Post 8

Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 1:39pmSanction this postReply
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"William Lloyd Garrison, the most prominent abolitionist in America, actually passed a resolution through his Anti-Slavery Society insisting that it was the duty of each member to work to dissolve the American Union. ... He held this view ...because he believed Northern secession would undermine Southern slavery. If the Northern states were a seperate country , the North would be under no constitutional obligation to return runaway slaves to their masters. The Northern states would then become a haven for runaway slaves. The enforcement cost of Southern slavery would become prohibitive, and the institution would collapse." (Woods, 63-64)


That's ridiculous, then why did the South want to secede from the North? It totally contradicts the idea that the North should secede because it would undermine slavery. Why then would the South want to undermine one of the very reasons why they wanted to secede? I think Garrison was flat-out wrong. The enforcement cost obviously wasn't a big issue for the South if they were willing to secede.



Post 9

Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 3:46pmSanction this postReply
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There was also, according to Perilous Times, the fact that most in the north did NOT want the runaway slaves up there, as it would disrupt the labor status quo....



Post 10

Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 7:45pmSanction this postReply
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There was also, according to Perilous Times, the fact that most in the north did NOT want the runaway slaves up there, as it would disrupt the labor status quo....
Robert, who wrote the book in question? At any rate, I had not heard that, but nonetheless I will concede that you may be right on that point. But even granting that the runaways were not wanted in the north, absent an obligation to respect fugtive slave laws, I doubt there would have been any incentive to block their emigration to Canada (which was a popular stop on the Underground Railroad, was it not)?




Post 11

Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 8:36pmSanction this postReply
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That's ridiculous, then why did the South want to secede from the North? It totally contradicts the idea that the North should secede because it would undermine slavery. Why then would the South want to undermine one of the very reasons why they wanted to secede? I think Garrison was flat-out wrong. The enforcement cost obviously wasn't a big issue for the South if they were willing to secede.
John raises a good point about a perceived contradiction. The South wanted to secede from the Union to preserve slavery, but this secession would in fact have led to the demise of the very institution it aimed to preserve.

Check your premises.

Dave Barry wrote a column once about the causes of the civil war. In elementary school you learn that the civil war was about slavery. But then in middle school you learn that it was really about states rights. Finally in high school you learn that it was really cause by economic tensions between the two parties.

Perhaps the answer to our perceived contradiction is that things are not as simple as we learned in elementary school.

I am not naive enough to discount slavery as a contributing factor, THE factor even, but neither do I think it is as black and white as we'd like it to be. I am not a civil war buff, so maybe I'm not the best person to ask. I suppose I could ask my wife's uncle, the one who waxes nostalgic about the Irish Confederates and does reenactments on the weekends; but he cornered me in the beach house last summer with a replica catalogue and once he gets going, he's hard to stop.

Perhaps you can justify the suspension of habeus corpus, the conscription of (hundreds of?) thousands of men, the raping, pillaging, plundering, burning etc. by believing that North was full of equality-minded abolitionists, and every Southerner owned a couple of slaves, but it's not the case. In truth the object was nationalistic obsession with preserving "The Union".

Perhaps there are some closet civil war buffs lurking that can confirm or correct my understanding of the events, but at any rate, you can draw your own conclusions.   




Post 12

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 12:06amSanction this postReply
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http://www.amazon.com/Perilous-Times-Wartime-Sedition-Terrorism/dp/0393327450/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1196237057&sr=1-1



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Post 13

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 5:58pmSanction this postReply
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Jonathan:

Dave Barry wrote a column once about the causes of the civil war. In elementary school you learn that the civil war was about slavery. But then in middle school you learn that it was really about states rights. Finally in high school you learn that it was really cause by economic tensions between the two parties.


Jonathan I'd say all of the three issues were true for the causes of the Civil war, but the latter two were ancillary. States' rights (which was an issue of whether a state had the right to perpetuate slavery) or economic tensions (the addition of new territories as slave states) all revolved around the issue of slavery.

Perhaps you can justify the suspension of habeus corpus, the conscription of (hundreds of?) thousands of men, the raping, pillaging, plundering, burning etc. by believing that North was full of equality-minded abolitionists, and every Southerner owned a couple of slaves, but it's not the case.


Number one I can't justify suspending habeus corpus or the other violations of liberty by the North, but it doesn't presume one can't pass a judgment on the good deed of ending slavery, which was what the North did. Just as taxation may be involuntary, it doesn't mean when those taxes are paid to lock up a murderer, one should not favor we lock up murderers because the injustice of forcible taxation, otherwise we are saying all bad acts are equally bad, and no value comparisons can be made between bad acts. The South wanted to continue its existence perpetuating slavery, it never had any legitimate right to its existence as an independent nation because of this. We can make a comparison between the two governments, and pass a judgment on that comparison on which one was worse. I'd say the continued existence of institutionalized slave labor camps was far worse than the temporary suspension of habeas corpus, but I'm also saying suspending habeas corpus was bad and suspending liberty is not necessary to winning a war.

In truth the object was nationalistic obsession with preserving "The Union".


Not so. The truth was the South felt threatened the Northern controlled federal government would outlaw slavery in the South and stop any newly formed territories from becoming slave states. Had the North let the South secede, the competition for newly acquired territories as admission to the Confederacy or the Union would undoubtedly lead to an eventual war anyways.



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