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Post 0

Friday, February 15 - 3:54pmSanction this postReply
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There are 2 possible reasons for a centralized national power to want to supercede the kind of provisions of the FISA law:

(1) for the Executive branch to be able to act on threats faster
(2) for the Executive branch to be wholly unaccountable to the Judicial branch of our government (to afford it arbitrary, centralized power)

Given the quote above, we know that we can dismiss option 1.

Ed




Post 1

Friday, February 15 - 4:04pmSanction this postReply
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Hail Caesar.....



Post 2

Saturday, February 16 - 2:11amSanction this postReply
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I have mixed feelings about Congress’ failure to act on the FISA restrictions.  On the other hand, I doubt if we have much to worry about until at least November 5th.  Osama bin Laden and his dedicated throngs of pious throat-cutters are unlikely to blow us up until well after either Clinton or Obama has successfully concluded their selfless crusade for 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.




Post 3

Saturday, February 16 - 6:12amSanction this postReply
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Have you ever heard of "the death of a thousand cuts"?

Bob Kolker




Post 4

Sunday, February 17 - 2:28amSanction this postReply
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Congress puts the United States in danger whenever it is in session. This has been true since 1787.

Bob Kolker




Post 5

Monday, February 18 - 11:15amSanction this postReply
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Bob, that's not entirely true.

Congress had some good moments. That is, until the Internal Revenue Act of July, 1862. After that, Congress went to hell in a hand-basket. But, before that -- for 75 long years -- Congress in this country was "cool." Here's proof of that.

:-)

Ed




Post 6

Monday, February 18 - 8:05pmSanction this postReply
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People who speak like Crockett did usually get sent to places like... The Alamo?



Post 7

Tuesday, February 19 - 4:38amSanction this postReply
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reply to post 5:

Really??? And just who (or what) passed the Alien and Sedition Act or the Fugitive Slave Act? It was Congreff who put the legal teeth into slavery.


Bob Kolker




Post 8

Tuesday, February 19 - 10:30amSanction this postReply
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Bob,

After that last remark of yours, my only issue with you here and now in this thread is going to have to be:

How am I supposed to save face after THAT kind of a refutation??

:-(

Ed
[seeking truth and enlarged understanding over counterfeit merit; "owns up" when he's been clearly beaten in a debate]



Post 9

Tuesday, February 19 - 4:25pmSanction this postReply
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Ed, I am not debating you. I just wanted to point out an historical fact you might have overlooked. I am not in any sort of contest or struggle with you.

Bob Kolker




Post 10

Tuesday, February 19 - 9:11pmSanction this postReply
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Bob,

I hope that there comes a time when you engage in an honest struggle/debate with me (a struggle for truth and understanding). I kid you sometimes but I do have (unspoken) respect for your mind.

:-)

And I'm here precisely for the struggle for truth, etc. -- I value it very much.

Ed



Post 11

Wednesday, February 20 - 4:10amSanction this postReply
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Ed writes:


And I'm here precisely for the struggle for truth, etc. -- I value it very much.

Ed


I respond:

No more or less than I. My "mission from God" is to tell the Emperor that he is bare ass naked. In this regard, Socrates is my role model.

His last words are famous: "I drank what???!!!!"

Bob Kolker




Post 12

Wednesday, February 20 - 8:59amSanction this postReply
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haha!

Bob, after getting the humor of Dan Akroyd's line "We're on a mission from God." (Blues Brothers) out of my head, I heartily agree with the rest. You ARE a socratic son-of-a-blank -- and I've been trying to get you to at least take a sip of the hemlock I'm selling.

:-)

Ed



Post 13

Wednesday, February 20 - 10:04amSanction this postReply
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His last words are famous: "I drank what???!!!!"

Only because he didn't have Kool-aid back then.....;-)




Post 14

Thursday, February 21 - 9:30amSanction this postReply
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More evidence of my dialectical demise in this debate (from wikipedia):
================================
In the response to the weakening of the original fugitive slave act, the Fugitive Slave Law of 1850 made any Federal marshal or other official who did not arrest an alleged runaway slave liable to a fine of $1,000. Law-enforcement officials everywhere now had a duty to arrest anyone suspected of being a runaway slave on no more evidence than a claimant's sworn testimony of ownership. The suspected slave could not ask for a jury trial or testify on his or her own behalf. In addition, any person aiding a runaway slave by providing food or shelter was subject to six months' imprisonment and a $1,000 fine. Officers who captured a fugitive slave were entitled to a bonus for their work. Slaveowners only needed to supply an affidavit to a Federal marshall to capture an escaped slave. Since any suspected slave was not eligible for a trial this led to many free blacks being conscripted into slavery as they had no rights in court and could not defend themselves against accusations.

[edit] Effects

In fact the Fugitive Slave Law brought the issue home to anti-slavery citizens in the North, since it made them and their institutions responsible for enforcing slavery. Even moderate abolitionists were now faced with the immediate choice of defying what they believed an unjust law or breaking with their own consciences and beliefs. The case of Anthony Burns fell under this statute. The Fugitive Slave Act brought a defiant response from abolitionists. Reverend Luther Lee, pastor of the Wesleyan Methodist Church of Syracuse, New York wrote in 1855:

“ I never would obey it. I had assisted thirty slaves to escape to Canada during the last month. If the authorities wanted anything of me, my residence was at 39 Onondaga Street. I would admit that and they could take me and lock me up in the Penitentiary on the hill; but if they did such a foolish thing as that I had friends enough on Onondaga County to level it to the ground before the next morning. The slaves could no longer take control over what they could never imagine. ”

Other opponents such as African American leader Harriet Tubman simply treated the law as just another complication in their activities. The most important reaction was making the neighboring country of Canada the main destination of choice for runaway slaves.

With the outbreak of the American Civil War, General Benjamin Butler justified refusing to return runaway slaves in accordance to this law because the Union and the Confederacy were at war: the slaves could be confiscated and set free as contraband of war.
================================

At LEAST it shows that people weren't obeying unjust laws (i.e., they had to be threatened with fines and jail) -- and that some folks had the nards to outright defy the thing in their entanglements with the judicial system. What this means is that even though some power-brokers in Washington had wrong aims -- U.S. Citizens saw through this B.S. and fought it.

This Law of 1850 put questionably-effective teeth into the earlier Fugitive Slave Act of 1793. If we start America's progressive downturn toward an immoral cesspool at 1850 (from a baseline of near-perfect morality), then we still had 63 good years in this country.

Ed



Post 15

Thursday, February 21 - 9:42amSanction this postReply
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On the dismissal of the Alien & Sedition Acts of 1798 as being any kind of relevant, acceptable, and sufficient evidence of U.S. immorality
===========

The A & S Acts were a coup de tat (gahd, my French sucks!) snow-job by the relatively-immoral Federalists and their president John (Quincy?) Adams. These bumble-heads had opposition from the get-go. The morally-superior Thomas Jefferson quickly reversed this bugger before any consequences ensued. In sum then, it's just a Machiavellian blip on the screen of the otherwise-unprecedented morality of early America.

Here's wiki-proof about that:

==============
While Jefferson did denounce the Sedition Act as a violation of the First Amendment of the United States Bill of Rights, which protected the right of free speech, his main argument on the unconstitutionality of the act was that it violated the Tenth Amendment: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." In 1798 when the Alien and Sedition Acts were passed, First Amendment rights did not restrict the states, as they now do. Jefferson more strongly argued the Federal Government had overstepped its bounds in the Alien and Sedition Acts by attempting to exercise undelegated powers. Apart from Virginia and Kentucky the other state legislatures, all of them Federalist, rejected Jefferson's position by resolutions that either supported the acts, or denied that Virginia and Kentucky could denounce it.[1]

The judicial redress for bad legislation under the doctrine of judicial review was not established until Marbury v. Madison in 1803; the Supreme Court in 1798, particularly Mr. Justice Samuel Chase, was openly hostile to the Federalists' opponents. The Alien and Sedition Acts were not appealed to the Supreme Court for review, although individual Supreme Court Justices, sitting in circuit, heard many of the cases prosecuting opponents of the Federalists.

In order to address the constitutionality of the measures, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison sought to unseat the Federalists, appealing to the people to remedy the constitutional violation, and drafted the Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions, which called on the states to nullify the federal legislation. The Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions reflect the Compact Theory, which states that the United States are made up of a voluntary union of States that agree to cede some of their authority in order to join the union, but that the states do not, ultimately, surrender their sovereign rights. Therefore, under the Compact Theory, states can determine if the federal government has violated its agreements, including the Constitution, and nullify such violations or even withdraw from the Union. Variations of this theory were also argued at the Hartford Convention at the time of the War of 1812, and by the Southern states just before the American Civil War.

The Sedition Act was set to expire in 1801, coinciding with the end of the Adams administration. While this prevented its constitutionality from being directly decided by the Supreme Court, subsequent mentions of the Sedition Act in Supreme Court opinions have assumed that it would be ruled unconstitutional if ever tested in court. For example, in the seminal free speech case of New York Times v. Sullivan, the Court declared, "Although the Sedition Act was never tested in this Court, the attack upon its validity has carried the day in the court of history." 376 U.S. 254, 276 (1964).

The Alien and Sedition Act was a set of laws that allowed the president of the time period to expel foreign citizens suspected of treason. The law made it illegal to oppose any measure of false or hostile words against the government. The law also applied to the government's policies.
==============

Ed



Post 16

Thursday, February 21 - 9:48amSanction this postReply
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Ed:


This Law of 1850 put questionably-effective teeth into the earlier Fugitive Slave Act of 1793. If we start America's progressive downturn toward an immoral cesspool at 1850 (from a baseline of near-perfect morality), then we still had 63 good years in this country.


Me:

Baseline of near perfect morality? Hardly. Slavery was given a pass in the Constitutional Convention held in Philadelphia. In addition to that, do recall the Whiskey Tax. Washington and his catemite Alexander Hamilton led a horde of 13,000 Federale Thugs into Penssylvania to collect an unjust tax of $.25 per barrel of whiskey (in those days gold was $20.00 an ounce) and to put down resistance to paying the tax. That was in 1794. Some morality that was!

If you look at U.S. history objectively you will find that it is hardly an exemplar of outstanding morality. The U.S. was less bad than the rotten kingdoms of Europe and the Oriental tyrannies, but it was far from perfect. Our Constitution was a kludge from the git-go and no less an intellect than Ben Franklin thought it would not last, even a generation before it had to be radically fixed. He was wrong. It lasted until 1861 and then the Republic broke. What emerged after the Civil War was a unitary national government, the sort that the Founders would have considered an abomination.

Bob Kolker



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